Avro Arrow's Restoration started!
12-02-2008, 05:58 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
3rd and last layer of 4oz fiberglass went on this morning, i layed up a larger size cloth over then whole area and then cut it larger by 1-1/4" on all sides so this layer can cover one whole section as one piece.
I have to say that after a year of sitting my Aeropoxy resin is actually working a lot better and more active then when i initially started to use it last year, i don't know why but it's curing really well now.
Now that glass is fully cured and rock solid, i went on inside with thin sharp cutting knife and started to cut the foam plug out in sections/chunks!, now only bit of on the sides are left on the engine tubs sections and most is still attached to forward section.
Once all the foam is carved out, i will leave very thin layer of foam on the repaired area and then glass it over from inside towards the end.
I have to say that after a year of sitting my Aeropoxy resin is actually working a lot better and more active then when i initially started to use it last year, i don't know why but it's curing really well now.
Now that glass is fully cured and rock solid, i went on inside with thin sharp cutting knife and started to cut the foam plug out in sections/chunks!, now only bit of on the sides are left on the engine tubs sections and most is still attached to forward section.
Once all the foam is carved out, i will leave very thin layer of foam on the repaired area and then glass it over from inside towards the end.
12-02-2008, 06:15 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Next step:
Once i have carved out all unneeded foam from the plug by just leaving 1/8" layer i will mix up resin with milled fibers as a thick paste and apply to all areas where gap filling is needed, area around the top sides of the nozzles will need most as gap there are like 3/32" to 1/8" deep between old fuselage and newer section. Paste will be applied in light to medium layers.
Once i have carved out all unneeded foam from the plug by just leaving 1/8" layer i will mix up resin with milled fibers as a thick paste and apply to all areas where gap filling is needed, area around the top sides of the nozzles will need most as gap there are like 3/32" to 1/8" deep between old fuselage and newer section. Paste will be applied in light to medium layers.
12-03-2008, 04:59 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Took a bit of diversion on here.
Couldn't sleep so thought better to keep on going with this project.
I mixed up some more resin and added layering on both top sides of the of the new fuselage section with 6oz cloth this time. I am trying to use more cloth to fill up gap then to use too much milled fiber paste but it seems as filler paste is the way to over come these gaps. Here are pictures of both sides.
I had to do same patch adding on the forward section also as older fuselage's curve going into center section is bit higher then new section made, rest will do with paste also.
Couldn't sleep so thought better to keep on going with this project.
I mixed up some more resin and added layering on both top sides of the of the new fuselage section with 6oz cloth this time. I am trying to use more cloth to fill up gap then to use too much milled fiber paste but it seems as filler paste is the way to over come these gaps. Here are pictures of both sides.
I had to do same patch adding on the forward section also as older fuselage's curve going into center section is bit higher then new section made, rest will do with paste also.
12-04-2008, 03:01 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Putty/Paste mix applied.
Well i don't know if it all went well on my application or not as this is the first time i have used this stuff. After i mixed my resin thoroughly i added 5 spoons of milled fibers in it, mixed it well then added 4 more spoons of milled fibers in it to get that thick paste like consistency.
Once i was satisfied with paste mix, i applied it on the left side of the fuselage where most gap filling was needed. Initially it went on but some did come off as it wasn't sticking, then it finally started to stick as i pressed the applicator against the working surface bit harder. When all is applied i looked at the surface and could easily see all sorts of moon like craters being formed. This i am not sure why it happened but it did.
I kept on going all over other areas also and carters would and wouldn't form. Now its all waiting to cure up.
I am posting these pictures of my after application, please let me know where and what i did wrong so when i do another mix, i don't make same mistake/s again.
Sam
Well i don't know if it all went well on my application or not as this is the first time i have used this stuff. After i mixed my resin thoroughly i added 5 spoons of milled fibers in it, mixed it well then added 4 more spoons of milled fibers in it to get that thick paste like consistency.
Once i was satisfied with paste mix, i applied it on the left side of the fuselage where most gap filling was needed. Initially it went on but some did come off as it wasn't sticking, then it finally started to stick as i pressed the applicator against the working surface bit harder. When all is applied i looked at the surface and could easily see all sorts of moon like craters being formed. This i am not sure why it happened but it did.
I kept on going all over other areas also and carters would and wouldn't form. Now its all waiting to cure up.
I am posting these pictures of my after application, please let me know where and what i did wrong so when i do another mix, i don't make same mistake/s again.
Sam
12-04-2008, 04:38 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
2nd try...
This time i added less milled fibers in the resin mix and stared the mixture in two way, first as regular circular mix and then vertical mix. Once all the fibers were completely mixed into fine textured paste i applied this on other side.
Now instead of using old credit card as applicator i used my flat mixing stick to liberally apply the paste equally like peanut butter all over the affected areas (Low areas). This time consistency of the mix was bit on lighter side somewhat creamy vs thick paste on the first try...
Have a look yourself...
This time i added less milled fibers in the resin mix and stared the mixture in two way, first as regular circular mix and then vertical mix. Once all the fibers were completely mixed into fine textured paste i applied this on other side.
Now instead of using old credit card as applicator i used my flat mixing stick to liberally apply the paste equally like peanut butter all over the affected areas (Low areas). This time consistency of the mix was bit on lighter side somewhat creamy vs thick paste on the first try...
Have a look yourself...
12-05-2008, 05:03 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
It's been 24hrs now and 2nd application of paste is still bit on tacky side, i was hoping it would have be fully cured by now but seems as either my resin mix was slightly off or room temperature is on bit colder side then normal. (Actually i do feel coldishhh)
Started to do test sanding on the area from first paste application and i have to say it requires lots of elbow grease and sand paper!. With in first 15-25 minutes i had already gummed up 1 full paper of 80 grit wet and dry!. They say these resins don't wax or would clog up paper with wax well, you be the judge now.....
1- pix
You can see how both sides of the humps are starting to curve and take the right shape. (First application.)
2-pix
Left side, actually its good that those craters did formed, now i know what low spots to fill. Still more sanding to do. Man i should get a small hand sander!!!
3-pix
Both Inward curves slowly taking shape. Looking from back to the front of the airplane.
4-pix
Judge it yourself, there are 2 more of these that i already binned...
Started to do test sanding on the area from first paste application and i have to say it requires lots of elbow grease and sand paper!. With in first 15-25 minutes i had already gummed up 1 full paper of 80 grit wet and dry!. They say these resins don't wax or would clog up paper with wax well, you be the judge now.....
1- pix
You can see how both sides of the humps are starting to curve and take the right shape. (First application.)
2-pix
Left side, actually its good that those craters did formed, now i know what low spots to fill. Still more sanding to do. Man i should get a small hand sander!!!
3-pix
Both Inward curves slowly taking shape. Looking from back to the front of the airplane.
4-pix
Judge it yourself, there are 2 more of these that i already binned...
12-05-2008, 07:11 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Applied paste mixture to right side little while ago, now i made more of this mixture paste and applied on top to inward curve of both humps. This way form the side shots you can see how fuselage's original missing curve is being reestablished now.
At this point i really like to say thanks to all guys on this thread who have advised me with different techniques and ways to do this restoration of this missing section and i do want to exclusively say thanks to my friend Mike Emili his time to show his support once again on here. Mike also advised and sold me this milled fibers or if it wasn't for his advice i would have used fumed Selica which would he so hard to sand compare to this stuff. Thanks Mike for you help and support and i have to say that you have a heart of gold my friend.
Btw that drawing in the background is of DC4 with a actual pax side window from Millard's DC4...
At this point i really like to say thanks to all guys on this thread who have advised me with different techniques and ways to do this restoration of this missing section and i do want to exclusively say thanks to my friend Mike Emili his time to show his support once again on here. Mike also advised and sold me this milled fibers or if it wasn't for his advice i would have used fumed Selica which would he so hard to sand compare to this stuff. Thanks Mike for you help and support and i have to say that you have a heart of gold my friend.
Btw that drawing in the background is of DC4 with a actual pax side window from Millard's DC4...
12-05-2008, 07:52 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Since i will be spending most of the winter working on Arrow and S Connie, i want to do some changes to my Arrow compared to other 5 turbined version that Mike is presently building.
My Arrow would be replicating RL-204 the 4th one of the line. It will be done in interim scheme which will have almost full red day-gol on it except for the main fin!, plus Arrow 203 and 204 had different burner cans also referred as exhaust nozzles. Both of those Arrows had longer nozzles with flared out ends!. I will be making another foam plug that will attach on the present nozzles at about half of the length, this way i will be able to fabricate newer longer nozzles on top of original ones..
I am also posting a group picture of all the volunteers who worked on different areas of museum's Arrow including myself over 8 years time span to build 1:1 scale metal replica of RL-203 permanently housed at Toronto Aerospace Museum here in Toronto, Ontario. Look at the left of this picture the chief designer of Arrow his highness and excellency Mr. Jim Floyd and Museum's CEO Claude Sherwood were also present on the roll out ceremonies of the replica in October of 2006...
My Arrow would be replicating RL-204 the 4th one of the line. It will be done in interim scheme which will have almost full red day-gol on it except for the main fin!, plus Arrow 203 and 204 had different burner cans also referred as exhaust nozzles. Both of those Arrows had longer nozzles with flared out ends!. I will be making another foam plug that will attach on the present nozzles at about half of the length, this way i will be able to fabricate newer longer nozzles on top of original ones..
I am also posting a group picture of all the volunteers who worked on different areas of museum's Arrow including myself over 8 years time span to build 1:1 scale metal replica of RL-203 permanently housed at Toronto Aerospace Museum here in Toronto, Ontario. Look at the left of this picture the chief designer of Arrow his highness and excellency Mr. Jim Floyd and Museum's CEO Claude Sherwood were also present on the roll out ceremonies of the replica in October of 2006...
12-06-2008, 06:35 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Body work Started...
I have started to do body work on this model now, its multiple process of each thing i do. Add more paste/putty to all areas that need more filler once it fully cures then i wet and dry sand or dry and wet sand the resin filler to get the curve shape that is needed. So needless to say its the body work that is full of filling, , , sanding, , , filling, , , sanding on and on until i don't get the nice smooth curve surface!
More pictures of the process.
Oh Mike i did mixed both fumed silica and milled fibers together as 50/50 mix in the resin and yes application was a lot consistent and smooth.
I have started to do body work on this model now, its multiple process of each thing i do. Add more paste/putty to all areas that need more filler once it fully cures then i wet and dry sand or dry and wet sand the resin filler to get the curve shape that is needed. So needless to say its the body work that is full of filling, , , sanding, , , filling, , , sanding on and on until i don't get the nice smooth curve surface!
More pictures of the process.
Oh Mike i did mixed both fumed silica and milled fibers together as 50/50 mix in the resin and yes application was a lot consistent and smooth.
12-07-2008, 08:48 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Here comes another putty mixture application.
Looks that i may have to apply another putty application as its looking almost all filled now but we will see.
I am posting couple of pictures from same angle, one with flash to see the dept of application and other to see freshly applied putty glaze.
Most of this was applied on right engine compartment hump as it looks left since model is sitting inverted on the work island.
Looks that i may have to apply another putty application as its looking almost all filled now but we will see.
I am posting couple of pictures from same angle, one with flash to see the dept of application and other to see freshly applied putty glaze.
Most of this was applied on right engine compartment hump as it looks left since model is sitting inverted on the work island.
12-08-2008, 12:38 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
As you have found, milled fibers do not make the best filler material for fairing a surface. A thick mixture using milled glass fibers tends to be "clumpy" - full of "globs". Phenolic micro-balloons or glass micro-ballons are the best filler - they thicken very evenly without globing. They sand very easily too.
Fumed silica mixtures are VERY difficult to sand.
Fumed silica mixtures are VERY difficult to sand.
12-08-2008, 02:13 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
ORIGINAL: TeamSeacats
As you have found, milled fibers do not make the best filler material for fairing a surface. A thick mixture using milled glass fibers tends to be "clumpy" - full of "globs". Phenolic micro-balloons or glass micro-ballons are the best filler - they thicken very evenly without globing. They sand very easily too.
Fumed silica mixtures are VERY difficult to sand.
As you have found, milled fibers do not make the best filler material for fairing a surface. A thick mixture using milled glass fibers tends to be "clumpy" - full of "globs". Phenolic micro-balloons or glass micro-ballons are the best filler - they thicken very evenly without globing. They sand very easily too.
Fumed silica mixtures are VERY difficult to sand.
On my next project i will use your proposed materials and see the difference....
12-09-2008, 10:45 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Today's Update:
Sanding, , , ,Sanding, , , Sanding, , , Sanding all the way.
Man one really have to love to sand as this seems to be never ending process. he he he
I am thinking on going back to the spackle route once again for rest of the filling needed. The reason being i have more then enough structure and structural strength already built into this then needed so why give myself long waits to fully cure and hard to sand surface to work with. I have used spackle of my S Connie in past on top of similar application and it worked well.
All i would have to be careful with etched/engraved panel lines on this area but i am not planning to go that far with this model as then i will have to do whole model and don't know if it's worth it or not at this point.
Happy Eid Mubarik to all on here and HO HO HO Merry Christmas also...
Today's pictures including one from Connie filling job also...
Sanding, , , ,Sanding, , , Sanding, , , Sanding all the way.
Man one really have to love to sand as this seems to be never ending process. he he he
I am thinking on going back to the spackle route once again for rest of the filling needed. The reason being i have more then enough structure and structural strength already built into this then needed so why give myself long waits to fully cure and hard to sand surface to work with. I have used spackle of my S Connie in past on top of similar application and it worked well.
All i would have to be careful with etched/engraved panel lines on this area but i am not planning to go that far with this model as then i will have to do whole model and don't know if it's worth it or not at this point.
Happy Eid Mubarik to all on here and HO HO HO Merry Christmas also...
Today's pictures including one from Connie filling job also...
12-10-2008, 01:05 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
These were taken yesterday evening, as you can see lots of sanding is going on and lots have been done already. Few low spots are emerging with is good as all i will do is to fill them with spackle afterwards and then prime this area.
12-14-2008, 10:39 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
Tomorrow seems to be the warm spell on us weather wise, they are calling for +9 degrees or even double digits so want to take advantage of it by taking the Arrow out sides if it's not windy and then giving it a good wash to get of all the sanding dust that is sitting in all the low spots.
Then i will finish this 1st phase with application of speckling and then doing final sanding once it's all dried up.
Then i will finish this 1st phase with application of speckling and then doing final sanding once it's all dried up.
12-15-2008, 09:34 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
So much for Mr.Weather, it was cold and very windy whole day today, as a matter of fact its pretty windy right now also outside...
Here comes the final phase of the 1st part of the restoration process on this Arrow. I have applied first medium to light layer of spackle to the right engine compartment hump section, will be doing same for the whole area.
Here comes the final phase of the 1st part of the restoration process on this Arrow. I have applied first medium to light layer of spackle to the right engine compartment hump section, will be doing same for the whole area.
12-16-2008, 09:18 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
looking great Sammy.... when is the connie goin to be done? once the avro is all done send me 1 good pic and i'll throw it on the website. keep up the great work
cheers
Andy
safe and happy holidays to all.
cheers
Andy
safe and happy holidays to all.
12-16-2008, 09:27 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
HEY ANDY!!!!,
Thanks man, it's been labor of love man. Great to see ya on here man!, how it's going....
Here is latest on Connie: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_45...page_30/tm.htm
Sure soon as Arrow is restored for presentation, i will send ya and couple other sites pixs of it.....
So what's on ur table now days??...
Thanks man, it's been labor of love man. Great to see ya on here man!, how it's going....
Here is latest on Connie: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_45...page_30/tm.htm
Sure soon as Arrow is restored for presentation, i will send ya and couple other sites pixs of it.....
So what's on ur table now days??...
12-16-2008, 10:14 AM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
on my table is a agusta 109a. well the nose part is anyways..lol still waiting on te other piece to show up. once thats here i'll begin dtailing and such.
12-16-2008, 01:58 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
ORIGINAL: NITRO_VEEDRIVER
on my table is a agusta 109a. well the nose part is anyways..lol still waiting on te other piece to show up. once thats here i'll begin dtailing and such.
on my table is a agusta 109a. well the nose part is anyways..lol still waiting on te other piece to show up. once thats here i'll begin dtailing and such.
Well i'm just about there now....
12-16-2008, 03:46 PM
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RE: Best possible route to rebuild this fuselage section on Arrow
****** 1st Phase DONE******
I am very happy to let all on here know that i have completed 1st phase of this restoration. I am very happy with the results so far and i hope results will same for other 2 or 3 phases of this restoration. All is now left is prime and paint, i will get try to get white epoxy primer and spray it soon as we get a warmer day and lots of sun light.
To close this phase and thread i would like to once again say thanks to all who participated in this thread and helped make this phase successful. Your advices were very helpful and i gained more knowledge how to do these kinds of jobs in future. Thanks you all and God bless you.
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and advance happy new 2009 to you all.
I am very happy to let all on here know that i have completed 1st phase of this restoration. I am very happy with the results so far and i hope results will same for other 2 or 3 phases of this restoration. All is now left is prime and paint, i will get try to get white epoxy primer and spray it soon as we get a warmer day and lots of sun light.
To close this phase and thread i would like to once again say thanks to all who participated in this thread and helped make this phase successful. Your advices were very helpful and i gained more knowledge how to do these kinds of jobs in future. Thanks you all and God bless you.
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and advance happy new 2009 to you all.
