Are kits really dying???
 

I was looking through the latest Tower Talk yesterday and a familiar thought came back in my mind, it's getting harder and harder to find kits to build. I know that we all have complained that ARF's are killing kits for the rest of us. And if you ask the manufacturers they will tell you that they are just responding to market trends. But the thought entered my mind "Are ARF's really killing kits??"

First off, I know that it's no secret that ARF's are big in the hobby today. We all know that as a fact. And they are here to stay. And I have nothing against them at all. I've owned 2 ARF's, Tower Hobbies trainer (inherited from my dad) and the DP Ultimate Bipe. I understand the desire to get in the air quickly, which ARF's fill that need. But I have spent the last few months reading and observing people in the hobby (at flying fields I fly at and here on RCU) and I've noticed a trend that seems very common. It's appears to me that most people who get into flying will start with an ARF and then will maybe buy one or several more. But after they get a several planes they all seem to take up building a kit. This seems natural, after they have planes that they can fly while they build they will start building.

So if this trend is true, why are kits disappearing from the scene?? It would seem to me that they would still be out there just as strong. My opinion is that the manufacturers want kits to die (strictly my opinion with no hard evidence to back it up). I know that most ARF's are produced in countries such as China, and they are produced at VERY low prices. But an ARF in a catalog fetches a very high price. Which to me means big profit for the manufacturer. I'm thinking that kits are being killed by the manufacturer/supplier (a.k.a. Tower Hobbies) instead of being killed by the market.

Should we be doing something about this??? I know that most of us have sat by silently and watched as kit after kit was taken off of the market. Could we as a group let the manufacturers know we want and DEMAND kits (yes, I know that I'm not speaking for everyone. but a lot of us do want kits). Could we reverse this trend?? I would hope so, because I for one enjoy nothing more than spending an evening at the building table.

What does everybody else out there think???? Are kits being put in the grave before their time??? Should we start letting the manufacturers know that we still WANT kits????

Looking forward to hearing other views on this thought.

Ok, I'll climb off of my soapbox now.

Are kits really dying???
 

The only way you will convince mfg'ers that you want kits is to BUY them (kits). It seems alot of people have decided to go the ARF route instead of investing the time to build. To me, building is half of the hobby. I guess this isn't true for everyone.

ARF's
 

RCKen,

I like your post. Truth is that we can Demand all we want, but it is money that talks and as they say, the rest walks. I have seen all the posts about 2nd airplanes too, and most people are starting out with an ARF then looking to build a kit. Reality is that it is the seasoned modelers that are buying mostly ARF's. I look at my club members winter projects, and I'd say it's at least 90% ARF's. Sadly, it is mine too. I've built lots of kits and scratch builds, but it is very hard to find the time. I'd rather fly something I built any day over an ARF, but due to time I have to settle. I just hope there is some kit Manufacturers still out there when I retire.

Are kits really dying???
 

IMHO, I don't think that the current modeling participants are aware of just how tiny the RC aeromodeling market truly is.
With only the number of members the AMA has (170,000) to go on, that leaves approximately and average of 60 members per AMA club. Of course, there are modelers who aren't on AMA's member's list, but the point is that doesn't leave enough potential RC airplane kit building to make a big enough fuss as far as the kit manufacturers are concerned.

Newbies are all but guaranteed that they will most certainly crash, so who in their right mind would spend many hours to build a kit when they are assured they will rekit their pride and joy almost immediately?

Concerning producing kits vs. ARFs, regardless of where they are made or even if ARFs were much more expensive then kits, newbies would opt to purchase ARFs since it will more than likely take them several flying seasons to learn to fly confidently enough to risk the time and effort it takes to build kits. By that time, they may have purchased several ARFs during the flying season (when the need of replacement is more likely) to get back in the air ASAP.

I'm afraid that kits will go the way of the Dodo bird in the not to distant future as flying sites are disappearing much too quickly as a result of urban sprawl. The scary part is that there is nothing really that can be done, if there is, someone should speak now or forever hold their peace. Ironically, all clubs fear the only solution: Overcrowded flight lines more so than the immediate problem the: The eventual decline of our sport.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

labour costs
 

Truth is, people are buying arfs because of the value. Many can be bought at nearly the same price as a similar kit, covering and supplies.The variable here is the cheap labour provided to build the arfs. As these countries continue to take our money (they make almost everything for us. ie at xmas I could only find one toy at walmart (lego) that wasnt made in china) and there economies improve, there labour costs may go up and arfs may not be a great value anymore. I think the price of arfs may go up someday and kits may become popular again.

Save the Kits
 

I am starting a Save the Kits fund. Many of these poor kits have sat for months or years in impoverished hobby shops. Because of the difficulty in finding homes for these kits, fewer and fewer are being brought into the world. It is time for us to Save the Kits .

Send $5, $10, or more and I will spend every penny on the purchase of kits. For $5 you could not purchase a kit, but by combining our resources I will be able to purchase many. As these kits are sold, production will increase, insuring that we will all have kits to enjoy in the future.

Come on, get off that wallet. After all, its for the kits.

Eric

Are kits really dying???
 

depfife,
lol. I'll gladly contribute....... just as long as I get to fly it after it's built!!!!!!

Are kits really dying???
 

Depfife, you need to change your avatar picture to Sally Struthers! Please donate to the

Save the Kits Foundation.

For only pennies a day... :p

Are kits really dying???
 

I just decided to not renew my subscription to Model Airplane News because it has become an ARF catalog. At least Flying Models and Model Aviation still address builders. If you look at a Tower catalog from 10 years ago it is packed with listings of kits and only a few pages for ARFs. Today, the proportions are reversed.

I spent a lot of time last year preparing a major presentation for my club on how to build from plans. My point was that it was just a step beyond building from a kit and you just had to produce your own kit. What I missed was that the idea of assembling a kit was radical for many newer members. I was completely depressed by the report in a magazine recently of an experienced modeler who went to a club to demonstrate how to cover a model. At the end of the presentation he was asked: "where did you BUY that framework"!

Dave Segal

DepFife
 

How about a sponsor a kit program? You know, you could post a picture of the desired kit, someone could send the money for the kit, then as it matures, the kit could send pictures of itself along with a note for more money to continue it's progress!! Maybe, the sponsor could even eventually meet the fully developed kit!! :D :D

Are kits really dying???
 

I've got a better idea!!!

We should all go out and buy any kits left and donate space to house them.

Let me start by offering room for Proctor kits. :D

Start sending them my way today! :cool:

Are kits really dying???
 

I already started that program, I am starting to run out of room...guess I need a bigger room!

I will offer remaining space to scale kits! :D :D

ARF's vs KIT's
 

RCKen
interesting post. I take satifaction out of building an airplane from kit to flight after all in the early days that was the only way to get a plane,.Maybe it's ok to fly an arf, but I still like to build.

I hope we don't have to resort to scratch building, I'm not good at it.

Are kits really dying???
 

Just goes to show how the next generation is being taught. The I want it now and don't want to do anything for it babies. I have about 40 kits now, and will keep buying them. Out of the 50+ planes I have, 1 is an ARF and that is only because they don't make a kit version of it and it is a pretty sweet plane. The ARFs are built so inferior to anything else, they don't hold up to what a kit will. I had to do some major reconstruction to the ARF I bought so it wouldn't come apart with the power I put in it. I hope they don't start dropping kit selections. That is a great part of the hobby. There are some builders out there who are pure artists.

Are kits really dying???
 

About the time I was ready to agree that kit development was heading for extinction, I ordered my first kit from Mountain Models. If every kit maker did what Doug Binder is now doing with his park flyers, you could even talk ARF fans into trying one. It is true that purists might object to the accuracy of his laser cut kits because there isn't any fiddling or fitting of parts, but they are works of art. One doesn't even have to use pins to hold the parts in position. For those who want to work harder at it, there's plenty of room for additional craftsmanship in the assembly and finishing part of the project.

Are kits really dying???
 

As long as there are long cold winters, there will be a need for kits :-)

Jerry

Are kits really dying???
 

The ARF's have impacted the kit market to be sure but
don't loose any sleep over it, their's nothing you can
do to stop or change it.

I feel that at least some kits will always be available for
some time to come. Maybe not the kits we want or in the
selection we once saw,but they will be out there.

Look at the plans that are available, take it from me,
building from plans is much more rewarding than a kitted
plane.

Regards
Roby

Are kits really dying???
 

Hideho all,

First, good topic. Second, may I suggest that you all start collecting kits right now. My buddy Art has 30 something kits in his collection currently, and is always on the lookout for more.

Sadly, I agree that business listen to our wallets the most.
Even though I choose to ARF, there may come a day when I retire that I will want to build, and cannot. I wish I could look foreword several years to see what I'll like to fly....or rather am able to fly...:D

Are kits really dying???
 

I thought it went like this (Sorta)

1 We looked at the sky and wanted to fly
2 We wanted to build flying machines
3 We took sticks and tissue and tried our ideas
4 We started seeing all the wood in a box (early ARF?)
5 We found kits to be the best thing around
6 We found Marketing
7 We found corporations
8 We found profit and loss
9 We have less time and more money to spend
10 We still have a choice to make

Kits are Dying, but the hobby is growing. I am not sure how far off it will be, but kits and ARF's will also be dissapearing. And all You have to do is choose what plane? and go from the store to the field. I think those are called RTF's, More money/ Less time.

For Me, I build mostly because thats a big part of the enjoyment.
Flying was only the reward.

Dan Z

Are Kits Really Dying
 

Think of it like this, if they stop producing kits, and our attics don't burn to the ground then we will make a killing reselling them on E-Bay, (oops I meant RC Universe).

I've been building and flying since about 1982, just a short time in my estimation. About 10 years ago I thought I would try one of them ARFs. Sent off and got me one of those P-51 Sports made by some guy named Bubba. Well when it came I knew who the real Bubba was and also who had the last laugh. I set that thing out on the bench and just looked at for a couple of days, then came to my senses and chunked it in the trash.

Eight years later (two years ago) I saw an ARF I just couldn't resist and went for it, the Goldberg Ultimate. Darn if it didn't look and fly just as good as the one I had built when they first came out around 90 or so. Of course my wife couldn't understand why I bought the ARF when I had another Ultimate Kit in the attic that she had given me for Christmas in 92.

Then a few months after that I tried the SIG Cap 231 ARF. It required a few mods, simple things like gluing a couple of the formers to the fuse sides, but man does it really fly good.

Then this last October I had some free time while I was waiting on Aero-Works to cut and send me my 29% 540 KIT. So, I went up in the attic and yep, I pulled down the GB Ultimate kit. Now the Ole Lady is really confused and she wants to know which I liked best the ARF version or the Kit.

Well when I open the Ultimate kit I had a suprise. Before I had put it in the attic in March of 93 I had ripped the cover off of that months Model Airplane news. It seems some young kid wearing some big round yellow tinted super-fly looking shades was on the cover. Grinning from ear-to-ear he was sitting behind this huge custom built Ultimate. It was covered in of all things pink, white and blue, guess the color scheme made an impression on me since I put it in the box.

So whats the point of this long winded tale. Ten years ago I threw an ARF in the trash, however today I fly ARFs along with the kits that I build. Ten years ago Chip Hyde flew a custom built Ultimate in the TOC, a few months ago he won the TOC with what? An ARF Ultimate.

I guess what I am trying to say is its nice to have a little bit of both worlds.

Things change and some things never will change.

Gary

Oh yea, in all fairness to Bubba, about a year ago I bought one of his 80" Cap 232 ARFs and it flew really great.

Are kits really dying???
 

I know what you mean about the "I want it now" generation. I was in my LHS about 6 months ago picking up parts and the owner was talking to someone who was interested in getting into the hobby. He was showing him an ARF trainer and explained that these were great because they were mostly assembled. He told the guy that you get have it together and ready to fly in about 10-20 hours. They guy immediately replied "20 hours!!!!! I don't have time to spend 20 hours putting this thing together!!!!" That about sums the current feeling up IMHO.

As for the coming demise for kits, I think that I have a plan ready. One of the LHS's that I use has set up a laser cutting operation. I have talked to him and he said that he would have no problems cutting a kit from plans, as long as that kit was out of production and couldn't be ordered from the manufacturer anymore. Can you see where I'm going with this??? Or course you can!!! I'm saving my plans to everything that I build, so if I want another I will just have him cut it. In fact, I think that I have an idea along those lines. I might set up a scanning and plan archive online. People can send in plans to be scanned (out of production planes only) and have the plans placed in the archive. Then everybody could download the plans and take them to be laser cut (or cut themselves if they prefer). I know that the manufacturers will ***** about it, but hey if they don't like it then they can continue kitting the planes themselves and make the money. This may just be the way to keep people with a supply of kits to build.

Anybody else think that would be a good idea??

Are kits really dying???
 

I do not think kits will disappear. I agree that ARFs are becoming more and more prevalent, but that is because they are getting better and better. I think that if the quality of ARFs that we have now were available 30 years ago, modelers in 1973 would have been buying them.

I enjoy building, but I am not particularly skillful, and I am s l o w. If I was out of something to fly, or new to the hobby, I would be looking for an ARF. That does not mean that I will never build another kit. There is a sense of pride and satisfaction in flying a plane that you built.

I am sure that there are folks out there that build from plans or design their own planes that think kit builders are a bunch of I want it now babies.

If you think that current modelers are not willing to build their own - take a look at the SPAD forum. Times change, but as long as there are people wanting to buy kits there will be someone offering them for sale.

Eric

Are kits really dying???
 

I thought I was the only one that noticed the lack of kits. Good to hear others have noticed. I watch the Lead Sleds (ARF) at the field and marvel how something built so crappy can fly. Must be the powerful new engines.
My daughter (a garage sale freak) found a Sig Liberty Sport Biplane kit (60) (1990) like new for 15 bucks. That was my Christmas present. WOW!!
I love to scratch build. I must have built every Comet stick kit ever made; me my razor blade and comet glue. I used to scale up the plans from the Old "Air Trails" mag and scronge balsa and go to work on a free flight. Have several Old Timers. Playboy, Quaker, etc. I noticed that Dremel has discontinued the 4 " table saw (my favorite tool). Goldberg is BACK. Their Falcon and Eagle is some of the best kits ever made. Mine built in 1985 are still flying.
I am finishing up the Hobbico Tiger Moth. Good kit but not one for a beginner to build or fly.
Heck. It is a great feeling when I fly my own built kits or scratch planes. THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT!!!
PS. Balsa USA has some good kits. Remember the FLYBABY 1/3 scale. I flew that monster with a Quad 35. The Pheaton Bipe is a great advanced trainer.

Re: Are kits really dying???
 

I don't think it's likely that many or most folks that buy ARF's move on to build kits. My feeling is that a lot of people just don't have the desire or temperment to build kits. Kit building is actually a pretty hard skill. In a lot of houses, there's only one person who has the skill to replace the light bulbs. What's the chance of someone successfully building a kit?

But I don't think kits will disappear, they just won't be mass marketed. Due to the technology of laser cutting and CAD, it's possible for a very small company (even one person) to produce sophisticated kits pretty economically. Take a look at http://www.checkerboardair.com/cbweb1004.htm for an example of a kit from basically a one-man operation. I'm building this kit:
http://www.ohiomodelplanes.com/ff540p.html , and I would assume Ohio Models is pretty small, since you can write them an email and get response from the designer of the plane.

Are kits really dying???
 

This is just so disrespectful! What put you up on your tower to look down your nose at all the people who just happened to decide to spend their time and money differently than you did? And who do you think taught that next generation?

I don't think human nature has changed at all. In all of history, people who can afford to have someone else do their work, did so. Mass production allows objects to be created less expensively than an individual can do for quantity one. There are almost zero car kits, there are no toaster kits, there almost no furniture kits, there are no longer any electronic kits.

Do you think it's a sign of moral weakness that people cook less, choosing instead to eat at restaurants more? Are people who don't cook their own meals (almost all men on the planet) "babies"? Of course not. They're just relatively wealthy compared to folks in previous generations who couldn't afford to eat out every night.