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AMA says, "Wait to register"

Old 02-02-2016, 11:43 AM
  #851  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Are you speculating again or can you show us specifically where in the non-profit tax rules it states how this revenue can be spent?
Informed supposition based on several years sitting on the board of a non-profit. We had access to a tax attorney for adjudication though.
Old 02-02-2016, 11:48 AM
  #852  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Informed supposition based on several years sitting on the board of a non-profit. We had access to a tax attorney for adjudication though.
I see, hearsay, but no actual substance, again. Should be easy for you to find evidence to support your claims though, right?
Old 02-02-2016, 11:49 AM
  #853  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Per the current AMA membership application: "For children and young adults under 19 as of July 1, 2016."

I don't see a minimum age for free youth memberships. Are you seriously that bitter about the AMA you're going to wait up to 20 years just to see if the AMA's youth membership program is effective? Is that all it is to you, a numbers game? Management by spreadsheet? How about the manager in Flint, MI who thought he/she was saving $1M by switching their water source? Looked good on the spreadsheet, right? Going to save a $1M annually, right? How about the conservative 75M+ estimate it's going to take to fix the problem? How about all the children (especially) and adults whose lives are now forever changed due to lead poisoning? Yeah, management by spreadsheet, those are some serious leadership skills.
(1) Just because some people in one city made a bad decision does not mean that it was based solely on a spreadsheet.
(2) Even if it was in that case, it does not mean that others would have made the same bad decision

The Flint decision, and many others like it, are the consequence of failure to consider unintended consequences. In this case, as I understand it, they failed to add appropriate treatment chemicals recommended by engineers. Water treatment methods differ based on the source water, and failing to consider end to end changes based on the change in chemistry of the source material is a fundamental failure of engineering and decision making - not necessarily something that was just a spreadsheet.

Speaking of unintended consequences and failure to consider them, kinda reminds some of us of the AMA's decision to make the MRs part of "us"?
Old 02-02-2016, 11:50 AM
  #854  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
I see, hearsay, but no actual substance, again. Should be easy for you to find evidence to support your claims though, right?
No worse than oversimplifying the Flint situation to a "spreadsheet decision."
Old 02-02-2016, 11:58 AM
  #855  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
No worse than oversimplifying the Flint situation to a "spreadsheet decision."
So if it wasn't a cost savings spreadsheet based decision, what was it?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/11/health...lint-michigan/
Old 02-02-2016, 12:01 PM
  #856  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
(1) Just because some people in one city made a bad decision does not mean that it was based solely on a spreadsheet.
(2) Even if it was in that case, it does not mean that others would have made the same bad decision

The Flint decision, and many others like it, are the consequence of failure to consider unintended consequences. In this case, as I understand it, they failed to add appropriate treatment chemicals recommended by engineers. Water treatment methods differ based on the source water, and failing to consider end to end changes based on the change in chemistry of the source material is a fundamental failure of engineering and decision making - not necessarily something that was just a spreadsheet.

Speaking of unintended consequences and failure to consider them, kinda reminds some of us of the AMA's decision to make the MRs part of "us"?
How do you know they didn't consider the unintended consequences? Do we make any decisions in life w/o consequences?
Old 02-02-2016, 03:13 PM
  #857  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
So if it wasn't a cost savings spreadsheet based decision, what was it?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/11/health...lint-michigan/

17 day old story hardly makes a conclusive case that it was a spreadsheet that led to this. Reporting just today is that FBI is now involved, thus raising the possibility this was criminal.
Old 02-02-2016, 04:07 PM
  #858  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
17 day old story hardly makes a conclusive case that it was a spreadsheet that led to this. Reporting just today is that FBI is now involved, thus raising the possibility this was criminal.
So until the "management by spreadsheet" cost cutting theory is proven or dis-proven you're going with genocide?
Old 02-02-2016, 04:12 PM
  #859  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
So until the "management by spreadsheet" cost cutting theory is proven or dis-proven you're going with genocide?
No. I merely said the FBI was involved, which means there is a possibility it was criminal. Doesn't mean it is, but it's possible.
Old 02-02-2016, 04:27 PM
  #860  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
+1! That's the only way our hobby is going to be able to sustain itself in the future. Great forward thinking by the AMA to offer free youth memberships.
Pork chop that is exactly right. The feature of the AMA depends on JR. members that will, If not after starting a family and other things hopefully return to the hobby and gladly pay their fair share to sustain the hobby well after it has celebrated it 100th birthday. How many people do u talk to that remember cutting their fingers starting a Mc Doy .19 etc. and flying their first kit built plane around a circle on strings. Today one AMA club I belong to, have signed up about 30 or 40 Kids (scouts) when we have our fly ins and later when we hold a scout outing to get them some buddy box tme.

It's all about the fishing. U present the bait and hope They take it Hook Line and sinker. It feels great when U set the Hook and they're hooked for life.
Old 02-02-2016, 04:41 PM
  #861  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Pork chop that is exactly right. The feature of the AMA depends on JR. members that will, If not after starting a family and other things hopefully return to the hobby and gladly pay their fair share to sustain the hobby well after it has celebrated it 100th birthday. How many people do u talk to that remember cutting their fingers starting a Mc Doy .19 etc. and flying their first kit built plane around a circle on strings. Today one AMA club I belong to, have signed up about 30 or 40 Kids (scouts) when we have our fly ins and later when we hold a scout outing to get them some buddy box tme.

It's all about the fishing. U present the bait and hope They take it Hook Line and sinker. It feels great when U set the Hook and they're hooked for life.
Thanks Doggie. Good job on your scouting events. You're right, modeling is a lifelong endeavor. Just because someone is youth member from the time they're born until the time the no longer qualify for a free youth membership doesn't mean they're never going to return to the hobby later in life. Things like college, careers, and families take priority, yet a rewarding childhood experience can last a lifetime.
Old 02-03-2016, 07:44 AM
  #862  
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Anyone see Mikey? Looks like he's late today.
Old 02-03-2016, 07:56 AM
  #863  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Anyone see Mikey? Looks like he's late today.
Sitting back watching the carnage. I'm pretty much done with this unless I add something factual. For example the post about "only seeing the 50,000 free youth memberships only on this forum" IMO this is pretty much been beaten to death and I see nothing changing anytime soon.
Thanks for asking though.
Mike
Old 02-03-2016, 08:24 AM
  #864  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Sitting back watching the carnage. I'm pretty much done with this unless I add something factual. For example the post about "only seeing the 50,000 free youth memberships only on this forum" IMO this is pretty much been beaten to death and I see nothing changing anytime soon.
Thanks for asking though.
Mike
Actually though, it made me think of something I hadn't thought of before. Seems so many of the bean counters here have fixated on the cost and lack of revenue from the youth memberships they've completely overlooked the seniors not paying their fair share. That 13-1/3% percent senior discount really adds up from what I see at the clubs I belong to and the events I attend. I'd really like to see some hard numbers on the number of AMA members receiving this very generous AMA member discount.
Old 02-03-2016, 08:39 AM
  #865  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Actually though, it made me think of something I hadn't thought of before. Seems so many of the bean counters here have fixated on the cost and lack of revenue from the youth memberships they've completely overlooked the seniors not paying their fair share. That 13-1/3% percent senior discount really adds up from what I see at the clubs I belong to and the events I attend. I'd really like to see some hard numbers on the number of AMA members receiving this very generous AMA member discount.

I've always wanted a breakdown on membership and who's paying what and was raked over the coals here for even suggesting it..You'll never see any hard numbers from the AMA on membership. That also has been beaten to death.

Mike
Old 02-03-2016, 08:41 AM
  #866  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Sitting back watching the carnage. I'm pretty much done with this unless I add something factual. For example the post about "only seeing the 50,000 free youth memberships only on this forum" IMO this is pretty much been beaten to death and I see nothing changing anytime soon.
Thanks for asking though.
Mike
Thanks for setting me straight. .
Old 02-03-2016, 08:43 AM
  #867  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
I've always wanted a breakdown on membership and who's paying what and was raked over the coals here for even suggesting it..You'll never see any hard numbers from the AMA on membership. That also has been beaten to death.

Mike
What a fantastic observation. It's OK to take advantage of some programs...but others shouldn't. Hmm. Every club I've ever visited or been part of is overwhelmingly 55 plus.
Old 02-03-2016, 08:49 AM
  #868  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
I've always wanted a breakdown on membership and who's paying what and was raked over the coals here for even suggesting it..You'll never see any hard numbers from the AMA on membership. That also has been beaten to death.

Mike
Originally Posted by porcia83
What a fantastic observation. It's OK to take advantage of some programs...but others shouldn't. Hmm. Every club I've ever visited or been part of is overwhelmingly 55 plus.
I don't see at all where Mike's request is favoring one group over another . Him wanting a breakdown of whose paying what sounds pretty all inclusive to me , since a breakdown of that sort would naturally include ALL members in the organization , right ? So tell me , just which programs are disparaged by his request ?
Old 02-03-2016, 08:53 AM
  #869  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
I've always wanted a breakdown on membership and who's paying what and was raked over the coals here for even suggesting it..You'll never see any hard numbers from the AMA on membership. That also has been beaten to death.

Mike
You're right, but now I can't help but wonder if that's because the 87%ers are behind it. You know, they don't want to be rooted out for not paying their fair share and the guys like myself and all the others paying their fair share are footing their cost. If their numbers get out it could be far worse than the cost of the those youths (need to say it just like my cousin Vinny) members.

Say, you're not an 87%er are you?
Old 02-03-2016, 08:56 AM
  #870  
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Oh , and as a general statement to no one in particular ;

I'd like to think that any expenditure regarding youth OR senior memberships would be offset by the donations that some make which are above and beyond their dues . Then there are some senior rate eligible members who purposefully DON"T take the senior discount as their small way of giving just a bit extra , well there is at least one that I know of for sure

A few times I've seen "whose paying their fair share" posts and I truly believe the AMA has set up their financial structure in such a way that all DO pay their fair share by the dues category that they are placed in .
Old 02-03-2016, 09:30 AM
  #871  
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My last renewal was for 2 years at the $58.00 old rate when they offered that deal. Next time I'm up for renewal ( if I do) I'll be at the Senior rate.

Mike

Last edited by rcmiket; 02-03-2016 at 09:56 AM.
Old 02-03-2016, 12:09 PM
  #872  
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It just doesn't mater. Ounce U sign the check press the button the money is no longer yours ... It ain't yours U bought an Insurance policy and a magazine and a ticket to their party not yours. They are running a business not a club. Now paying your club dues is another thing all together. One club i belong to the president has all kinds of computer surveys on every thing from grass mowing to how many raffles or flyins even if they are club and family only or open to other clubs to fly and even if the spectators will pay or not ... Mostly NOT. Usually a parking donation to the boy scouts that are parking and their Parents that do the cooking and take all the profits. Works great still takes a lot of club volunteers,

Trouble is he keeps asking the same thing in different ways till he get's the answers he wanted in the first place. Sneaky Bugger, Like most clubs the 4 officers run unopposed or it's arranged one of the in crowd is the only new candidate Unopposed naturally. But they do an excellent job so we keep the status quo.

Another club is a strict dictator ship. 75 members elect the board they elect a president vp secretary and treasure from the 10 ... It's all fixed up front even if there any other candidates run for the board, Like Stalin it doesn't matter who votes it's who counts the ballots. great system and it works,

Now the AMA is just like the last but the members believe they have a say. AH maybe if U want it the why the leader ship does....
Old 02-03-2016, 02:18 PM
  #873  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
I don't see at all where Mike's request is favoring one group over another . Him wanting a breakdown of whose paying what sounds pretty all inclusive to me , since a breakdown of that sort would naturally include ALL members in the organization , right ? So tell me , just which programs are disparaged by his request ?
Where did I say that any programs were disparaged by his request?
Old 02-03-2016, 02:28 PM
  #874  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
Oh , and as a general statement to no one in particular ;

I'd like to think that any expenditure regarding youth OR senior memberships would be offset by the donations that some make which are above and beyond their dues . Then there are some senior rate eligible members who purposefully DON"T take the senior discount as their small way of giving just a bit extra , well there is at least one that I know of for sure

A few times I've seen "whose paying their fair share" posts and I truly believe the AMA has set up their financial structure in such a way that all DO pay their fair share by the dues category that they are placed in .
Agree. Also, this isn't something new, they have been discounting memberships as well as giving free ones to youth for a long time now, it's always been worked into their budget. This has never been a budget buster of an issue, it's just convenient how to complain about it given the FAA issues. Also, you are right that donations are made all the time, many to the AMA Foundation which in part goes to many things like scholarships, flying site grants, and of course the field and Muncie.
Old 02-03-2016, 03:07 PM
  #875  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
Oh , and as a general statement to no one in particular ;

I'd like to think that any expenditure regarding youth OR senior memberships would be offset by the donations that some make which are above and beyond their dues . Then there are some senior rate eligible members who purposefully DON"T take the senior discount as their small way of giving just a bit extra , well there is at least one that I know of for sure

A few times I've seen "whose paying their fair share" posts and I truly believe the AMA has set up their financial structure in such a way that all DO pay their fair share by the dues category that they are placed in .
I guess you didn't get the memo. The first Wednesday of the month is always conspiracy theory Wednesday. Just trying to have some fun. I don't seriously care about the fair share/senior discount thing, but I thought the conspiracy theory was funny.

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