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AMA says, "Wait to register"

Old 02-01-2016, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
What's a reasonable amount of time to resolve these issues , in your opinion? The FAA got registration done in what 30 days?

Mike
It took much longer for the FAA to put the registration process in place, and it's not "done" yet. It will be an ongoing process, but it certainly didn't come to be in 30 days. As for the AMA getting nowhere fast and empty promises, what power do you think they have to change the mind of the FAA? What leverage does the AMA have that they are not utilizing? A pending lawsuit, and visits to congress, is that not enough? What specific relief are you looking for, to not have to register? Hardly a huge burden. What specific actions do you think the AMA should be doing at this point?
Old 02-01-2016, 06:47 AM
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quote from Edge "You have Chris P Brain pegged Jeffrey"


Did I really profile him that accurately ?

Do you know him personally?

Please let me know, if I was right about Chris , I am going to

buy $100 of Lotto , if I win, I will be able to fund my own lawsuit against the FAA.

Last edited by jeffrey solomon; 02-01-2016 at 06:50 AM.
Old 02-01-2016, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
What's a reasonable amount of time to resolve these issues , in your opinion? The FAA got registration done in what 30 days?

Mike
You're the one implying the time frame is unreasonable so why not tell us what's reasonable?
Old 02-01-2016, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
What's a reasonable amount of time to resolve these issues , in your opinion? The FAA got registration done in what 30 days?

Mike
They did what they wanted to do. It could take years to make them do what they do not want to do.
Old 02-01-2016, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffrey solomon
quote from Edge "You have Chris P Brain pegged Jeffrey"


Did I really profile him that accurately ?

Do you know him personally?

Please let me know, if I was right about Chris , I am going to

buy $100 of Lotto , if I win, I will be able to fund my own lawsuit against the FAA.
Talk is cheap Jeffy, lets see if you're a man of your word and post your picture of $100 of Lotto tickets purchased after the date of your post above.
Old 02-01-2016, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by porcia83
It took much longer for the FAA to put the registration process in place, and it's not "done" yet. It will be an ongoing process, but it certainly didn't come to be in 30 days. As for the AMA getting nowhere fast and empty promises, what power do you think they have to change the mind of the FAA? What leverage does the AMA have that they are not utilizing? A pending lawsuit, and visits to congress, is that not enough? What specific relief are you looking for, to not have to register? Hardly a huge burden. What specific actions do you think the AMA should be doing at this point?
1) From the time the registration recommendations were made ( 11-21-15) to the registration put in place (12-21) was 30 days.
2) "Ongoing process" which could go either way.
3)As far as the AMA it's been the same "we don't like it" ,"were against it" and the famous "were considering all avenues including legal action" . Even the AMA Government relations blog has gone silent. I've seen no results.
4) The AMA apparently has no leverage do they? The AMA is no longer a force in this matter. Al the visits to congress and lawsuits mean nothing without results.
5) What actions? We might as well just roll over and take it because we are apparently were not the force they wish we were.

Mike
Old 02-01-2016, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
They did what they wanted to do. It could take years to make them do what they do not want to do.
What do you mean years? I thought you just go to Washington and flip a switch? Even with travel from anywhere in the USA it shouldn't take more than a day or so.
Old 02-01-2016, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
What do you mean years? I thought you just go to Washington and flip a switch? Even with travel from anywhere in the USA it shouldn't take more than a day or so.
With enough palms greased it could be done just that quick. We (the AMA) can't play on that level.

Mike
Old 02-01-2016, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
1) From the time the registration recommendations were made ( 11-21-15) to the registration put in place (12-21) was 30 days.

The registration task force was announced back in October.

2) "Ongoing process" which could go either way.
3)As far as the AMA it's been the same "we don't like it" ,"were against it" and the famous "were considering all avenues including legal action" . Even the AMA Government relations blog has gone silent. I've seen no results.
4) The AMA apparently has no leverage do they? The AMA is no longer a force in this matter. Al the visits to congress and lawsuits mean nothing without results.

How much pull do you think a measly ~190k member organization has against the federal government? What leverage do really have? We have don't have much to offer the FAA in terms of leverage.

5) What actions? We might as well just roll over and take it because we are apparently were not the force they wish we were.

Legal action is always the most expensive and always the last resort.

Mike
..
Old 02-01-2016, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
With enough palms greased it could be done just that quick. We (the AMA) can't play on that level.

Mike
Why wait for the AMA? Start your own fund raising campaign and go to Washington, money in hand.
Old 02-01-2016, 07:15 AM
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"The registration task force was announced back in October."

Implemented in 30 days from recommendation to registration . That's some sort of record for the DC crowd. Were did I even mention the task force?

"How much pull do you think a measly ~190k member organization has against the federal government? What leverage do really have? We have don't have much to offer the FAA in terms of leverage.
"

Apparently not much at all that was my point.


"Legal action is always the most expensive and always the last resort."

I agree and feel it's a total waste of funds that will net zero results

"Why wait for the AMA? Start your own fund raising campaign and go to Washington, money in hand."

Those blood sucking politicians get enough of our money and their not getting anymore of mine than absolutely necessary. I'm getting to old for this crap you kids get all this sorted out.

Mike
Old 02-01-2016, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
With enough palms greased it could be done just that quick. We (the AMA) can't play on that level.

Mike
GeeZ. Even with Fox kicking them daily it took the FAA over a month to implement. You think you can get government workers to work that fast? BTW you have to remind them every Monday and after every Federal holiday.
Old 02-01-2016, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
My post was a statement, not an argument.

People don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. If you're not going to hire your own legal dream team and take your own legal action then what is your plan?

I thought the quote was:


People don't plane to fail, they fail to plane. (especially in DC, sorry Edge it's too soon)


That should be our new AMA motto



Why doesn't everyone in this post begin their own lawsuit Chris?

That's right, the whole gang, Oh wait, it might be better if we consolidate our grievances in a group lawsuit, whadya think about that ?

Hey wait ,I got even a better idea, since we all belong to a national organization with similar interests maybe that organization could sort of be the

general contractor, of all our grievances and bring the suit on our behalves. It might even be a more effective way of dealing with negotiiations

prior to litigation.

Nah!! I must be dreaming, that would never work.

Chris, I'll try to put it as simply as I can, I don't trust the AMAs commitment to resolving this situation satisfactorily.
The major issue is not registration, numbers,ceiling heights, FPV, those are all symptoms, not the causative problem. As I see it, the central issue is the FAA's corrupted interpretation of (not corrupt but corrupted from the intent of Congress, or what we wish to believe was Congress intent)
Rule 336 of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft. The AMA can respectfully shove all the so-called accomplishments and progress they
boast of in their blogs, if they fail to check, the FAA. We as a hobby will live and do live, with a shadow of further restrictions, perhaps immediate
restrictions hanging over us. If legal action turns out to be the only viable alternative after negotiations fail to produce the essential result as I just
defined above then we must be totally committed to the litigation. I have spoken to 3 top AMA guys, and when you bottom line them regarding
legal, man do they hem and haw about it. That attitude is not going to fly , at least not with me.


Their commitment to a lawsuit in my opinion is not pure and
resolute, they equivocate, and lose heart and offer excuses and obstacle, that is not exactly how you rally the troops by intentionally scaring them
with prognostications of bankruptcy if we pursue a lawsuit. They are not sharing their analysis of the costs and complexities of the legal action with their members. In fact, we as members are only informed of the Executive Council actions after the fact.

The Executive Council has never presented (at least to my recent memory) a memorandum saying
"Here is our analysis of the a potential lawsuit, we spoke to our legal team here is the costs we might incur broken down as reasonably as possible
for you to review, tell us what you think about it, we welcome your input regarding how we might proceed"

Now you might and others say: Well the Executive Council can't or shouldn't have to do that, they're not accounts or lawyers and you elected them
and whatever dam excuse you want to think of, but when decision are made about me and my friend and my hobby and information and reasons
are not reasonable or readily available I get suspicious.

Do you?

Oh, to answer your disingenuous question, no I am not planning to put together a "dream team" my team would not have time to do
much dreaming, but my plan is to hold the AMA accountable to their obligations to the membership, by calling them , following their actions
closely, offering suggestions, critiquing their actions and results, offering my service to them and working with them if their request is consistent with my beliefs, persuading other members to do likewise, as Bubba Blue said,"shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich... [pauses] That- that's about it.

If, the only way I can attain the lofty status of credibility with you is by bringing my own lawsuit, sorry Guy , gonna disappoint you, not going to
play that game,

I guess you will have one less person on your birthday list.

Last edited by jeffrey solomon; 02-01-2016 at 07:42 AM.
Old 02-01-2016, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffrey solomon
I thought the quote was:


People don't plane to fail, they fail to plane. (especially in DC, sorry Edge it's too soon)


That should be our new AMA motto



Why doesn't everyone in this post begin their own lawsuit Chris?

That's right, the whole gang, Oh wait, it might be better if we consolidate our grievances in a group lawsuit, whadya think about that ?

Good luck with that.

On the other hand perhaps there are some who feel the AMA is doing the right thing.

Hey wait ,I got even a better idea, since we all belong to a national organization with similar interests maybe that organization could sort of be the

general contractor, of all our grievances and bring the suit on our behalves. It might even be a more effective way of dealing with negotiiations

prior to litigation.

Nah!! I must be dreaming, that would never work.

Chris, I'll try to put it as simply as I can, I don't trust the AMAs commitment to resolving this situation satisfactorily.
The major issue is not registration, numbers,ceiling heights, FPV, those are all symptoms, not the causative problem. As I see it, the central issue is the FAA's corrupted interpretation of (not corrupt but corrupted from the intent of Congress, or what we wish to believe was Congress intent)
Rule 336 of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft. The AMA can respectfully shove all the so-called accomplishments and progress they
boast of in their blogs, if they fail to check, the FAA. We as a hobby will live and do live, with a shadow of further restrictions, perhaps immediate
restrictions hanging over us. If legal action turns out to be the only viable alternative after negotiations fail to produce the essential result as I just
defined above then we must be totally committed to the litigation. I have spoken to 3 top AMA guys, and when you bottom line them regarding
legal, man do they hem and haw about it. That attitude is not going to fly , at least not with me.

So what are you going to do about it?

Their commitment to a lawsuit in my opinion is not pure and
resolute, they equivocate, and lose heart and offer excuses and obstacle, that is not exactly how you rally the troops by intentionally scaring them
with prognostications of bankruptcy if we pursue a lawsuit. They are not sharing their analysis of the costs and complexities of the legal action with their members. In fact, we as members are only informed of the Executive Council actions after the fact.

The Executive Council has never presented (at least to my recent memory) a memorandum saying
"Here is our analysis of the a potential lawsuit, we spoke to our legal team here is the costs we might incur broken down as reasonably as possible
for you to review, tell us what you think about it, we welcome your input regarding how we might proceed"

Now you might and others say: Well the Executive Council can't or shouldn't have to do that, they're not accounts or lawyers and you elected them
and whatever dam excuse you want to think of, but when decision are made about me and my friend and my hobby and information and reasons
are not reasonable or readily available I get suspicious.

Do you?

Nope.


Oh, to answer your disingenuous question, no I am not planning to put together a "dream team" my team would not have time to do
much dreaming, but my plan is to hold the AMA accountable to their obligations to the membership, by calling them , following their actions
closely, offering suggestions, critiquing their actions and results, offering my service to them and working with them if their request is consistent with my beliefs, persuading other members to do likewise, as Bubba Blue said,"shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich... [pauses] That- that's about it.

Wow! Now that sounds like a sure fire plan! I look forward to the results. In fact, in the AMA wins, you can claim victory too!

If, the only way I can attain the lofty status of credibility with you is by bringing my own lawsuit, sorry Guy , gonna disappoint you, not going to
play that game,

No credibility required. It's your plan, you follow it.

I guess you will have one less person on your birthday list.
..
Old 02-01-2016, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffrey solomon
No one said it is easy, and because it is not easy and because I can't afford to launch an action on my own, this does not absolve the AMA from
completing the action they decided to undertake.

Or do you believe because I can't do it, the AMA need not do it, is that your position if so,

Your argument is juvenile,

Certainly negotiation is preferable to a costly lawsuit, but it looks like the negotiations will do nothing to address the crux of the issue, which is,

the FAA corrupted interpretation of the 2012 law. The AMA is going to try to offer its' membership all these other wonderful concessions

instead of what is needed like:

1) not having to register each plane
2) using AMA number instead of FAA number
3) AMA registration will provide automatic FAA registration
and so on and so on.
4) free labels (oh I can't wait for my FAA labels to come) better than Christmas,

These are meaningless concessions, if we accept these concessions as substantive and allow the FAA to interpret the law contrary to the intent of congress, we risk losing much. We have an abeyance order from the judges that provides redress in the court, if the FAA begins enforcement, the AMA has chosen to do nothing at this time, Ok fine, talk to the senators, negotiate but do not try to frighten anyone with the cost of
lawsuit. This is just a scare tactic and is not fooling anyone. Their figures are wrong.

I mean ,come on, they hired Brendan Schulman and Eric Tirshcwell to begin the lawsuit, 6 pages of legal documents, How much of the 6-10 million did that cost ?
By the way a 6-10 million estimated , is a pretty liberal spread isn't it? I am suspicious of that spread. The difference of 4mill over the low estimate of 6 mill is 40% error in the attorneys estimate. You wouldn't pay a contractor if his estimates were 40% out of whack.

Imagine you hired a carpenter and he threw a figure at you of between 60,000 to 100,000,, Then he gives you a line, like "Well we don;t know what's there, could run into all kinds of trouble,?" Wouldn't ask for clarification and explanation, I doubt that the executive council did this, I doubt that the cost is prohibitive and would bankrupt the AMA.

I think there are other motivations at play. The AMA could certainly provide more details regarding the suit then just

throwing out figures to the masses. Many of who are children of the Great Depression and have a real problem discussing money.

Listen to them at club meetings when a suggestion to spend club funds is raised, Their hearing which was questionable to begin with, becomes

worse, "HOW MUCH?" "WHAT, ARE YOU CRAZY" "SPEND THE CLUB FUNDS ON (WHATEVER)' they freak out at the thought of spending

money on essential items, sorry to say this Chris you sound like one of those guys maybe.
Maybe we should have the AMA charge a $10 assessment of all 180k members including those that pay nothing. That would provide another Million 800 thousand to work with ... Better yet require (Like Canada does) Mandatory Liability Insurance of the Million + Drone flyers. and be required to be a member of a CBO in order to fly anywhere in the USA and it's possessions. I can certainly afford 10 bucks to get the ball rolling. Especially if it means the difference from being able/allowed to continue Hobby flying and not flying anything but a KITE with a short string.
Old 02-01-2016, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffrey solomon
quote from Edge "You have Chris P Brain pegged Jeffrey"


Did I really profile him that accurately ?

Do you know him personally?

Please let me know, if I was right about Chris , I am going to

buy $100 of Lotto , if I win, I will be able to fund my own lawsuit against the FAA.
"buy $100 of Lotto"
There's a sucker born every minute P T Barnum (5 July 18107 April 1891)

"fund my own lawsuit against the FAA".
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...DaIQMwgeKAEwAQ

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Old 02-01-2016, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Maybe we should have the AMA charge a $10 assessment of all 180k members including those that pay nothing. That would provide another Million 800 thousand to work with ... Better yet require (Like Canada does) Mandatory Liability Insurance of the Million + Drone flyers. and be required to be a member of a CBO in order to fly anywhere in the USA and it's possessions. I can certainly afford 10 bucks to get the ball rolling. Especially if it means the difference from being able/allowed to continue Hobby flying and not flying anything but a KITE with a short string.

Could we expect a accounting of how those funds were to be spent< Or would it be the normal "none of your business"?

Mike
Old 02-01-2016, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
With enough palms greased it could be done just that quick. We (the AMA) can't play on that level.

Mike


Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Why wait for the AMA? Start your own fund raising campaign and go to Washington, money in hand.
I got an extra 10 bucks for the cause ... where do I send it or is a PAY=PAL account set up yet. 10 bucks is cheep to continue to fly R/C TOYS as always.

But I have a Question: Why hasn't Congress reinforced amendment #336? Did not they and the President sign it into law? Where's obama?
ANSWER ... Their afraid of the FAA and don't want to be dragged into a trivial argument over a bunch of R/C TOYS. Period.

Our best solution is to separate our selves from those that fly any thing (that is flown as an R/C TOY) for fun. Except when Flown on any registered flying area under the auspices of a CBO.
Old 02-01-2016, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Maybe we should have the AMA charge a $10 assessment of all 180k members including those that pay nothing. That would provide another Million 800 thousand to work with ... Better yet require (Like Canada does) Mandatory Liability Insurance of the Million + Drone flyers. and be required to be a member of a CBO in order to fly anywhere in the USA and it's possessions. I can certainly afford 10 bucks to get the ball rolling. Especially if it means the difference from being able/allowed to continue Hobby flying and not flying anything but a KITE with a short string.

Originally Posted by rcmiket
Could we expect a accounting of how those funds were to be spent< Or would it be the normal "none of your business"?

Mike
Mikey:
U worry way too much about things that u have absolutely NO control over. Call your congressman or senator and ask for an accounting of their office budget ... That's pretty much the same as U ask here. I really don't GAGGD what the AMA does with "THEIR" money so long as they FIX the Problem they Caused with trying to tell the FAA "HOW to do THEIR JOB". If they had not had congress initiate #336 the The FAA might have not even tried to do anything but Register those that fly R/C TOYS and restrict any flying of R/C TOYS closer than 5 miles to the 519 towered airports in the USA.
Old 02-01-2016, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Maybe we should have the AMA charge a $10 assessment of all 180k members including those that pay nothing. That would provide another Million 800 thousand to work with ... Better yet require (Like Canada does) Mandatory Liability Insurance of the Million + Drone flyers. and be required to be a member of a CBO in order to fly anywhere in the USA and it's possessions. I can certainly afford 10 bucks to get the ball rolling. Especially if it means the difference from being able/allowed to continue Hobby flying and not flying anything but a KITE with a short string.
.noitca lagel fo tiusrup ni ti sdeen AMA eht fi erom ro 001$ rof ni m'I .hcum yub t'nseod 01$ !01$
Old 02-01-2016, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Could we expect a accounting of how those funds were to be spent< Or would it be the normal "none of your business"?

Mike
If the accounting is not in accordance with federal reporting requirements for the AMA's tax exempt organization type you can file suit. Perhaps you and Jeffy can get 2 for 1 deal using the same law firm.
Old 02-01-2016, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
You're the one implying the time frame is unreasonable so why not tell us what's reasonable?
Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Talk is cheap Jeffy, lets see if you're a man of your word and post your picture of $100 of Lotto tickets purchased after the date of your post above.
Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
What do you mean years? I thought you just go to Washington and flip a switch? Even with travel from anywhere in the USA it shouldn't take more than a day or so.
Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Why wait for the AMA? Start your own fund raising campaign and go to Washington, money in hand.
Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
If the accounting is not in accordance with federal reporting requirements for the AMA's tax exempt organization type you can file suit. Perhaps you and Jeffy can get 2 for 1 deal using the same law firm.

Some things will never change.

Mike
Old 02-01-2016, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Originally Posted by HoundDog
Maybe we should have the AMA charge a $10 assessment of all 180k members including those that pay nothing. That would provide another Million 800 thousand to work with ... Better yet require (Like Canada does) Mandatory Liability Insurance of the Million + Drone flyers. and be required to be a member of a CBO in order to fly anywhere in the USA and it's possessions. I can certainly afford 10 bucks to get the ball rolling. Especially if it means the difference from being able/allowed to continue Hobby flying and not flying anything but a KITE with a short string.


Mikey:
U worry way too much about things that u have absolutely NO control over. Call your congressman or senator and ask for an accounting of their office budget ... That's pretty much the same as U ask here. I really don't GAGGD what the AMA does with "THEIR" money so long as they FIX the Problem they Caused with trying to tell the FAA "HOW to do THEIR JOB". If they had not had congress initiate #336 the The FAA might have not even tried to do anything but Register those that fly R/C TOYS and restrict any flying of R/C TOYS closer than 5 miles to the 519 towered airports in the USA.
Me worry? Not about this stuff ? No way it's a total waste of my time. I just thought I'd drop by today to see where this was going and I see nothings changed. .

Mike
Old 02-01-2016, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Some things will never change.

Mike
I disagree, your quoting skills have improved tremendously!
Old 02-01-2016, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Me worry? Not about this stuff ? No way it's a total waste of my time. I just thought I'd drop by today to see where this was going and I see nothings changed. .

Mike
See you tomorrow.

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