khodges

My Feedback: (1)

I always thought the initials were a reference to the size of the airplanes they flew over there; Big ..... ...... Airplanes.

Flyfalcons

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a prescribed set of maneuvers that a new pilot should be capable of flying before being allowed to fly without an instructor at the field. We have too many morons in this world who feel they are competent when they are really not, and I don't want to ever get mowed down by an errant plane at the field because no one took the time to properly instruct the new pilot. The original list looks like a good set of fundamental skills that all pilots should have before flying on their own.

Ken Erickson

Darn, for the last 40 years I have called a "Race Track" pattern. Now I learn I have been flying in circles.

Come to think of it, there was a time that all the "aerobatics" where done in the "infield'.

"The only constant is change." Needed the quotes, as I wouldn't like to spread the plague er Ize, not to do that.

Ken Erickson

Montague

The only issue I have with a "checklist" is that you get over-eager newbies who manage to do it once and then demand to be able to fly by themselves. Getting the plane up and down once or even 2-3 times does not a pilot make. I've seen plenty of students manage a couple of shaky take offs and landings, then really botch one. What happens on that botch depends on the situation. Normally the instructor saves it. Otherwise, the plane goes into the pits.

I don't turn a newbie loose until I know that when they crash it won't be behind the flight line.

There's also no clear agreement on what a landing is. Anything that doesn't break the plane? Anything that does't break the prop? Does the motor have to remain running? Or should it look like a decent landing, with controlled flight around the traffic pattern, a straight, smooth approach, and a flair to a mains-first touchdown? Just about any fool can perform semi-controlled-flight-into-runway followed by a rollout sponsored by captain kangaroo. With most trainers, you won't even break anything with this approach. But I won't sign someone off if that's the best they can do. (note, best. Everyone, even me, screws up a landing once in a while)

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Why shouldn't we then extend this line of thought to drivers on the highway? There's a lot more of them than us, and the potential for disaster (proven every day on the 6 o'clock news) is also much greater.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of that thought. Unfortunately, the way society operates today, nobody is proven incompetent or unsafe until someone or something suffers damage from their lack of ability or forethought. Is someone flying over the pits, or backwards to the pattern, or doesn't preflight their plane, or is careless around their spinning prop dangerous to others and themselves? Hell Yes. But until they cut themselves, or crash in the pits, they haven't done a thing "wrong".

The best we can do, "we" being the experienced, or the club officials, is to set forth minimum expected behavior, make sure the newbie knows how to check things before flight, make it down the runway in the right direction, know how to make it around the field, whether he stays right side up or at nearly the same altitude all the way is extra, and can get it back on the ground in some manner that the plane is mostly usable again. If he strays from the "minimum expected behavior", watch him more closely and remind him of those expectations. If he continues to stray after a period in which MOST people get the hang of things, and seems reticent to improve, or unable to improve, send him on his way with recommendation to change either his attitude or his hobby.

Until then, all we can do is keep a third eye roving for impending disaster, and hope it doesn't occur. It could be an experienced pilot's plane we have to duck first, you never know.

Flyfalcons

We do, it's called Drivers Education and a driving test, as well as written, to get your license. Those on the highway have passed a prescribed set of driving maneuvers to validate their ability to safely handle their vehicle. Accidents will always happen and there's no getting around that, but we can help minimize that by giving new pilots enough instruction to be able to control their plane safely.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

We have that down here in the Deep South, too, but it's no guarantee that the "loose nut behind the wheel" has any more competence just because he knew answers on a test, and didn't hit anything during the driving exam. How many times a day do you see someone do some kind of bonehead move and wonder why Darwin hasn't removed them from the gene pool yet? (either on the road or at the field) and you know that they must be experienced.

Sure, you got to have rules, and I'm all for working with newbie pilots as long as it takes to help them learn the basics. Loading them down with rules isn't a solution to make them any safer, is my point, and some of the suggested "minimum" skills in this thread won't make them any safer and go way beyond what minimum flight skills are. Experience and consideration of cause and effect are all that will do that. Everyone gains experience as they go, but not everyone has the same grasp of cause and effect, and that can't be taught.

BillyGoat

Passing a state driving test doesn’t mean one is certified to drive a race car. Passing a private pilot exam doesn’t allow one to fly IFR, passengers for hire or teach another to fly. Each one of these, the person is tested to the standard in which they will be operating. Nothing more.

Testing minimum standards for flying R/C is just nonsense, it doesn’t prove the pilot is capable of anything beyond "Minimum" and how many people limit their flying to this?

Have new pilots been known to scatter people from the flight line? Yes they have, but their will always be pilots that will scare people long after they can pass what one group calls minimum standards. These guys will always fly to the limit of there skill and often beyond. Implementing a flight test just complicates things and in the end safety will be no better. Clubs need to reduce bureaucracy not create more.

If a new pilot does not have a comprehensive understanding of safety and can't land or take off a plane safely on his own. Need to talk with the person that instructed and released them for solo flights.

Montague

The problem with driving tests and RC piloting tests that you're talking about isn't a problem with the test itself. The problem is the lack of any requirement to keep current or even improve.

I've had student pilots solo, and go on to continue to improve their flying.

I've also had students who never seem to try to get better, and they often seem to get worse. They get more comfortable, which breeds a lack of caution and respect of the model and engine, thier landings seem to get worse as they stop trying to do anything other than not break the plane, and so on.

Short of a recurring qualification, or a requirement to keep current, there's nothing that can be done about any of those issues, and it's really a seperate subject.

As for solo tests, the key isn't getting the plane up adn down, the key is showing solid control. If you have a test, that's fine, but don't fall prey to the "checklist" mentality, and watch out for overly-goal-oriented students. I've had a few of them, guys who had no interest in learning to fly, only in getting soloed. There's a difference.

outdoorhunting

billygoat-- You hit the nail on the head. Just use common sense!!!!!!!!! I think the guys are trying to be politicaly correct. That's already screwing up our country, we don't need it in our hobby too.. You CAN'T cover everything that "might happen". You know like, well if he flys on Friday & it rained on Thursday, he should probably wear water proof boots, cause he might get wet feet & slip, & that would be a safety hazard !!! Do you get what I'm saying.. Later Ed

BillyGoat

If a club, for the sake of safety, is testing flying ability shouldn’t every airplane be certified for airworthiness too. A great majority of crashes happen due to equipment failure right? Since a lot of crashes happen when the pilot looses orientation of the plane, shouldn’t each pilot pass an eye exam. It’s a must for a drivers license.

Montague

Incorrect. The great majority of crashes are pilot error.

A lot of pilots will try to blame thier own mistakes on something else, but if you watch carefully, equipment failure causing a crash is very very rare.

While an eye exam is over the top, I know more than one ex-RC pilot who stopped flying (in one case it was suggested he stop flying) because he can't see the plane. And I know one very well known individual who is almost blind in some ways, but can still "fly" somewhat, with the help of others, and is safe in doing so. Unlike a car, models can have dual controls and such.

As for airworthyness checks, it's generally up to the pilot, but if you want to fly something over 55lbs under the AMA rules or fly in other parts of the world, there are such things. And I've heard of clubs that do inspections, though I think it's overkill myself.

I will say that if there was a pilot in my club who kept trying to fly unsafe aircraft, he would be told to stop doing that, either fix the planes or don't fly them. It's not a formal inspection, but unsafe is unsafe.

outdoorhunting

Also, I feel that before every flight the official club Tech Officer hired from a nuetral outside source should thouroghly go over each & every plane looking for any safety hazards that might develope during a flight. Also, I feel that EACH pilot should file a detailed flight plan as to how many loops, rolls etc., & in what sequence to make sure the pilot isn't going to do anything unsafe.!!!!!!! Also, you have to think about the colors of all the planes.. I'm afraid someone might be offended by my stars 'n stripes Chipmonk. So, I couldn't take it out of the truck. ON and On and On. Later ED

Roby

And the above must be signed in blood


LOL,
Roby

outdoorhunting

Hey, this politically correct stuff is catching on !!!! Before long, we'll have it so an astronaut wouldn't want to fly RC

BillyGoat

Montague, I was being facetious about the great number of crashes being linked to equipment failure. Like you said most would like to blame forces beyond there control.

Thank you for proving my points. You had a gentleman in your club that was requested not to fly due to poor eye sight. Yet this was done with out mandatory eye exam.

You would ask a fellow with an unsafe plane not to fly until it was fixed. Yet this could be done without an official aircraft airworthiness test.

My question is why can’t the same discretionary process be used with a pilot may exibt weak piloting skills? Is an official minimum skills test really necessary?

I’m just saying keep it simple!


outdoorhunting...[sm=thumbup.gif] [sm=biggrin.gif]

Flyfalcons

That is correct, but you can take a set of minimum skills and, if your proceed with common sense, build on those skills without substantial instruction from other club members. However, this thread is about evaluating the skills needed by new pilots to safely fly without an instructor at the field, nothing more. This is supposed to be a fun hobby and trying new things is part of that fun. We certainly don't need to be testing people on every new thing they want to try, but a simple skills evaluation before cutting a newbie loose certainly isn't out of line.

50+AirYears

We have had an instructor program for as long as the club has been around. We celebrated our 50th anniversary last year.

Our rules are very simple, and based on the AMA's safety code. Primary emphasis is safe flying. Most highly enforced field rule is No Flying over the Pits or people who may have to be on the field for aircraft retrieval! And our rules cover all kinds of flying: glow, electric, gas, turbine, fixed wing, helicopters, control line, and free flight. We accept, respect, and do it all. Even kite, boomerang, and model rocket.

Our "A" level is achieved fairly simply, and is just to show that you can control the direction the plane is headed. Takeoff, procedure turn, rectangular pattern, reasonably maintain altitude, safe landing. Take off again, fly the same pattern in reverse direction. Land and taxi back to the pits. Newbies fly with an instructor until the instructor and prospective pilot agree the student is ready for the test, administered by two other instructors. We've had people pass anywhere from their first day to one of the founders of the club passing on without ever having gotten good enough to solo. While a student, mistakes are taken with good humor, corrections suggested, and get back to flying. We're a bit stricter with "A" level pilots.

Guests, after certifying that they are qualifyed flyers, just have the basics explained to them; No flying over the pits, the no fly area extends from both ends of the flight line to infinity (over 20 acres of space to the East, no reason or excuse to fly behind), no taxiing in the pits, call out problems or landing intentions. Mufflers on engines over 0.09 size. Gas and turbine flyers will have a fire extinguisher. 10 mph speed limit on our approach road (Property owner's requirement. Location of our fire extinguishers and first aid kit. Location of the Porta-Potti. The guest will be watched either by his sponsor, or an instructor, until his ability is agreed on.

In the over 30 years I've been with the club, we've had no injuries resulting from improperly operated aircraft. We've had people getting careless around props, we've had poison ivy, sprained ankles, things like that, but nobody has ever been hit by a flying plane, nor has any property damage been reported because somebody got careless.

We did lose a number of members who thought "We don't need no freaken' rules, just use 'common sense'!" These were the most dangerous flyers we ever had. One of them almost crashed a .45 powered plane in the parking area, just missing a group of young kids playing around the parked cars. It was everybodys' fault but his. He left the club. We were already considering action about him before this incident. He was a great proponent of "Common Sense!"

No rules may have been OK in years past when one or two people could have square miles of open area away from other people and property, but in today's urban congestion, those days are generally long gone.

JollyPopper

My Feedback: (6)

I suppose there are any number of ways to approach a given situation. Our situation here is more unique than any I've ever encoutered anywhere else. We have one rule at our field--anyone who wants to fly can--period. That is because the property owner mandates it on the threat of closing the field if anyone is refused permission to fly. Now, on the surface, you would think that would produce total chaos. But the fact of the matter is, it doesn't. I've thought a lot about it and the only thing I can come up with is that when an individual understands and accepts that anything that happens to him is his responsibility, it simply makes him much more responsible. Maybe he pays more attention to what is transpiring around him than he normally would and I guess more defensive. At any rate, I have not heard of any kind of incident in the six years I've been here occuring at the field.

Obviously, this is not an AMA sanctioned field. There are no rules except than anyone who wants to fly can and you better stay the hell out of his way if he is incompetent. It works. You might also think that this being Arkansas and the lack of rules would mean very little activity at the field and the guys who show up are flying junk. Not so. According to AARP, this is in the top ten of all the places in the USA for retirees to migrate. As a result, there has been a TON of money brought into this area and that is reflected in the size and quality of the RC planes that show up here. Since retirees are old Circle Jerks for the most part, you would expect it to "scare the pants" off folks, but most of the time there are three or four guys flying and ten to twenty pilots not flying and sitting on tail gates of trucks or lawn chairs critiquing the flying skills of anyone who is flying. Most of them don't look very scared and some of the banter is pretty funny. Maybe they're just old and senile and without enough sense left to be scared.

There have been cases in the six years I've been here in which somebody who wants to be noticed will come in and demand to change things "for the better and the safety" of everyone else. Force rules on everyone and he gets to be the RC cop. Inevitably, those folks leave in an indignant huff once they realize it ain't happening and go off to open another field somewhere where he can be the RC cop. I'm not sure how any of those fields are going, but ours is still going strong.

As 50+AirYears said, this may not work in a highly congested urban area. But it seems to work here. This field is several miles from town with no major roads close. Only the live stock in the neighboring field and the occasional spectator to watch. And my position is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I have no idea what the legal ramifications of an accident would be. I would hope the offending pilot and the victim would get together and solve it, but so far it hasn't been an issue.

And RCPilot, how did your 3D pilots all get thousands of practice flights without there having been the first time--or the second time--or the fifth time? And your obvious bias against anyone over your age offends me. Is it your desire not to achieve 50 years or 60 years or older lest you become a Circle Jerk? Shame on you. I hope you didn't mean it.

I'm not saying that this is the way to do things or that I necessarily even agree with the lack of rules here, but it is working. There is always the possibility than an accident will occur and cause major changes. I hope not. It is a nice field and along with the lack of rules there is also a lack of cliques and tension that I have seen at more controlled fields. At the moment, everyone is getting along (what a concept!!!) as the malcontents have all stomped off and are out somewhere establishing new flying fields. Good for them. But there will be more.

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

I suppose that is the benefit of having private leased land for your club. In our case, being that our club is located in a city park, all a person need do is obtain AMA membership and let 'er rip. They could come out with no experience and try their first flight with a 42% gasser. There is nothing we could do to stop them and, though AMA is required by the Parks Dept., I doubt if we could get it enforced.

outdoorhunting

Sounds like common sense still works !!!!!

Lucky Dog

My Feedback: (1)

"Common sense is not so common.” - Voltaire

“You can't legislate intelligence and common sense into people” - Will Rogers

Not to say that most fliers display common sense. But to assume that all do, and bet the ranch on it, would be foolhardy IMHO.

That being said..

“It is a thousand times better to have common sense without education than to have education without common sense.” - Robert Green Ingersoll

R/C Art

My Feedback: (38)

Well put my friend!

So now what are you doing to do?

Lucky Dog

My Feedback: (1)

Oh, probably something to the effect...

"Common sense" would indicate (or dictate) that a flier should be capable of these basic maneuvers.
A
B
C
D
"Basic maneuvers" yet to be be determined, but likely a slightly simplified version of the initial proposal.

Refraim form incorporating them into the safety rules. Perhaps refer to them as a club/field requirement.


......a work in progress.

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Hey Jollypopper!

Can I come and fly at your field next time I'm in Arkansas? You guys sound like my kind of folks. I like modelers that believe in personal responsibility. We are each responsible for our OWN safety.

If someone is flying in a manner YOU think is unsafe, YOU should stand down until that person is finished. If you think that several guys are flying in an unsafe manner, you might be a RC TALIBAN and part of the problem.

If a newbie shows up, has never flown before, refuses help and still wants to fly, no problem. Land your plane, check his insurance, grab a trash bag, and watch the show. It's a rare person that refuses help when offered and willingly attempts to fly knowing he will look like a fool. We all know how long the walk is out to the carcass and back!

I've had the pleasure of visiting many fields around the country and amazingly the least regulated fields are just as safe and a lot more fun than the rule infested fields.

It's a HOBBY, right? These are MODEL planes, right?

Keep the rules to a bare minimum and have fun!