tenacious101010

My Feedback: (97)

Lets say a sanctioned AMA flying club had $20,000 disappear from their account and the treasurer was determined to be the one who made off with the money. Lets also say the president of the club and the board did not ensure there was a periodic audit performed.
1. Who should the members hold accountable for the loss of their money?
2. Should the board be held accountable as well as the treasurer?
3. Should the board be allowed to remain in office?
4. Should the treasurer be charged with a crime?
5. How responsible is the president and the rest of the board?
6 How responsible is the general membership?
7. Should this board be reelected?

Please keep comments to serious evaluations of how this should be handled and if anyone has experienced a similar situation, please share the experience as well as the outcome.
Thanks, Denny

Sport_Pilot

I would say the treasurer should be held acountable, the president fired and kicked out of the club.  And this thread moved to the AMA forum.

vpresley

My Feedback: (162)

This is a NO BRAINER, Call the Police, have the moron arrested for embezzlement. End of story. As for the Club Officers, nothing. Their is a lot of trust and friendship involved in Clubs. When trust is broken by one, you cant or shouldnt hold anyone else responsible. A trust and friendship has been broken. Now as for the future, accounting practices should be put in place to prevent this from happening again. You cant forsee being stabbed in the back in most cases. Sorry Sport Pilot cant agree with your very judgemental opinion. What if you were an officer and had no way to see this coming. Its not guilty until proven innocent, its the other way around. Attitudes like yours cause nothing but problems, and are generally not fair to the persons involved.


Vince AMA 7051

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Since you refer to a "Sanctioned" AMA club (rather than the proper term, "Chartered") I'll assume you're not an officer and just speculating on a hypothetical situation.

In that situation, it would be proper for the club officers to seek legal counsel. That counsel could answer all questions and make valid recommendations.

A member (not an officer) could spend a lot of money consulting that counsel, only to find out he had little status in the matter. If you were that member, you would be best served by sticking to specifics.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

tenacious101010

My Feedback: (97)

Interesting responses. They are opinions so there is no right or wrong one. Without reading too much into the question, what is the purpose of election qualified board members? What would their responsibility in their position be? Would management of resources be one of them? Should they never be held accountable? The more I ponder the proposed situation, the more questions I have. Thanks for the inputs guys, all are appreciated.

macdona

My Feedback: (3)

This actually happened in our club. The treasure left town and wasn't heard from for some time. Really nice guy and once he contacted his family and said he wanted to talk to the officers, we had a discussion with him. The family sold, borrowed, and did every thing they could to come up with the money and paid the club back. We then dropped charges against him. He since has become a model citizen.

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

In the future do what my club does. Have the officers bonded. Dennis

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

I'm with vpresley on this. The treasurer, if he indeed took the money, is guilty of embezzlement, and at the sum of $20,000 this is not petty theft.

Given the nature of club friendship, the club officers might decide to give him one chance to pay it back within a specified amount of time, or be charged with embezzlement.

To prevent such an occurrence in the future, the bank account can be set up to require two signatures (like the treasurer's, plus the president's or VP's signature) on all checks or withdrawals.

tenacious101010

My Feedback: (97)

I will give my opinion on this one. This guy stole money from me and the others in the club, I do not take this lightly. The last guy that stole my hard earned money, I caught him trying to steal my van at midnight. I ran after him with a bat and wasnt able to catch him but I did smashthe wing on the back of the getaway car. When the police officer asked what color the car was, I showed him the paint sample I obtained on my bat. He asked what I would have done if I had caught up to the guy, I told him I would have had teeth and hair on my bat, I could have given the police a DNA sample.
I have been the president of the board of directors for one large group, the vice president of another and a board member of others. I see it as the responsibility of all on the board to ensure that the groups assets are managed reasonably. They dont serve much of a purpose if they cant do that. I think the honor and trust this is well and good but anyone in such a position has the responsibility to verify that trust.
Denny

rc34074

My Feedback: (5)

I agree that the member who takes money like this should be prosecuted if they don't repay it in a short time. On the other hand how do you prove they took it - that is, what real rules do you have that control whatt he club money is or should be spent on? And how do you know if someone is faking a cost and pocketing the money? So how would they ever be prosecuted in court?

I wonder how many clubs are set up to even know if someone has taken money from the club. I'll bet many clubs would have no idea if the treasurer or someone else was doing this until it got to be a BIG part of the club treasury - and even then how do the club members know how much should be there? Do they get regular written reports that summarize the club income and expenses in enough detail to figure out if this is happening? Many clubs have a hard time getting people to be officers at all much less take the time to check up on each other. And how many guys would be willing to do this if they have to go through a background check to be bonded?

Maybe if there was an online place you could get club bylaws and easily get cheap insurance? Or simplified bonding?

Okay I have written some stuff here - waht do you guys think?

Ed

tenacious101010

My Feedback: (97)

rc, I agree with ensuring there is a structure in place for finances, that is part of the reason I began this thread, to help prevent reoccurances of this type of event. It can be devastating to a club. Times are hard, money is not easy to come by for me, and I work hard for it. If someone's is low enough to steal from others, they have given up their right to be treated as an equal. But, its very important to have a structure in your club to minimize the opportunity for someone to do such a thing. I realize people make bad decisions, I have made my fair share of them too and I am not without compassion. I also know we all make decisions, the results of our decisions are our responsibility. A lesson it seems is not taught often enough in my opinion, and far too many people are willing to sell their diginity and self respect for so little...

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

I want to know how the club obtained $20,000!

Geeze, if anyone took off with our treasury they couldn't even afford to fill the tank on the getaway car!

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Read in the paper here once a month or so of some PTA or soccer club treasurer getting thrown in jail.

I would involve the police, plain and simple. That much I'm sure is a felony.

weathervane

I am the treasure of our club. We have two (2) accounts, one is a day to day account the other is a field fund. Basicly if we ever need to build or find a new field, we will have a few bucks put away for it. Now, I am not saying that we have $20,000 in the bank. We do have a tad more than a tank of gas though.

If atreasure was to steel from a club, I think charges should be brought up against that person. I personally feel, (just my thoughts) the club president should be over looking all Banking stuff. Weather an audit, or a password to view the banking online. I feel it should be watched from the top down. Just my thoughts.
-Andrew

tommygun32

So; tenacious...let's say this isn't a hypothetical situation.

Are you asking us what we would do? Or are you asking us what we think YOU should do?

As usual....we only seem to have one side of the story.....

dakota97

If there were no checks and balances in place, I believe poor leadership would be one of your biggest problems. If this club is a legal Corporation, it should be run as one. Friendship has it's place. Business is business.

slopoke

My Feedback: (16)

I'm with Dad, Treasurers should be bonded.

Radical Departure

My Feedback: (13)

As the Sec./Tre. for our club, a chartered AMA club, I would expect to be brought up on charges. A duly appointed officer is just that in any organization, and there's a degree of trust and ethical conduct implied with officer appointments. It would take our club a lot of years to reach the 20K mark.. but I'm not sure that the sum involved is as important as the breach of trust and trashing of fudiciary responsibility. I doubt that many clubs cross check the bank numbers.

tenacious101010

My Feedback: (97)

I have been pondering this question and many that come to mind in such a situation. I know the president of the club is a good guy and am sure the board members are also, BUT, in this position, they have an obligation. They have failed in that in my opinion. The next club meeting, the event is to be discussed. The timing is so odd, the election is to be held the same night. Its safe to assume, the treasurer will not be relected. I just dont see how I could support any of the board members either. I feel they all share in the responsibility.
I as a member and wanting this club to be sucessful, will do all I can to get an accountability system in place. I will also do the same with another RC flying club I belong to. I will vote to press charges and will do what I can to see that he is held accountable. If I see the treasurer, I will do my best to refrain from using my bat again. I am so sick of all the a55holes in the world, and no matter how one looks at it, he is one of them.

Tx_RcFlyer

My Feedback: (7)

Call the cops, let the legal system take care of business if he doesn't offer to return the cash after Johnny Law pays him a visit. It will most likely cost him more inlegal expenses than pay back what was stolen. If the treasurer was able to get away with that kind of cash, I will assume this took placeover a period of time. This would indicate there is a problen with how the club conducts business and perhaps the club officers need to take a long hard look on their accounting practices. Should the club president be held accountable? If Boss Hogg doesn't know what the piglets are doing, then he certainly doesn't need to be the boss.

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

More than one signature to write checks. I figure its not cash?

Also, the first post says "determined to be", if a court determined it "to be", I would start looking to recover the funds and interest from the guys assets, cash, cars, wages ect, (if any).

If the determination was made by a group of guys that just know it was "him", then proof needs to be presented to the thief, then to the court. Unless the thief offers to settle.

Of course this is based on the thief having something to lose. If the thief has nothing to lose, (like most losers) then its going to be hard to get anything back or punish the thief.

Sucks

Steve

c-130RCpilot

In a real world situation it would be wise to contact the police for several reasons:
1. The specter of criminal prosecution has more teeth than does a threat from the club.
2. The police and your local DA will (should) know exactly what evidence to collect to establish a crime.
3. A criminal conviction should help bolster any subsequent civil case.
4. A judge will most likely agree to (in a plea bargain) or decree (after a trial) for restitution as part of any criminal conviction.

An individual club has little to no authority to do any of the above things, and agreeing to have the culprit pay the money back in return for not pressing charges usually ends up with not all of the money being returned. And, as far as I am aware, it's not the decision of the victim to "press charges" it's up to the police and the DA. They may defer to the wishes of the club, but it's up to the police and the DA to decide to make an arrest and pursue criminal charges.

The matter of BOD and Officer culpability is not so clear cut. Did any of the BOD or other officers know about the crime while it was happening? Where any of the BOD or officers accessories to the crime? From what was presented here it seems the answer is no. And another unknown is how much authority the/this club's bylaws gives the BOD and officers -it's not always the same from club to club!

Assuming the treasurer acted alone, the question of the BOD or the officers having any civil liability is probably not fair. First, most club members I've seen give little support to their officers when things need to get done. It's usually a few people (the 80/20 rule) who do all the work and keep the club moving - with little thanks! Everybody else wants to just come to the field and fly. Second, I can tell you it's not easy to rest some nights, knowing that the actions of 50 or so guys could end up with a summons being delivered at your doorstep after some bonehead club member hurts somebody because they violated a rule or acted stupidly - this is the responsibility you put on every club officer's shoulders! Remember, club officers are not paid and they give up their flying time so you can enjoy yours! So, making them responsible for the actions of another is a little hard to justify. And, even if you could prevail in a civil action against the officers or BOD for the actions of the treasurer, would it really be the right thing to do?

Bob Parker

My Feedback: (18)

I`m a member of two AMA charted clubs and we have three signitures on our checks.

oldvet70

My Feedback: (10)

The answer to this question is as varied as the Legal Jurisdictions we live in. In mine if the club is incorporated then anyone who has the authority to spend the clubs funds can be held both criminally and civilly liable. The only reasonable way to proceed here is to call the police, you do not need to be a club officer, you need only have knowledge of the crime, and let your local Criminal Justice System work the problem. Any other approach risks any recovery. Once you offer to let the criminal pay you back the local system will wash its hands of the problem. Well at least in my area that's what will occur.

JKEpps

My Feedback: (1)

I'm a member of a club where something similar happened, however it wasn't the treasurer. It was another member (can't remember if he was an officer) that collected the monies from our monthly club meeting raffle. Since the amounts collected each month was never accounted for, or handed over to the treasurer, we have no way of knowing how much was taken over the course of at least a year. I do know that I contributed $20 myself almost every meeting. So I'll "assume" that there was at least $2000 collected over the year if you include all of the other members that participated in the raffle. Well the president at the time was good friends with the guy. The guy's personal life was falling apart, so he got the sympathy vote from some members. Not me. I wanted him prosecuted, but in the end, I went along. He never returned the money, nor ever made an attempt (as far as I know). He was supposedly banned from the club for life (via a vote by the membership if I remember correctly), but a year later, the president let him back in the club (without a vote, again if my memory serves correct). Again I didn't agree, but I didn't make waves either, so I guess that doesn't make me any better. I dunno. I'd like to think that if I were the president, I'd press charges, but in the end, we would have a hard time proving anything since no record was ever kept. So I suppose there wasn't much we could do anyway. We have since instituted a change in our procedures.

Good luck with whatever happens.

-Jorden