JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

I love this hobby/sport. I like helping people too. I Started flying five years ago and in that time I migrated from my first trainer to the giant IMAC and 2M pattern planes I fly now. I fly often and can be found at the field on just about any day. I'm not a world class pilot, just an average guy with some ability, but that does put me in the top 1% of our local club of 150 pilots. Because of that, I am often asked to test fly planes for pilots. Many times, the planes are virgins.

Being the helpful type, I typically agree to fly the plane for the pilot. I always do some preflight safety checks like tug tests on surfaces, servo movement, CG, range, etc., but I don't check everything. It really isn't feasible or possible to check how much glue was used on wing ribs, is thread lock on every screw, did they pin the firewall as per the plans, etc. Some thing I just have to take on faith. I ask the pilot, "did you thread lock all screws." If they say they did, I'm not going to back out every screw to double check them.

Here's the issue. So far, I haven't crashed anyone's pride and joy, but I have had some very close calls, all due to poor building or failed equipment. In fact, nearly every model I have test flown I have made the pilot fix something first before I would fly it. I have had pilots get very angry with me when I refuse to fly planes because I don't like something about their model (like a twitchy servo, or poorly running motor, lousy range check, etc.)

Recently, a buddy of mine helped someone test fly a 35%. The model had screws backing out on the ground during range checks. That was fixed with thread lock before the flight. All seemed well after a bunch of safety checks which took about 1 hour, so the model was test flown. About 3 minutes into the flight, a wing failed, destroying the entire $4K model which took 8 month to build. Luckily for the test pilot, the owner was at the controls at the time. Later, the cause was determined to to be a building error that might have been found on the ground if you were lucky enough to be checking for that type of failure.

I'm at the point were I am weary of flying anyone's model. If I crash when flying their model and cause personal/property damage, I'm sure I'll be listed on the lawsuit even if the problem was directly related to the builder/owner of the model.

For that reason, along with the history of nearly every plane I have test flown has problems, I have decided I will no longer test fly planes. (I may make exceptions for VERY close friends who I am familiar with their building and safety record.) I really don't like making this decision because I do want to help those that need it, but the flip side is I don't need the arguments from plane owners and I don't want to be the pilot in control of a dangerous model. I also don't want to spend four hours at the field fixing issues with planes that should have been fixed before they ever left the shop. I'd like to help, but I don't think it is worth the risk and I'm not sure how to ensure the model is safe when I can't easily check certain aspects of the planes integrity.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this subject that may help me decide how to handle this issue.

Thanks.

Dave Bowles

My Feedback: (7)

I have done many of the same things you mention and have had some close calls but so far I have not damaged anything. It can be very scary if you are not familiar with them, but I make it very clear that if I am asked to do it and it breaks in half they own both peaces. If it did do some damage I am sure I would be mentioned as well, but I don't tend to dwell on it. If your not comfortable with it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying NO, I don't want that responsibility. WHen I do test for someone it is usually just s few laps to trim it out and land , Only if I am familiar with the builder would I attempt any stunts or maneuvers.

Flyfalcons

I enjoy test flying planes for other guys because I get lots of exposure to different designs and helping them out breaks up the monotony of a typical day at the field. I feel that I'm at the point where if the plane is built straight and balances fine with a control and range check and a reliable engine, then very little can go wrong that I would have any control over. If I go out to the field and someone wants me to test their plane, I haven't been spending weeks or months getting anxious or worked up about flying it, and my nerves are usually very calm. However, before I hit the throttle, I look to them and make sure that they understand that whatever happens, happens. If it's an aerobatic plane then I'll put it through its paces to give my input on setup or handling. I try to keep first flights to 5 minutes or less, and afterwards insist that the owner take it apart and look for anything that may be coming loose.

redrocker

This is a good topic.
I used to test fly lots of new airplanes for our club members, or any older planes that were out of trim. I had a good reputation for being able to handle the unexpected and was able to get a plane up in the air and trim it out then hand it over to the owner. Kind of did my ego some good to handle some of the planes that I did.

Then some years ago a guy came to me with fancy fiberglass fuselage pattern plane with trike gear that he had purchased for several hundred bucks from consignment at a LHS. Plane had something like a Supertiger 90 on it. Checked it over in great detail. It balanced ok, control throws seemed adequate, radio range checked, engine ran strong, etc. So I taxied it to the end of the runway, turned it around and proceeded to try to take off. Engine was really pulling good, the thing was gathering speed. At what seemed to be the right point I pulled back on the elevator, but it did not lift off. It just kept going faster. About this time I realize that I have used up most of the runway, so it is time to abort because it was not lifting off. Just would not rotate. I cut the throttle back to idle, and as soon as I did that it shot up in the air!
So now I have this taper wing snap roll special about ten feet above a fence at the end of the runway, the engine is at idle, and the nose is pointing up. Not good. Reflexively I gave it throttle and hoped the engine would wind up before it fell out of the air. It did rev up and the plane barely survived. This was a moment I remember very clearly. If that thing had crashed, I would have felt real bad.

I trimmed the plane, flew it for a bit and landed it. Looking it over- the engine had enough down thrust to just keep it glued on the ground. Visually it is hard to tell just how much engine thrust offset there is.

Anyway, from that time I have just resolved to help newcomers get their trainers going. I like helping people fly, but I strongly encourage flyers to step up gradually as they want to try more aerobatic or scale planes, and develop their own experience in handling trickier planes. In the example above, the owner was in no way ready to handle the type of pattern plane I test flew for him.

Cyclic Hardover

My Feedback: (3)

I have been at this 5 years myself. Seen alot. But I will not test fly somebodys plane. Its simply not worth it. But on the other hand, I have saved countless planes. This I do not mind. When somebody is in trouble, I am more than happy to take over and bring it in. You really can't take blame on this because his cheese is already weak.
* I also do not train. Our club had designated trainers and training days. Alot of people simply have no manners. They expect you to drop what your doing and ruin your quality time to train theminstead of showing up when theyare suppose to.
*You fix something on their plane and 10 minutes later, you look over and he is fooling with it again. I got in this hobby for myself not others. I do help, give advice and fix things and save planes but at my own speed.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

I have tested hundreds of planes for people. Have been doing since I was about 12. Love doing it. Lots of fun and you get to test so many different designs. I have lost very few. One came apart in the air due to bad building, one lost a rudder, for the same reason and another got shot down. I have saved some that would have never been saved if the owner would have flown them. It is a lot of fun You just have to make sure they know that anything could happen, you are helping them, and if something goes bad, you are not responcible. I have never lost one due to a mistake I made. I don't over stress someones plane to test it and try to pull it apart like some test pilots. I figure they can do that. It is nice to help them out and make sure it is trimmed so a newer pilot doesn't destroy a new plane.

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

I will test fly/train people if I must. I really dont like doing it as I dont really like the extra thought of what if.... But I always tell them, if something fails in flight, its not my fault!!

Afterward its always fun

Jim D

My Feedback: (8)

I only test-fly planes for other club members who have A: Seen me fly and know that I am a capable pilot. B: Address any issues found with the plane before flight. C: Agree that I am not responsible for any unforseen equipment failures or such if the plane does crash.

So far so good. Beleive it or not, the hairiest one so far was a Kadet LT40!. Took off and deadsticked at about 15ft above the end of the runway. Problem was it was WAY out of trim. Making a quick downwind abort with a plane you have to hold 50-60% down elevator on to fly level and ailerons were out as well. I got it down fine, but I couldn't believe how uncomfortable it was landing something that far out of trim. Not natural at all.

eduk8r

My Feedback: (10)

I recently did the inital flight on my son's plane. I told him, as I tell anyone," There are NO guarantees!"

Unstable

I had someone ask me to maiden their plane after I had only a month of solo time... needless to say I refused politley.

Now I help with first flights when someone asks but I always check everything I can and make sure they understand that if anything happens during the flight that its their model...

I have also helped "save" a model that someone had a bit too much throw setup for them... got it trimmed out for him and got it on the ground till he could dial out some throw on his radio. I guess all that time with those fun flys comes in handy.

Deadstik

My Feedback: (8)

I found your post very interesting as I have had a few of the very same thoughts myself concerning "pilot in command liability." Not being an attorney I have no idea as to the actual "legal" ramifications of test pilot duty but I do have these thoughts. I always tell each owner that I will do my best, but cannot guarantee anything. I check everything from radio/engine installation to CG because as we all know, everyone is capable of a building error. Test flights are just that...5 minutes or so to determine if throws are ok, high and low speed characteristics (stall speed), and basic trim. As for the aerobatics, that is done after the plane flies straight ! I realize I am echoing most of the thoughts of other test pilots here but I wish to make the point that someone needs to extend a hand to help the new plane owner. Nobody wants to see 2 to 6 months work snap on takeoff because someone didn't do a thorough pre-flight. Not that it makes a difference, but I fly R/C just like I do full scale, with precision. A good test pilot is going to test the plane safely and in turn keep the rest of the pilots and spectators at the field safe. That is the object of the game and I haven't ever needed the insurance. I will continue to test fly and teach. It's a lot of fun and really rewarding. The free Cokes are nice !!

Deadstik :-)

Unstable

there is a quote from the airline industry that does apply.


check flights should be like skirts.

short enough to be interesting but long enough to cover everything.

gone.

Very interesting post and I must say I probably have not made enough noise about the fact that flight failures will not (should not) put the responsibility on me. I absolutely will not fly something I'm not comfortable with or I should say of a type I'm not familiar with. Not having had experience with an autogyro if Harry Gyro shows up with his autogyro I won't be test flying it. As most here have said a good preflight and making sure questionable items are repaired are a key to success. I do love helping others and I do love the adrenalin rush of a maiden flight.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

The way I see it, If you're flying anything other than a basic advanced trainer, you should do your own test flying.

If you bring an expensive, highly areobatic plane to the field, and need someone else to maiden it for you, I suggest you put it back in your car and go back to an advanced trainer until you know what the hell you're doing.

Flyfalcons

MinnFlyer that's a very good point, but I can understand someone wanting someone a little calmer to go fly their plane. As for my own maidens, I definitely like to have a few sets of eyes checking the plane out, but I'll do the flying because the way I figure is 1) I can handle it and most importantly 2) If something goes horribly wrong then at least I got to fly my plane before its demise.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

My first R/C was in the 50's, almost everything was rudder only. In thosr days the difference from a rank beginner to the most accomplished pilot was miniscule, if the plane would fly anyone could fly it. Such is not the case today.

So, does that mean I have 50 years' experience, or one year repeated 50 times? Or maybe one month repeated 600 times?

Remember the old full scale saw: "There are two kinds of pilots - those who have landed with the gear up, and those who are going to."

Point is, sooner or later, only the most fortunate will not have a component failure, or just make a dumb mistake.

And I still prefer having someone elase do the maiden on one of my planes. When I'm not worrying about keeping it in the air I can give it much closer observation, making notes for any needed corrections.

And I am more than willing to return the favor.

If my plane is returned to the form of a kit.
. I'll just start over, don't even say "Oh S.........PHOOEY!

Bill.

PS: I've had two gear up landings, One was mechanical, the other was the result of the Bad Guys "Expressing their displeasure" at my presence in their airspace. Neither was pilot error. wr.

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

There have been a lot of good ideas and comments.

I agree that test flights should be short and preflight checks are a must. I always explain that no matter what happens, the owner relieves me of all responsibility; however, I will do my best. Legally, I'm sure this verbal arrangement won't stand up. I am confident in my ability to fly, but the unknown of building flaws worries me.

I'll have to think more about why the pilot wants me to test fly his/her plane. It makes sense that if someone brings out a plane way beyond their ability, I shouldn't fly it. It stands to reason that if the plane's performance is beyond the builders ability, the building probably was too.

Maybe I was being too harsh on my decision to refuse to test fly. I think I'll just use a bit more caution and take into consideration why the owner wants me to fly the plane. My guess is that I'll be refusing more test flights this year. I refused about 50% of test flights last year. I don't want to come off as a snob with my refusals, I'd just rather have a reputation of safe test flights. Like last year, I'll just politely explain why I won't fly the plane. If owners still get upset because I won't fly a plane, tough monkey cheese.

Nitro Blast

My Feedback: (2)

I have tested/trimmed & flown hundreds of planes that arent mine, the most recent one was a PT 19 with a 91 2-stroke on it just a few weeks ago. Inspection is essential to knowing your own confidence level with the equipment.

I offer my colleagues, friends and customers the "Bro Warrenty"
when I fly their planes. I wont fly someone elses Helicopter though...

Oh on the "Bro Warrenty"?


After a crash (which I have never had with someone elses bird)
I'll say: "Sorry, Bro"

Goinstraightup

My Feedback: (26)

I've test flown lots of planes for people. Mostly trainers with no surprises. I've had a few test flights that were pretty scary though. I flew a Dynaflite Spitfire once and it was a screamer that needed all the trim levers input. Sig Wonders really move too. I test flew a few of those.

rcflyguy_26

My Feedback: (8)

I also test fly new aircraft for some of the guys. Most of them are good pilots. They will usually ask me a few weeks before. I will meet them at the field or at their home to look it over. I will usually take it up, trim it, them hand it over for a few Min. then they give it back for the first landing. In a few cases they will want me to take it up again for a ring-out. I'll ring it out good, land, then explain how it felt.

Now it's his turn. Most times they go on to fly with no problems. BUT... A few times the next flight is the planes last. This really breaks my heart when this happens.

Later, Scott

cabanestrut2002

i only test fly planes that i have checked out thouroughly and if theres somehting i dont like then they have to find someone else or go home and rectify it. i also make sure that they owner understands that i am not the one at fault if there is a failure of the model, i havent had any accidents yet:-)

Starpoint

My Feedback: (5)

Here is an opinion from the view of a new guy. I started flying 10 months ago. My first trainer was sold to me by the pilot who was going to teach me. (no test flight needed) I ended up going solo and lost that plane. I bought another ARF trainer and had never put one together. I brought it to the field and ask for someone to look it over. all looked ok, range check ok, eng ok. I ask for a test flight and low and behold on the secont lap the ailerons malfuntioned He saved the plane by flying with the rudder. Had I test flown, I would need a new trainer. I am a better pilot now and just finished a scratch built stick. again I ask for a test flight I am sure the test pilot would look for thing during the flight I never would have thought of.

I look at it like this the guys who test fly are providing us with a valuable service. If we are asking them to test a plane it is because we feel they are more experinced, and we value their opinions. because of this if a plane is lost by the more experinced pilot then how could you have saved it. Therefor I never hold a test pilot responcible, and I have lost a plane during a test. and I know I could not have saved it and it had a better chance getting home with the test pilot flying.

chris-s

I might test fly one of my own planes, but generally persuade one of the other more competent fliers to try them out first, particularly if it is a style I haven't flown before, recently a Vulcan and a couple of large bi-planes.

Not that I expect them to be problematic, but if something does go awry, well, they have more chance of saving it than I would, just from their experience. Plus, I can see how they fly, what sort of inputs they require and how they land.

I did lose one model on a test flight, but there really was nothing the test pilot could do about it. He obviously felt bad, and so did I for putting him in that position, but, I never refer to the incident as the one 'he' crashed/lost, it's the one that just got away from us.


Cheers,

Chris

PS Daniel, update your signature, it is now http://rcflyers.net!

wrbirch

My Feedback: (1)

Hi, was the NEWBEE that asked you to test fly my plane, But YOU MADE me fix all those LITTLE things that don't matter, After two days of fixing those LITTLE things at home I came Back. You MADE me fix One more thing and test flew my plane, Gosh, I wish you would have just flown it the first day the way it was, It would have crashed and I wouldn';t have had it to fly the rest of the summer and Gotten HOOKED buy this Hobbie.

Giant Scale

This is an interesting comment just not one I would expect from you... MinnFlyer. You always seem to offer such helpful advice.
I have all my planes checked out by the club safety officer/instructor before I attempt to fly them. Even if you have been flying a few years there is no substitute for a pilot who has been flying for 30 years. I am grateful for the more experienced members at the club. I consider myself a fairly competent builder but have only recently started flying the planes I build. I have been building planes for probably close to 20 years but never really had the desire to fly them. Watching my creation perform in the hands of a seasoned pilot is extremely satisfying, more so than flying the plane myself. There are many competent pilots who don't build there own planes, they either fly ARF's or have someone build the planes for them. As far as liability that is the reason we have insurance. Unless a test pilot blatently crashed my plane I don't place blame on them. This is the risk you take when asking someone else to fly. So to all you test pilots keep offering your services just tell the plane owners that you will not be held responsible for a crash due to circumstances beyond your control.