The PIPE

Dear Fellow RCU'ers:

The PIPE here again...and in a now-closed forum thread, at http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_72..._1/key_/tm.htm , there was the concern raised about WHAT sort of RC aircraft SHOULD bear what is most likely the most "hated-through-MIS-use" full scale aircraft marking ever created...the 1933-1945 used "Hakenkreuz", or swastika, that adorned the vertical tails of the Nazi era Luftwaffe aircraft, during the period of fascism that brought SO much pain and harm to planet Earth, that ended in Germany sixty years ago this May.

Very recently, my German Email buddy, the Webmaster of the antique aviation website at http://www.biplanes.de/ , informed me about a court case in Germany that DID involve an RC Scale gas turbine powered model of an Me 262, flown by one German RCer named Klaus Buttler...which DID have a fully authentic Hakenkreuz painted on its vertical tail...JUST where the full sized aircraft had always had it painted in WW II...and this RC Scale model was being flown IN Germany!

It seems someone DID, sadly, "report" Mr. Buttler to the German legal authorities over his placing a fully authentic and historically correct swastika on the vertical tail of his RC Scale Me 262...and he was fined some 500 Euros (roughly US $650.00) for the alleged "offense" of having a "fascist symbol" on his RC Scale model...

...but Mr. Buttler APPEALED the "questionable-to-him" ruling against him, and the ruling was OVERTURNED by an appeals court justice in Germany, on the grounds "that the use of a Nazi symbol was NOT proof of the model owner's political views"...thusly allowing Mr. Buttler's Me 262 RC Scale model to RETAIN its authentic vertical tail insignia.

Now, I'm NOT making this up...the German language website that mentioned this piece of news is at http://www.sn-medien.de/modellpilot/news/news.htm ...graciously provided by my buddy Jens...and although I'm NOT certain if the RCU admins MIGHT not allow this forum posting to "go through", this story I've just told DOES relate to the closed thread here at RCU that the link exists for in the first paragraph...and it DID involve an RC Scale aircraft at the core of the matter...so I'm going to try posting it here, and see if it manages to "pass the test"...!

Yours Sincerely

The PIPE... !

PLANE JIM

My Feedback: (109)

Hello Pipe, long time no hear, It brings back the thought of the "Confederate Air Force" now renamed the "Commerative Air Force"-we have to make sure that we do not offend anyone-I was told so that we would not violate anyone'sl rights-I think the pendelum has swung too far for "political correctness"-there is nothing that I have found in the documents of this "Great Country" that guarntees your comfort-just my thought

last12know

As with anything the more common something is the less passion people feel toward it and the smaller the impact it has on people. (whatever it may be, good things or bad) eg. Curse words in movies... Its just accepted that we will hear them. Anyone remember the outcry about Gone With the Wind and one curse word at the end of the movie.

Just my thoughts about something that will eventually not be so painful.

smokingcrater

Germany (and other parts of europe also) have lots of ill-will towards that entire era and everything that represents it. Very understandable regarding the circumstances. placing our american values of freedom of speech on it isn't exactly fair, we aren't living there, we are living here. that incident happened in germany. would it happen here?, most likely not, as there is no law forbidding that anyway.

TomCrump

Although there may not be laws about it here, it does happen. Years ago, I was confronted about the swastika on my Me 109. It seems that this person wanted to rewrite history.

PLANE JIM

My Feedback: (109)

It is called "HISTORY"-not racism, discrimination or affirmative action-Maybe we should have put portrait of Ted Kennedy on the tail of our airplanes

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Hey Pipe,
An interesting topic and the case of the German gentleman is very interesting to me. I think it is a differant situation over there but I must agree with the outcome of the case.

I think a true scale model should have authentic markings even if they might offend someone who doesn't have an appreciation for scale models. What I find interesting though is non-scale models that bear those same markings. Now I hope this isn't to far off topic and I know the historic differance but the use of the Iron Cross on the Ugly Stik is a bit ponderous to me. For many it is very close to the Swastika although I know it predates the use of the later by many years. I also understand that some people of German descent like it as a way to show their heritage however, there are many who would argue that it sends a not so subtle message of someone's personal beliefs.

So I post this for the information of those who may be unaware of the ramifications of decorating thier new model with the supplied stickers so that they may be a little more informed on how it may be veiwed by others.

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

I remember getting my hand slapped in 6th grade by my homeroom teacher after sketching a Fokker triplane on the blackboard complete with Maltese crosses! Sheesh, maybe I was traumatized by that if I still remember it? Nowdays I could sue her! She was German btw...

She called them "Devil's crosses"... I tried to tell her they were "Maltese" but she didn't want to hear it...

My 6th grade art teacher called them "Surfer's" crosses?! Somebody else called 'em "Biker's" crosses?

Whatever dudes I kinda think the native American's came up with it first, didn't they?! A symbol of the quartering of the world into active and passive principles?

Some people are just more sensitive than others I guess...I'm part German myself, and don't see anything wrong with putting authentic markings on a scale aircraft, but the big "Iron"/"Maltese" etc. crosses on the stick type airplanes always made me go "Huh"?

Bruno Stachel

My Feedback: (4)

Proptop, I wonder if she whacked you just for drawing on her black board, no matter the pictures' subject.

I had an Austrian for a German teacher in high school. I remember someone in class drew a swastika on his book. See didn't hit him, but she went into a long ranting speech over it. She even ridiculed him for drawing it backward. The only thing worse you could do, was chew gum in her class.

I agree with BB. If it's true to scale, put them on. But please don't put an X in it's place. If you don't want a swastika on your model, then leave it blank. I've seen X's and 4 diamonds as substitutes - doesn't look right.

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Naw Bruno, it was because of the subject! She went off about the Nazi's, etc. I told her there were no nazis in WW I, but that didn't seem to matter. I knew it was because she was German and felt uneasy about it. I talked to her about it years later, because some time after that, her son and I became friends...

Anyway, I used to draw all sorts of things on the blackboards and never got bugged about it before or after...

One of our club members was a waist gunner in a B-17 and he has models of a Bf 109 and a FW 190 with Hakenkreuzes on 'em...If anybody'd be bothered by 'em ya think he'd be, cuz he got shot at by those "other guys", but...

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Frankly, M'dear... I don't GIVE a (curse word).

Just kidd'n! I bought Memphisbelle's Ziroli Stuka, terriffic detail, including Swastikas. It's staying that way.

However, when my Bravada came with the dratted "***ring Chevy/Oldsmobile" emblem on the back, I was quick to pry it off! I'm not advertising for THEM!

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

I feel sorry for people who think they have to rewrite history to make themselves feel better about it. We have been having a discussion here at the office a lot like this one.

The word Squaw was being discussed. Indians used it for years meaning basically the same as wife or their woman. Later years, people turned it around in their head to mean something bad and now the world has to cater to the few twisted idiots that want the word squaw removed from the history books and everything else.

You see it agian with the Enola Gay. People were torked because we put it in the smithsonian because of what it was used for. Shame we should put a piece of important history in a museum. We wouldn't want to have anyone know that we really did drop a bomb to put an end to the war.

Again after 9/11, people were wearing their US flag lapell pins. The gov't agencies and police and fire dept's all over were told that they couldn't wear those pins any more because it may be offensive to other nationalities. Bunk!

Its history, it happened. People have to learn to deal with it. It may have been wrong, but it happened. The original plane he modeled had the cross, the model plane would look kinda dumb if it was modeled after it but omitted the cross. Not quite to scale then!

People need to learn to accept history and learn from it, instead of trying to rewrite it to make it fall into something they can accept more easily.

Sorry for the rant. Just tired of the masses having to change to please the few!

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Weird, when I look at Flyboy's post, Enola Gay appears as Enola ****, but when I hit the quote button it appears properly?

Edited, OK, so when you hit the quote button you can read it, but when you post it **** appear.

Why would Enola G a y get editted out with stars automatically? I don't understand.

scottrc

I got an interesting book from the library today. It is full of color photos and diary notes from WW2. The preface described why so many of these color pictures, letters, and other momentos are now just surfacing is that people who went throught the war, upon the end of that war, wanted to forget it ever happened. I get the same response from vets whom I have interviewed for while doing a model. Many of them never have brought out their photos or told their stories until their waning years in life because the memories were just to painful to deal with.

We may have to associate with a lot of "politically correct" types in our hobby, but we might need to remember that it was the WW2 generation that started that order. That is why so many European countries ban symbols that are related to the Axis. There are still too many people that those symbols may affect emmotionally.

Scott

MarkNovack

My Feedback: (3)

Hello all,

Just a couple of thoughts about this after living in Germany for 12 years.

While living in Heidelberg, a friend was flipping through my MAN magazine and he commented on the photos of the German fighters with the Swastika, and that that would be illegal in Germany. The Germans do that out of respect for the victims, all victims, of the Nazi regime and to demonstrate, to the world as a whole, zero tolerance for Nazi fascism (that is a good thing I think). It remains a fresh nightmare to the surviving generations. Germany has become more liberal since the falling of the Berlin Wall, perhaps resulting in the aquital of said modeler (in Germany, as in the USA, ignorance is no defense from the law). However, they do remain sensitive and combative to anything that hints of glorifying those days, again, out of respect. They do teach history correctly in schools and they do apply the proper moral perspective that all free peoples can appreciate, so not wanting to have Swastika laden models flying around the countryside is not motivated by the desire to change history. One last thing...simply saying that that is historical does not make it right in their country. No American I know in our generations would tolerate symbols of Al Queda flying around if it was a historical representation or not. That is the only comparison, however hypothetical, that I could think of...that is the depth of the pain.

Respectfully,
Mark

But starring out Enola Gay, now that's fresh!!!

Edited to add: the whole Enole star star start issue makes this whole thread moot!!!...LOL

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

This is actually an interesting point that maybe should be explored. They often use common Muslim symbols such as the crescent, does that mean that those should not be allowed?


That's what I thought too!

Note: edited to fix the quoting.

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Scott makes a good point, which reminds me of the upstate New York brothers who flew P47's in Europe during WWII. Asked if they ever wanted to fly civilian aircraft, they said, more or less in unison, "When I got back to the states, last thing in the WORLD I ever wanted to do was fly a da mn airplane."

There was another story on History channel about a Jug pilot, didn't tell his stories until 1994 when grandkids badgered him. It became a documentary, about 4 or 6 hours worth. He remembered it all, and remembered doing certain things that he didn't feel good about, but did them anyway, because he knew they needed done. I think the specific task I'm thinking he described was ground attack. He'd see a soldier jumping for cover, and decide whether to toe the rudder and rake his machine gun fire over the soldier. Said he usually did it, because he knew the guy would be out shooting at our guys if he didn't. He did it, but he didn't feel good about it, and he never shared the stories until '94.

For that matter, there are a lot of guys my age who don't like to talk about what they did in 'Nam. I was just an Xray tech, at a MedEvac hospital in Texas. I don't tell about the evacuees I worked on. But I'm glad they were home, and I'm glad when their stories are told, and I wouldn't want to cover anything up or change the history books, or delete any emblems or insignia.

Just my two bits worth,
Dave Olson

RCJake-rcu

My Feedback: (7)

I knew a older guy in Illinois that was a tank commander in Europe. (I believe that he as involved in D-Day). Anyway, he flew RC planes and did pretty well. But, if you brought out a plane with German markings, either WWI or WWII, he would not like it and would tell you so. You see, during WWII, his tank was destroyed, everyone inside killed but him and he lost an eye and a leg. I wonder if I would feel the same way if what had hjappend to him had happened to me.

Off subject, but interesteing.

I met another guy in Illinois at a mall show that flew Bearcats in the Pacific during WWII. When I asked him if he still flew, he replied, "Nope! I used up all of my luck then." When I asked what he meant, he told me how he crash landed or bailed out on enemy held islands three different times and had to be rescued. So, he felt like he had used up all of his luck and had not been on an airplane since 1945. When I asked if he flies on commercial planes, he said no.

last12know

Its so you can't use that word to describe someone when posting to this forum. It is automatic and can only be gotten around by tricking the software like you did.

depfife

My Feedback: (14)

Go spend some time in the car forums and you will understand.[&o] It seems to be one of the favorite words some of our youth use to put down something. Adding it to the filter was a way to calm down some of the flame wars in those forums. Unfortunately the filter cannot discern if it is used appropriately or otherwise.


As for the topic of this thread, I don't understand the desire to try and connect our wonderful hobby to a political/social controversy. Nothing we say here will have much impact on those that oppose using these emblems. Use your own judgment on whether or not they are appropriate and decorate your plane accordingly. (At least for those of us not in Germany.)

Does anyone think the world's opinion, or for that matter the opinion of RCU's members have changed much since this topic was last discussed? For those that prefer discussing the use of these emblems over discussing RC aircraft, I would think there are more appropriate locations for these discussions.

Eric

Pilotsmoe

well, you're protected by the first amendment. They can't do anything to you. Germany, on the other hand, dosen't have free speech like this country

Pilotsmoe

But they ARE trying to change history. I heard of a case where they were trying to remove the swastika off of a ME109 in a museum

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

if the iron cross was so close to the swastika then it wouldn't have continued to be used well after WWII. always has been and probably always will be related to the german military and not to the nazi party itself like the swastika.



dave

MarkNovack

My Feedback: (3)

You are not entirely correct.

Here is the first part of the German consitution that was modeled closely after ours. In reality, we dictated most of it when we still had a million troops stationed there. It goes on to more than 140 articles but the most basic and philisophical principles are up front. If you read the whole thing (on the web) you would start to think that they just copied our basic law into their consitution. The difference is really only that ours is a capitalist democracy and their's is socialist democracy which becomes apparent after living here for a while.


PREAMBLE (amended by Unification Treaty, 31 August 1990 and federal statute of 23 September 1990, Federal Law Gazette II p. 885).
Conscious of their responsibility before God and Men, Animated by the resolve to serve world peace as an equal partner in a united Europe, the German people have adopted, by virtue of their constituent power, this Basic Law.

The Germans in the Länder of Baden-Württemberg, Bavaria, Berlin, Brandenburg, Bremen, Hamburg, Hesse, Lower Saxony, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, North-Rhine-Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Schleswig-Holstein, and Thuringia have achieved the unity and freedom of Germany in free self-determination. This Basic Law is thus valid for the entire German People.


1. BASIC RIGHTS

Article 1 (Protection of human dignity).
(1) The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority.
(2) The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world.
(3) The following basic rights bind the legislature, the executive and the judiciary as directly enforceable law.

Article 2 (Rights of liberty).
(1) Everyone has the right to the free development of his personality insofar as he does not violate the rights of others or offend against the constitutional order or the moral code.
(2) Everyone has the right to life and to inviolability of his person. The freedom of the individual is inviolable. These rights may only be encroached upon pursuant to a law.

Article 3 (Equality before the law).
(1) All persons are equal before the law.
(2) Men and women have equal rights.
(3) No one may be prejudiced or favored because of his sex, his parentage, his race, his language, his homeland and origin, his faith or his religious or political opinions.

Article 4 (Freedom of faith, of conscience and of creed).
(1) Freedom of faith and of conscience, and freedom of creed religious or ideological, are inviolable.
(2) The undisturbed practice of religion is guaranteed.
(3) No one may be compelled against his conscience to render war service as an armed combatant. Details will be regulated by a Federal law.

Article 5 (Freedom of expression).
(1) Everyone has the right freely to express and to disseminate his opinion by speech, writing and pictures and freely to inform himself from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by radio and motion pictures are guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.
(2) These rights are limited by the provisions of the general laws, the provisions of law for the protection of youth and by the right to inviolability of personal honor.
(3) Art and science, research and teaching are free. Freedom of teaching does not absolve from loyalty to the constitution.

Article 6 (Rights of the Family).
(1) Marriage and family enjoy the special protection of the state.
(2) Care and upbringing of children are the natural right of the parents and a duty primarily incumbent on them. The state watches over the performance of this duty.
(3) Separation of children from the family against the will of the persons entitled to bring them up may take place only pursuant to a law, if those so entitled fail in their duty or if the children are otherwise threatened with neglect.
(4) Every mother is entitled to the protection and care of the community.
(5) Illegitimate children shall be provided by legislation with the same opportunities for their physical and spiritual development and their position in society as are enjoyed by legitimate children.


In thinking about my stupid Al Queda comparison, I would like better to remind you of of US rulings in regions regarding the display of both the Confederate banner and Ten Commandments. I'm sure NOT going to share my opinions on that here (I would open a forum of my own if I thought it could remain peaceful...LOL...yeah, right!!!)

Lasty, I flew a Stinger .40 covered as the Stars and Stripes (Betsy Ross would have been proud) all over Germany, and they LOVED it. So as long as they support the flying of the colors of Freedom, they can ban all the fascist merde they please in my book. Heck, in 12 years living in Germany the only oppression I ever felt was the poor weather and squalling rain that fell uncanilly only on the weekends. When I came to belgium, I wound up giving the Stinger away. The guy recovered the bottom of the wing, which was all white, with the Belgian colors. So he flew both flags and people loved it...the older generation really loved it.

Mark

jettstarblue

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