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Sepulveda Basin

Old 08-04-2007, 11:11 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin


ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch

What do they think caused the fire in flight? Maybe the turbine came loose or?
I was watching the jets from along the fence north of the pit area, and I don't remember seeing the plane catch fire in flight. I remember hearing the turbine flame out, then watched the jet come in short of the runway and crash. Only after the crash did I see flames...
Old 08-04-2007, 11:35 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

I say just ban jets as they are so dangerous and even when you are safety concious things like this can happen. Did they cancel the rest of the meet?[]
Bob
Old 08-04-2007, 11:41 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Cris,
By your logic, we shouldn't ban drinking alcohol while driving because, look, people crash anyway.

Jonkoppisch,
To the best of my knowledge, there were NO XPS products involved in the plane that was lost today. The F4 Phantom was the only plane in the air at the time and had just turned upwind for a slow pass along the runway when it caught fire in flight. Shortly after it caught fire, it lost all control and came short of the runway by about 75 feet. There were two, possibly three spots along about a 100 foot stretch that caught fire which merged into a single fire. About 1/2 acre burned. Very little was recovered from the plane. No electronics or structural components, only the engine itself, and we pulled out the mains and nosegear, but they were severly damaged. The cause could not be determined, but one possibility put forth is that the exhaust tube collapsed.


Control has been an issue at the basin. This also lets me make a correction on what I stated earlier. The basin is not a city park, it is a county park. Being a county park open to the general public, neither the the Valley Fliers or any of the three clubs based here, the Black Sheep Squadron, Giant Scale Squadron, or Valley Circle Burners, have the authority to stop the actions of others beyond asking the individual, or calling the police or park rangers in the rare event of something extreme. The only exception is when the field is closed to the general public when one of the clubs has obtained a permit for exclusive use of the field, such as the jet rally. Also, being located where we are, there are both height and speed restrictions at the basin.


Beckerfest,
While not good at all, and we certainly would have hoped for a completely accident free day, I would hesitate to say it was the worst of our fears. No one was hurt. To me, it looked like the county also used it as a training exercise. They also made 2 heli drops. Thier total operation, from arival to departure, was about an hour or so. As they were leaving, they were looking on at the jets in the pits with quite a few smiles.

Scott


I edited this to correct a significant typo. In the first line in response to Jonkoppisch, I forgot to type the word no. I have now added it.

Scott

Old 08-04-2007, 11:48 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Bob, no, the rest of the event was not cancelled. Yes, even if you ban jets, things like this can, and have happened. Though I've not personally witnessed them, it's my understanding that there have been a couple of LiPo fires at the basin and I would be very suprised if there were not fires as the result of glow engines or gas engines. Any high energy device has the potential to cause a fire, even if it is the result of a spark from a rock on impact.
Old 08-04-2007, 11:50 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

saramos said "To the best of my knowledge, there were XPS products involved in the plane that was lost today. "

Tell us to the best of your knowledge what the XPS products were that were used in that jet.

Bob
Old 08-05-2007, 12:16 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Ooops! I ment to, and thought I had typed NO. Let me clarify.

To the best of my knowledge, there were NO XPS products involved in the plane that was lost today.

Thanks for catching, and pointing out my error.

Scott
Old 08-05-2007, 12:57 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

ORIGINAL: canavanbob

I say just ban jets as they are so dangerous and even when you are safety concious things like this can happen.
Even the little electric planes can cause a fire if one crashes and the LiPo shorts out. So I don't think we should start cheering for the jet guy's ox to be gored...

Actually, I didn't think the brush fire was a big deal. The field over which the planes fly doesn't have any trees or much heavy brush (mostly tall dry grass), and is surrounded by green, watered park land (and a golf course on the west side) that doesn't look likely to burn. The fire was knocked down quickly by the first of the fire trucks to arrive. The only property damaged was the guy's jet...[&o]

Old 08-05-2007, 01:24 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

big kid,
I guess you are right the fire was not a big deal. They probably should have just let it burn itself out like a controlled brush fire.
Bob
Old 08-05-2007, 01:48 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

It is believed that the crash involving the model F4 was due to a faulty tailpipe. Either the mounts for the pipe came loose and the pipe shifted or it collapsed for some unknown reason. Eitherway the motor was still running and cooking the tail section causing the elevator servos to fail. Too bad as it was a good looking plane.

Other than the hour or so delay the day was very enjoyable.

Billy
Old 08-05-2007, 08:09 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Just curious: what F-4 kit was it and what brand of tail pipe? Thanks.
Old 08-05-2007, 08:09 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

I talked to one of my friends (a few days ago) who is an engineer for JPL and knows a S--- load about radios and radar (yea i have some pretty smart friends) and he asked me why they went with the single antenna on the reciever for the XPS system, I told him it was there design and he asked me what where they thinking, I told him it was that Sphearical Radiation Technology of XPS,, he said that was good and all but you would need to find out how many 2.4 signals sources there are in the air especialy in the Valley. He then did some research on the subject and there system and came back to me and frowned for a second and made a funny look, and said, well it should work ok, but the reciever it might loose data, not from the transmitter but from singal overlap from other outside soruces and that it might just be in the antenna setup how it only has 1 little antenna and not a set of 4 antennas like the other systems. The possible cause is that the Basin is in the Valley and there is just too many signals in the air that it might be possible that the signals are getting blocked and/or are being nulled which might be the case.

Now here is my opinion. I will still let other do "BETA" testing. From what I've seen, Spectrum has done a wonderfull job with there radios and the 7000 series recievers, (excluding the 6200 as it is claimed to be full range when you can't get a solid range check as compaired to the 7000 series here in the Basin). I have not seen that many Futaba Fasst systems yet, so I would like to see them more to unofficialy evaluate them more. I have seen JR's module system, and even thou one crash of a plane was using the JR system, it was not the radio that caused the crash. Then you have XPS,,, as others have said before "It works great, up untill it stops working"....... Now i have seen and unofficialy evaluated that too at the field, and lets just say that if I wouldn't use even if you paid me., Maybe XPS would work fine at a field other than at the Basin, which i'm sure it does.


I would like to hear more from other Pilots at the Basin (or other flying sites within major metropolitan areas) on this subject with XPS Lockouts in flight,,, Not from people who live in on a farm or desert who will most likely never see the types of problems as the ones that have been experianced at the Basin.

Gene
Old 08-05-2007, 08:13 PM
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ORIGINAL: canavanbob

I say just ban jets as they are so dangerous and even when you are safety concious things like this can happen. Did they cancel the rest of the meet?[]
Bob
Did your mother cancel you,,,, Nope, she skipped the Abortion Clinic and had you anyways.........



Gene
Old 08-05-2007, 08:20 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

ORIGINAL: JasonP

snipped...

All the Best
Jason Pakfar
Valley Flyers President





To Whom It May Concern:


I purchased one of the first production XPS Tx modules for a Futaba 9C and 10Ch Rx from the Toledo show several months ago. After installing the equipment per manufacturer recommendations, I flew it on a 40 sise Zero at the Sepulveda Basin in California. While flying the airplane, I felt the controls to be “sluggish”. This did not inspire confidence. I immediately landed the airplane after approximately two minutes of flight. I removed the Rx from the airplane and replaced it with the original 72mhz rx. I flew the airplane again and everything was back to “normal”. The controls felt solid without and perceived “sluggishness”

In conclusion I do not feel confident in the XPS system as it is now. I would not recommend the system to be flown at the Sepulveda Basin.



Vahe (Mike) Arabian
AMA 734177
Turbine Waiver FW12620

As stated in this, he did get one of the first units... IE, with the old antennae which was changed after finding interference in the LV area. Everyone was told that if there was any doubt to send in the module so that it could be updated. I'd be curious to know if the others were of the new style or not???? In the accounts, there seems to be a lot of room for in-accuracies, ie, setups, battery voltages, install locations, etc etc etc...
Old 08-05-2007, 09:29 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Not sure on the tail pipe, but I think it was a Century Jet model.
Old 08-05-2007, 10:59 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Excellent event Billy!!!! Great job. Can't wait for the next one. The General Lee inspired me to say the least. Was great seeing everyone. Perfect weather and wind conditions. Thanks to everyone from out of town or just down the road for coming. !~).

Lou's F4 was a Tom Cook jet. I heard tail pipe collapsed.

Joe



ORIGINAL: Philo

Not sure on the tail pipe, but I think it was a Century Jet model.
Old 08-05-2007, 11:11 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Oh yeah, that's right, I was thinking of James' Mig, Sorry my fault.

It was nice that everyone got tons of flights in. That's what it's about at LA Jets, FLy,FLy, FLy.

Billy
Old 08-06-2007, 12:03 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

It was just a matter of time before XPS would have been banned somewhere........

Sorry Jimmy Drew but It has happened...

Hum..... I wonder why they use 4 antennas on them other spectrum recievers for full range?

Gene
Old 08-06-2007, 01:01 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Good times today. Tons of flying, tons of fun. Burned a lot of Kero/Jet A. Thanks to Jason, Billy and others for the event. Keep ‘em coming!!

FYI: I did send the original XPS system for the “new” replacement antenna. I sold it afterwards since I did not want to test any of my aircraft with the “new” system. I had lost confidence in XPS module for the 9C and the 10ch Rx after my own experience (sluggish aileron control) and seeing my friends have problems using the same equipment as mine at the Basin. I will not fly this system in any of my aircraft at least at the Sepulveda Basin. This is only my opinion/experience and applies only to the Sepulveda Basin.

To those that are having success, I wish you well and have fun.

Mike
Old 08-06-2007, 05:29 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin


ORIGINAL: Kriptonic69

I talked to one of my friends (a few days ago) who is an engineer for JPL and knows a S--- load about radios and radar (yea i have some pretty smart friends) and he asked me why they went with the single antenna on the reciever for the XPS system, I told him it was there design and he asked me what where they thinking, I told him it was that Sphearical Radiation Technology of XPS,, he said that was good and all but you would need to find out how many 2.4 signals sources there are in the air especialy in the Valley. He then did some research on the subject and there system and came back to me and frowned for a second and made a funny look, and said, well it should work ok, but the reciever it might loose data, not from the transmitter but from singal overlap from other outside soruces and that it might just be in the antenna setup how it only has 1 little antenna and not a set of 4 antennas like the other systems. The possible cause is that the Basin is in the Valley and there is just too many signals in the air that it might be possible that the signals are getting blocked and/or are being nulled which might be the case.

Now here is my opinion. I will still let other do "BETA" testing. From what I've seen, Spectrum has done a wonderfull job with there radios and the 7000 series recievers, (excluding the 6200 as it is claimed to be full range when you can't get a solid range check as compaired to the 7000 series here in the Basin). I have not seen that many Futaba Fasst systems yet, so I would like to see them more to unofficialy evaluate them more. I have seen JR's module system, and even thou one crash of a plane was using the JR system, it was not the radio that caused the crash. Then you have XPS,,, as others have said before "It works great, up untill it stops working"....... Now i have seen and unofficialy evaluated that too at the field, and lets just say that if I wouldn't use even if you paid me., Maybe XPS would work fine at a field other than at the Basin, which i'm sure it does.


I would like to hear more from other Pilots at the Basin (or other flying sites within major metropolitan areas) on this subject with XPS Lockouts in flight,,, Not from people who live in on a farm or desert who will most likely never see the types of problems as the ones that have been experianced at the Basin.

Gene
Just curious did your engineer friend do his research just at XPS's website or did he dig deep enough and find out that the antenna design is not XPS's design. The radio chips and antenna design is from MaxStream. It is the XBee-Pro. Check under the antenna connections tab and you will find the whip antenna configuration.

http://www.maxstream.net/products/xb...ule-zigbee.php

Everyone seems to be under the impression that XPS came up with and designed the single antenna design. That is not the case. Also XPS is working on the ability to have a satelite receiver for those who feel the need to have multiple receivers.
Old 08-06-2007, 06:27 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

So the xps wasn't tried at the basin with the new antennae? That's exactly why the modification was made!

Funny, it must vary from field to field on which 2.4 system gets hit. This is from another thread...

I use to preach the merits of 2.4ghz when i first got my DX-7. Since then, I've lost 1 plane and my friend has lost 2 from lock-outs. I've been using my 14mz on 72mhz exclusively and will continue to do so until the 2.4 bugs are ironed out. I've seen more planes lost on Spektrum than I have seen from channel conflicts.
http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/279035-post371.html
Old 08-06-2007, 06:28 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

...
Old 08-06-2007, 10:39 AM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Why would XPS ship out a unit and then change it after it's in the hands of the public??????? You can figure that one out
Gene
Old 08-06-2007, 11:16 AM
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Most companys change things after a release. For example: firmware updates, software changes, etc

Apears to me the changed from the whip antenna configuration to the dipole antenna configuration on the TX module to improve things. Seems like customer service to me. At least they are willing to take suggestions and input from customers and make the neccessary changes.

If you look at the radiation patterns from MaxStream website the difference between the whip antenna and the dipole antenna configurations is not very much. A little difference, but not huge.

Old 08-06-2007, 12:13 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Here in the cornfields of Indiana (oops, I mean the second largest city with a population of 500k+) the old XPS system works just fine! I bought mine at Toledo when they first became available and had the OLD antenna style (still has it). I think these pictures show it seems to work ok - of course it IS in Indiana, where clearly no one has any technology to speak of...

OK, I'm just givin you Cali boys a bit of grief. I WILL say that out here we've had a number of Spektrum issues (myself included). I have no reports for Futaba, basically because there aren't any to speak of here. A number of guys here are running XPS in their jets (Bobcat, Lightings etc.) and we've done just fine. I hope you guys get the chance to actually have someone analyze the bands to see what you actually are dealing with. I've been by your field before a number of times when traveling in the LA area, and you've got a TIGHT area to try to be keeping a turbine in. I'd be shocked if people aren't piercing that 400ft ceiling constantly. I hope you guys get the chance to use ANY system out there, and know for sure if your airwaves are "dirty" or not.

Here's a pic of my 90SE w/XPS "working" in the cornfields.. maybe you guys outta move out here!
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Old 08-06-2007, 04:05 PM
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Default RE: Sepulveda Basin

Well it boils down to this,,,, XPS is a good option to replace the module from an existing FM transmitter and make it 2.4, But as we have seen at our field here in the Basin it has had problems, serious problems, Till they get resolved, i wouldn't put money in the hands of XPS.

Gene

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