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It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

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It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

Old 08-15-2004, 11:07 PM
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afineman
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Default It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

I personally have a few experiences with AMA fields that I would like to share and see if it is me or do other have this experience too.

I have to start this story 25 years ago when my brother and I were starting out and looking for help in our new interest.

We both went to a local field to watch, pick brains, and gather info (this was the intent anyways). We were NOT warmly received, the person who was later described to us as the grumpy old fart, was down right rude.

This completely turned us off to organized flying so we went off on out own. We would, Build, Fly for 30 sec., and crash. This went on for 25 years (more so with my brother than I, not that I was more successful, he didn’t give up, and I did)

We are both in our mid 40’s and tried again, this time we started with RTF cheap Chinese planes. WELL we both flew (there is a larger story here, but it doesn’t fit in to this post well so I will omit it, I will just say we felt like teenagers again realizing a childhood fantasy)

We both quickly stepped up to better planes/controls (all those years of flying simulators on the computer did paid off). We both decided to stick with ARF, and to stay with electric (we both spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours building and crashing those gas planes over the last 25 years), because they worked and we had no interest in building anymore. Besides, there is no noise, no fuel, no stalling in flight, we found our heaven.

Now we come to Today (meaning with in the past month). Our experience has accelerated, all those years of crashing did teach us a lot, we are finding our appetite for this hobby and information about the hobby is veracious, it is not uncommon for us to get in 3 to4 hours of in air time per week.

SSOO we both decide (now that we are older, more experienced, and won’t be perceived as young punks) to approach a flying club in our local area.

The reception was the same (and we always thought we were carped on the first time because we were kids), we were not considered serious about the hobby because we were flying ARF and because we were flying electric.

We were both amazed we couldn’t understand why people who are supposed to love a hobby would A: give a new person a reception like that, and B: look down on emerging technology like electric flying.

Both my brother and I will never approach another flying club, we will fly in public fields and private farms ( Funny, these farms welcomed us, BECAUSE we do fly electric).

Just one other note, I recalled these stories to the owner on my LHS, and he explained to me that this is not uncommon, and the new technology is gaining very slow acceptance.

Now I’ll get to the question

WHY??????

Is flying electric and or flying ARF or ATF that bad.
Being in electronics for a living I can tell you this technology comes up with a major innovation about every 6 months (this is driven by the hybrid cars industry) and will only get better.

As for the AMA and their associated fields (because of our experience), if you don’t want us, we DON’T need you.

Just my opinion
Old 08-15-2004, 11:16 PM
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mectf
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Default RE: I is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

Great post.. My experiences are very similar.. sad isn't it..
Old 08-15-2004, 11:34 PM
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garygorf
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Default RE: I is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

My experiences with a club were about the same. In the 60s, they didn`t have any plan to train anyone. The only help I got was from the one guy who had the same radio as I did (the Space Control proportional). Everyone else was on reed type recievers and shunned us. They whined about the complexity and cost, etc. I felt I`d rather have 25 more transistors over a vibration-sensitive mechanical reed relay. Sure was funny when the digital proportional radios came out. Now I was being looked down upon for having an obsolete radio ! Zel Ritchie came to our field and proceeded to show what the Space Control could do. I finally went my own way and avoided clubs. I went through all the crashes and rebuilding until I finally got as good as I wanted to be. The whole experience was that of charactor building. I quit in 1970 when three brand new battery packs failed the same day. I decided I was not going to build more charactor with faulty equipment. I still follow R/C, but from afar.

Gary
Old 08-15-2004, 11:35 PM
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afineman
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Default RE: I is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

WELL

I would like to hear of your expirence.

untill I spoke with my LHS I always thought it was me.
Old 08-16-2004, 12:13 AM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

HA, you guys should try being a SPAD (www.spadtothebone.com) flier, we get shuned by clubs and hobby shops all the time, it's funny the FFF/Depron guys and the SPAD guys have a LOT in comon.
Old 08-16-2004, 01:27 AM
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foreverNight
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

Yep i had a similar experiance at the ONLY local flying field around here. I drove up and i noticed everyone there was looking at me like i was a trespasser. They had really nice gas planes. i had 4 electrics. When i tried to talk to someone he was very rude. I asked him how i could join and he said "what's your AMA number". I told him i wasnt a member yet and he said "well you cant be here then". I said well then before i leave I'm gonna go stand by my car and smoke a cigarette while i watch!
The guy didnt even make eye contact with me.
Old 08-16-2004, 02:43 AM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

I think there may be a bit of machoism for some that fly gas planes. You know, the faster, the bigger, the better. But like pulling into a Harley Davidson dealership on a Moped you draw attention. It's all fun, but in some people's minds they've drawn a line at what a real man flys forgetting that it's a hobby, not the Olympics, not their wanker, and it's supposed to be about fun.

Electric is here to stay. I got into the hobby last year thinking I'd start with electric to learn and move on to glo, but I'm finding that electric powered is not just for toys and that as technology improves, it just gets more appealing.
Old 08-16-2004, 11:05 AM
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BuzzBomber
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

Perhaps I'm just lucky. Perhaps it depends as much on the newcomer as much as the club. Perhaps, perhaps. The guys at my club field have been great. I tried to start out about 15 years ago with a Telemaster, and lost interest before learning to fly. Fast forward to about 3 years ago, I picked up a GWS cub and all the trimmings to fly it. I taught myself, and several models later, I re-joined the club. I fly both glow and electric there, and have found that people just knock things they don't understand--it's human nature. Nobody expects my electrics to do much, and I have heard a few snide comments, so when I make a screaming full-throttle pass with my brushless-powered Spitfire or vertical rolls with my Wasp, jaws drop. When I land, the questions begin. My advice: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em--then convert 'em! The guy who runs our LHS has told me that he is selling far more electric planes now that I fly them at the field and tell people where I got them.
Old 08-16-2004, 11:50 AM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

This is a common situation that you will experience throughout the USA but not in Europe. Like everything else noise pollution and cost have driven the Europeans to fly electric powered models. In the USA this is not a problem for gas powered models until this changes the muscle machines will prevail throughout North America.
Most gas modelers view electrics as underpowered toys. This attitude will change when more and more large scale models make there appearence felt at major RC events. Ten years from now the electrics will reach parity with the gas burners.
Old 08-16-2004, 12:34 PM
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P-51B
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

ORIGINAL: flycatch

This is a common situation that you will experience throughout the USA but not in Europe. Like everything else noise pollution and cost have driven the Europeans to fly electric powered models. In the USA this is not a problem for gas powered models until this changes the muscle machines will prevail throughout North America.
Most gas modelers view electrics as underpowered toys. This attitude will change when more and more large scale models make there appearence felt at major RC events. Ten years from now the electrics will reach parity with the gas burners.

It has nothing to do with flying electrics vs IC.

Sounds like you just went to some clubs with attitude problems. I have heard these exist, fortunately I have never experienced one. I currently belong to two clubs. Both have members that fly just about everything, arfs & scratch built, teeny electrics up to giant scale gassers...I think there are even a few turbines that I haven't seen yet.

Try going to a few other clubs, be positive, wear a smile, and good luck! The guys may not be able to help with the electric components if they fly IC, but they should be able to help teach you to fly regardless of watt () power system you have as long as you can start it.


ps
( Funny, these farms...)
funny farms...watch out for those!
Old 08-16-2004, 12:45 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

moveing this to the clubhouse
Old 08-16-2004, 01:23 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

Matt, I agree you were lucky. I like to think the folks who visit the clubs I belong to are lucky, because we try to welcome them.

Back to the topic, though...

Here's my theory, for the question asked in Post #1 of this thread. I theorize that, before ARF's became popular, the only people who flew were those who successfully completed the build/fly 30 seconds/crash cycle described in Post #1. Those people are not instructors by nature, they are people who enjoy sitting for hours at a building table, knowing full well that the fruits of their labor may soon lay in a smoking heap. As such, those flyers deem their flying skills 'earned the hard way', and jealously guard the secrets.

Now, not all of them share that 'jealously guarding' trait, but those who have it also seem annoyed by a willing instructor. I think that annoyance has been, through the years, transferred to each latest plane-saving device. I know old-timers who denounce ARF's, the buddy cord, super glue, electrics, and the latest dependable engines which require little to no tinkering. Some of them have even embraced one or two of these devices, but still criticize the buddy cord as inferior to 'passing the transmitter.'

Give it a few generations. The landscape will change.

Good luck,
Dave Olson
Old 08-16-2004, 01:25 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

I have seen some of this too. It varies depending on the new person. If they are outgoing, and walk up and talk, they usually get more answers. If the get out of the car and stand back and watch, noone ever walks up to them. Kind of a shame, but that happens a lot. Sometimes it is guys so into what they are doing, they don't see the new guys, sometimes its just rude guys who only care about themselves.

Our club tries to keep things friendly for newbies, but it gets busy at times and they don't always get the reception they should.
Old 08-16-2004, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

Remember the Dr. Suess tale about the star bellies and the non-star bellies. That is how I feel some clubs operate. If you don't have a star, ie 33% all composite gasser, your nobody that they want to associate with. I know of a few communities that have two or three clubs because one wants to be all old farts that don't fly but drink copious amounts of coffee and show off their $15000.00 planes, another wants to be all 3D and fly wearing funny hats, and another wants to be all twenty-somethings, who fly 150hp 33% turbine powered hand gliders, and will allow anyone who is crazy enough to fly with them in the club. It must be your luck of the draw that you came upon a club whom you will not fit their profile. Don't blame them, nor give up hope, there are many in your shoes and you may either find a club that will accept you for who you are, or you will start your own club. That is how clubs start, a few guys are out flying generate interest, and before you know it, your training someone, who in turn trains another, then a guy comes up who just moved into the community and flys, so he starts flying with you, and so on and so on until you have your own club.

Speaking from experience here.

Scott
Old 08-16-2004, 01:33 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

We have everything from free flight, to jets in our club. If your ever around Red Deer, Alberta, come on in.
Old 08-16-2004, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

I have seen posts like this before, but I have considered myself pretty lucky. On my first visit to the club I am in I went with one of the members who lives in my neighborhood. I think this probably opened up some of the communications quicker, but even after being a member for a while there were those that kept a distance. That has changed quite a bit over the last couple of years and some of it is just how people are. Some are outgoing, friendly and ready to help others, while others are grumpy and standoffish. I also took a couple of planes with me to Denver this Spring so I could fly locally when out there. I went to two fields and, at least for me, the persons that I walked up to and started talking to were very friendly. Like I said, maybe luck and circumstance have more to do with it than anything else. If you were closer, you could visit our club, but N.H. and OK are quite a ways apart.
Old 08-16-2004, 03:07 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

I was wondering who all these new posters to the Clubhouse were untill I saw that the thread was moved.

It is unfortunate that some clubs and some club members are not as diplomatic as they could be but I don't completely blame the club members and think some of the posters to this thread have to take some responsibility for the exchange that they had when visiting a field. It takes two to tango and we are only getting one side of these stories and don't actually know what transpired to turn these guys off to clubs.

Let's try and read between the lines of Afinemans post (an interesting choice for a name). Brothers had a bad experience and thought it was because they were kids. Another bad experiance as adults and write off clubs because of maybe meeting two bad apples over a 25 year period. Maybe part of the problem could be the attitude or personalities of the brothers which may not have changed over the years when approaching the club member and expecting an "club attitude" in the first place.

Now others have had similar experiances so I'm sure there are some clubs that are just cliqueish and hard to approach but if we are going to generalize about people in the hobby I would have to say that they are more often friendly towards new people who have an interest to fly and who don't come across with an attitude.

To write off all clubs because of one or two bad experiances is doing youself no favor and if you are the type of person to cut off your nose to spite your face than I would assume that maybe your attitude was part of the initial problem.
Old 08-16-2004, 03:58 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

You could be right BB. After all why throw the AMA into the mix with thier problems. I know this does go on at some clubs. It's happend to me and I never meet a stranger. It just makes me try that much harder to keep our site friendly. We are a small club in a small town. Everyone is welcome. Bring your stuff when you travel down I-40 in OK. You can find me using the club locator on this site. If your insured you can use our site.


David
Old 08-16-2004, 04:23 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

I been there... and I am a friendly, easy going guy If I wasnt allready into the hobby, the current club I belong to (the only one within 2 hours drive) would have turned me off as well. The first time I showed up (as a paid member no less) no one said hello, introduced themselves to me or were at all interested in my planes, my background, etc. I had to make the effort to get "accepted" into the group and it took a few years, believe me.

Today, we have some really nice people in the club. I try my hardest to be very open to prospective new members, and even people that just stop by to watch I will stop and go up to them and talk.

Its funny, we all want to get more people into the hobby, yet there is still a prevelance of modelers in clubs that behave in the manner you speak of... that quickly turns off newcomers. I have experienced it more than once myself. Luckily there are more modelers that WANT you to join their club and these are the guys who you have to meet.

If someone turns you off, try speaking to some other member. Try approaching the guys who fly the same types of planes as you do, or maybe are around the same age as you are first.

AJC
Old 08-16-2004, 04:24 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

Perhaps I'm just lucky. I've never been to a club site that was unfriendly. I've been to some that would talk only if you approached them first but they weren't unfriendly. I've held every position in our club except Pres and have been doing the newsletter for years. If any one shows up at our field we all start recruiting by answering the usual questions about how much it costs and how hard is it to fly. If the buddy box is handy a no experience prospect will get some stick time. We have three club trainers and we invite prospective members to start with one of them until he makes up his mind about the hobby. We are an AMA club and explain that right from the beginning. AMA has an introductory program that we use. Sorry that some people do not receive a proper reception but it won't happen here. Speaking of "Old
Farts" I'm 80 and have been in this hobby for many years. Can't remember the number of people I've brought into modeling.
Old 08-16-2004, 04:26 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

"Old fart" doesn't necessarily relate to age... I have met a few "old farts" younger than me, and I am just 33 yrs old

AJC
Old 08-16-2004, 04:32 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

So, the moral of the story is, there are absolutley NO bad clubs, only bad newbies who happen to fly electrics!!!


I got it!!
Old 08-16-2004, 04:35 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

My Father-in-Law and I had the exact opposite reaction. The club welcomed us with open arms. We were invited to attend a club meeting, where we found out we liked the guys. This was in September so it was too late to train. Next spring we became AMA and club members. Three different guys trained me. Whoever was available, everyone helped. In fact 4 years later I'm now the club secretary. We have 21 members in our club. I believe it is like any other human endeavor some bad apples but for the most part good.

John
Old 08-16-2004, 06:23 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

I am fortunate to have three flying fields accessible. two club fields and one public. I use all three. I actually find the club fields more friendly. The public field is a little bit cliqueish. It kind of turned me off at first, but I realize now that the regulars get a little worn out helping people they only see once. Usually kids with a new RTF they have no clue what to do with. One crash and they're off to something else. Now that I've been around a while, I find them to be actually good people. The club, on the other hand, was friendly from the start. Maybe the commitment of AMA and club dues makes them realize you're there to stay! On balance I'd say I've met very few unpleasant people in this hobby. Most people will bend over backwards to help, I try to do the same!
Old 08-16-2004, 06:28 PM
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Default RE: It is not my intent to start a feud, BUT

Roger Roger.

Seriously, I must also be one of the lucky ones. I've been to a LOT of club fields in New England and always been welcomed. Of course, many times it's been necessary for me to make the first move, to approach a couple of guys and start talking RC, but they've always responded nicely.

I'm sure there are still clubs out there where the members frown in disgust at small electrics, but I also agree that they can be educated, and often will do complete 180's very quickly.

My primary club had only one electric flyer (besides me) 5 years ago, then I gave a talk at a club meeting about electrics in general, and the advances that had been made in the past few years. Everyone was very receptive and asked a lot of questions. A few guys now have smaller electrics that they play around with.

I doubt that anyone at the club will invest in 40 size (or larger) electrics with brushless set ups any time soon, but then neither will I. My primary mode of power is still IC.

Brent,
Where are you in NH?
Dennis-

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