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Release agents- What's the differance?

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Release agents- What's the differance?

Old 05-16-2008, 07:17 PM
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Default Release agents- What's the differance?

In the past I have always had good results with Partall and PVA film in my molds. Good finish and good release. Now on my trusty CST site I see other release films. Coverall film, safelease 30 of telfon base and Frekote. Has anyone used these products and give a review of their preformance?? How are they applied? Brush on or spray. One coat or more? Etc, etc. Most important why use them over Partall and PVA? Is there something I'm missing I need to know about. Let's get this rolling and start talking about it!
Steve
Old 05-17-2008, 11:09 AM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Well maybe I should start things off.

First of all I am a great believer in new ideas, materials, methods etc,etc. If the foregoing was ignored we would still be living in caves. I do not, though, believe in change purely for change sake.

There is a lot of time, effort and money invested in glass work. Making the plugs, molds and good parts succesfully is not easy. I have used the same resin for many years. It does the job I require. Are there other products out there? Probably, but why change. The same principle applies to release agents. I have been using the same wax and PVA for many years. My parts release from the molds. What more can I ask for? Why would I try another expensive product on a test piece when I do not have to?

My attitude is that all of the composite products I currently use provide me with the propertise I need for the whole project. I see no need to change anything.

Ed S
Old 05-17-2008, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Hi
The same of what Ed said. I have tried ALOT of waxes and keep going back to the old same 1 Johnson Paste wax and PVA. Part All is a brand name for CST it is PVA.
Old 05-17-2008, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Hi

I'm with Ed on this.


But if there is a product out there that I can put down once and get 2 or 3 pulls out with the same quality with no mold damage then I'll change from partall wax/pva system. Cost is also considered.

Steve
Old 05-17-2008, 05:34 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Ed,
I could not agree with you more. I have had nothing but good luck with Partall and PVA. My reason for starting this post was why are their different release agents on the site for sale. I was simply hoping someone had used them and found something wonderful that we all needed to know. Maybe someone will reply later with some new insight.
Steve
Old 06-04-2008, 11:46 AM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Hey guys - I like what Ed said about change for the sake of change (it rings alot of "catch phrase" "keyword" corporate bells) What a pitfall for some nontechnical managers.

Anyway, don't come out shooting at me, but I don't use anything but 100% carnauba paste wax. The same premium paste that I use on my summer car. I can't stand loosing details to PVA, and like Ed said - it's always worked like a charm so why would I spend anymore money? Mould plugs, in the moulds, on the car, on the boat - everywhere.
I have to say though that the first time was because I ran out, otherwise I'd still be spending the bucks.
Old 06-04-2008, 12:00 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

You know - I thought about that for a couple of minutes and thought I'd better qualify a couple of things. I'm a surface finish freik on my plugs usually, and I use a high quality "production-type" tooling epoxy to surface my moulds.
Old 06-04-2008, 02:26 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

If you want to make wings in a mold with graphics, you can not use PVA. My molds are cnc cut from Ren Board. I had to surface the mold with Duratec Polyester Hi-Gloss black coating for a super hi gloss finish.

I tried Dolphin wax, Finish Kare wax and Sky King wax, (sail plane guy) with KlassKote epoxy paint and PPG Concept DCC acrylic urethane paint. I stuck 5 different wings in the mold. Not fun.

I found a company named Alex Composites. They make a product 818 Xtend, a semi-permanent mold release. This product is like water, you wipe it on let it dry and you are ready to go. No wiping off or PVA. They say you only need to use it every 3-5 pulls. I use it for ever wing I make. PPG Concept DCC is the only paint I have found to work with it. KlassKote epoxy will not. DCC is fuel proof . 818 cost about $80 for a gallon which will last a long time. The wings just fall out of the mold when done.

If you want to do it right use aluminum for you molds not Ren Board.
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Old 06-05-2008, 03:15 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

ORIGINAL: Randy Etken

If you want to make wings in a mold with graphics, you can not use PVA. My molds are cnc cut from Ren Board. I had to surface the mold with Duratec Polyester Hi-Gloss black coating for a super hi gloss finish.

I tried Dolphin wax, Finish Kare wax and Sky King wax, (sail plane guy) with KlassKote epoxy paint and PPG Concept DCC acrylic urethane paint. I stuck 5 different wings in the mold. Not fun.

I found a company named Alex Composites. They make a product 818 Xtend, a semi-permanent mold release. This product is like water, you wipe it on let it dry and you are ready to go. No wiping off or PVA. They say you only need to use it every 3-5 pulls. I use it for ever wing I make. PPG Concept DCC is the only paint I have found to work with it. KlassKote epoxy will not. DCC is fuel proof . 818 cost about $80 for a gallon which will last a long time. The wings just fall out of the mold when done.

If you want to do it right use aluminum for you molds not Ren Board.

What kind of resin do you use typically? Ester resins or epoxy?

Where do you purchase the 818 - I looked briefly and couldn't find much.
Old 06-05-2008, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

This is what I found:

http://www.axelplastics.com/products/xtend.php

As far as I know, Randy uses MGS Epoxy.
Old 06-05-2008, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

A little more info here:

I've seen Randy's wings, and he's definately figured something out

http://www.axelplastics.com/pdffolder/comp_pds.pdf
Old 06-05-2008, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

I use Epoxy from MGS or a little cheaper Adtech Pro Buid from Cass mgf. You could buy a gallon of 818 from Composites One in Rock Hill, SC. Or give Axel a call at 1-718-672-8300 and ask for a distributor list.
Randy
Old 06-05-2008, 03:55 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

You're right Dave, the R-200 wings are really turning out well now.. I don't know that I would have kept going thru all the stuck ones he went thru though...
Old 06-06-2008, 04:13 AM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Hi guys

I have been using a product called zyvax, [link]http://www.zyvax.com/home.html[/link] lasts for around 5-8 pulls then its just one coat of slip and your good for another few. It wont fisheye any type of paint, no pva to lift when masking multiple colours, makes thinks much easier. I am using it on aluminium molds bagging uav wings and fuses.

Cheers jared
Old 06-06-2008, 09:35 AM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Reading up on the product data and application instructions, these releases sound strangely similar to "RainX"....hmmmmmmmm.
Old 06-06-2008, 10:31 AM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

You can bet I'll be trying some RainX.
Old 06-06-2008, 12:34 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Just a couple of comments on my part. I always use PVA on a new mold for the first few layup. Certainly the first one. For one it protects a green mold until it gets seasoned. For another, it protects the mold if there is an area where releasing may be a problem due to tight drafts, etc. (PVA is a barrier coating like some of the other release mechanisms that prevents the layup from having any contact with the mold.)

When it comes to trying out new materials, I find it useful to do a practice layup on a piece of laminate (Formica, etc.) It's fast and easy. And it gives me a chance to 'practice' with the new stuff before trying it in the real world.

FWIW
Old 06-06-2008, 01:24 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Scraper what Zyvax product are you using? What type of paint do you use?
Old 06-09-2008, 05:36 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?


ORIGINAL: Randy Etken

Scraper what Zyvax product are you using? What type of paint do you use?
First the molds are cleaned with the surface cleaner and the water clean, then 2 coats of the sealer GP finally 3 coats of the slip 4. The amount of realease can be changed by using a different slip number.

After 5 or so pulls its just a case of wiping over a coat of slip and its ready to use. I am using both 2k and lacquer paints.

Cheers jared
Old 06-20-2008, 11:48 AM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Personnaly, I use PVA in the past and now I use ONLY Freekote. It's a little bit expensive but I have the same pint since 4 years !! You need to buy 3 product :
The Cleaner, the Sealer and finnaly the release agent. Clean the mold with the cleaner, wipe with the sealer and wait 1 day. Wipe 5 coats of the Relase agent (2 hours between each coat). And you are now ready to make at least 50 parts without to put anything else ! Remove the parts, clean with air, make another parts ! The parts are a lot more easy to release than with PVA and you save a lot of time ! If you want to make less than 10 parts with your mold, stay with PVA, but if you want to make more, go for Freekote, you will love it !!
Old 06-20-2008, 12:06 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

...certainly sounds like a great productivity booster [sm=thumbs_up.gif]
Old 06-29-2008, 04:04 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

ORIGINAL: Slow Low

You can bet I'll be trying some RainX.
Don't bother - doesn't work! (using epoxy and vacuum bagging over a polyester gelcoat mold). I can delaminate the fiber layers easier than removing the layer from the mold...I was using an old deformed mold that wasn't worth anything for a test.

For that matter, I'm still really having a hard time getting regular wax to release from the mold. 7 Layers of McGuire's mold release wax and I damaged the part trying to remove it...it really didn't want to let go and it's left a light fabric pattern in the mold (it may be removable but again, an old mold I didn't care about). How many of you are vacuum bagging and using wax as a release successfully? It's back to PVA for me until I can acquire a small quantity of some of the permanent mold releases to try (I hate to invest $80 without knowing it will work with vacuum bagging).
Old 06-30-2008, 01:18 PM
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Default RE: Release agents- What's the differance?

Jake,

If I only use one color of paint in the mold I can get away with wax only. If I try to use stencils, or tape off in a wax only mold I tend to get stickage... I think part of my issue is the paint I use (klasskote). This is on two molds, a wing, and a V-tail. No tough corners or pockets for things to stick.

I use Dolphin Wax and like it.

http://www.hmracinginc.com/racing.php

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