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First Control Line Airplane, need some help

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First Control Line Airplane, need some help

Old 05-27-2015, 04:10 PM
  #1  
mfulls
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Default First Control Line Airplane, need some help

Hey everyone. I'm new here. I bought an old control line airplane at an estate sale not too long ago. I am giving it to my nephew for his birthday next weekend. I was just going to give it to him to hang in his room, but because my brother in law and nephew love airplanes, the more I researched what I had purchased, I have decided to see if I can get it flying before I give it to him.

I have no idea what I have, so I have attached some pictures. Here is what I do know. The engine is a Fox 35. The wire that attaches to the glow plug is soldered to the metal tubes that stick out the side of the engine. I am assuming those are used to fill the tank with fuel. The fuel line did make a u-bend to connect the two metal tubes, and had the two plastic (what I assume to be) check valves in it.

Now some questions:

I have seen a video where someone attaches a battery to the glow plug to start the engine, which I assume is what the wire there is for. What confuses me is why it is soldered to the metal tube. Since the engine is actually covered by a wood housing, would I attache the battery to the metal tubes? Seems iffy to me with there being fuel in there, but what do I know? Also, if that is the case, where would you connect the second lead of the battery to?

Also, the plane is the only thing I have, would this kit get me the rest of what I need, assuming the engine is good?
http://brodak.com/fuel/1-2a-control-line-flite-pak.html


If anyone can fill in any gaps I have left out, like what kind of plane this is, hold old it is, etc..? I would appreciate it. Sorry for the hasty post, trying to run a quick errand, but I would appreciate any and all help to get this thing off the ground.

Thanks.
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Old 05-27-2015, 05:48 PM
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grotto2
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NUMBER ONE, I think you need some good local help or you're going to crash this plane or even worse, get hurt. Try to call a local hobby shop and see if they can hook you up with an expert in the area. They can also help you get the gear you need to run it. It is NOT a 1/2A plane and the link you refer to does not have an adequate handle and lines for this airplane. You need sixty foot .018 or .015 lines and a full sized handle. The engine will need ten to 15 percent nitro fuel with castor lubrication, a pump or fuel bulb to fill the tank and a glow battery for the plug.

You are correct about start procedure you saw in the video, but I can't make out the plumbing for the tank. I suspect the builder originally had a cowl over the engine and attempted to make remote connections for the plug using brass fuel tubing. Again, you really need local help.

Good luck with your endeavor. You're in for a lot of fun.

-Ron

Last edited by grotto2; 05-27-2015 at 06:17 PM.
Old 05-27-2015, 07:02 PM
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mfulls
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The Hobby Shop near my house didn't really have much to offer when I called them. I am sure there is someone around here, but what I hear you saying is that this is not a beginner's toy. Would you mind explaining what a 1/2A plane is, and how it compares to what I have? If I am not going to fly this, I at least want to be able to tell my brother in law what it is. His dad is a pilot and he is in the aviation industry, so he might want to take on this challenge one day. They made it look easy in the video, but maybe it isn't as simple as it looked.

Could you tell me what kind of fuel to buy, and where I can get it from? Or where to get the correct size cable and handle? Thanks.
Old 05-27-2015, 07:46 PM
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grotto2
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1/2A implies an engine size of .049, a fraction of the size of what you have. The lines for one are lightweight dacron (I've used dental floss in a pinch) so you get the idea of size. A half-A plane might have a one foot wingspan or so.
Brodak is a great supplier, as is Tower. These are the types of items you need:
Fuel: http://brodak.com/fuel-qt-10-nitro-29-castor.html
Fuel bulb: http://brodak.com/sullivan-fuel-bulb-pump-2-oz.html
Glow starter: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJ800&P=7
Handle:http://brodak.com/control-line-parts...ngergrips.html
Line: http://brodak.com/control-line-parts...ia-x-2-60.html
Connectors: http://brodak.com/control-line-conne...35-and-up.html

Where are you located? Maybe someone in this forum is close enough to help.
Old 05-27-2015, 07:55 PM
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mfulls
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I am in Dallas. I am sure there is an entire culture of people that fly these around here. I am just not much of a "hobby" guy. I like the really big toys, so I don't even know where to start with something like this. I do appreciate all of the info.

Would you say the 1/2A is more of the beginner size? Would trying to fly this be a terrible idea for a beginner?
Old 05-27-2015, 08:14 PM
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grotto2
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My experience with 1/2A is that they don't fly nearly as well as a .19 or .35 sized plane.
Sig (see Brodak) has a nice beginner plane called a Skyray and it happens to come in both sizes.
What you have is not the perfect beginner plane, but it can be mastered if you can get past the first couple of critical learning flights.
Dallas should have plenty of C/L fliers. Why not try and post to this forum and see if you get a response: http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php
Old 05-28-2015, 05:17 AM
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mfulls
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I will check it out. Thanks for all of the information. My nephew and brother in law live in San Antonio, so I think at this point I think I am just going to leave it up to them to get going, but I am going to pass all of this information along to them. Maybe they will want to get the ball rolling this week so when we get down there, they can try mess with it.
Old 05-28-2015, 07:24 AM
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Bob Jablonski
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I concure with the a bit bigger then 1/2A if you live in a windy area. Another good area in the Jr Ringmaster and Sig Acromaster size plane.A little smaller a little cheaper and can handle a bit of wind. But if you live in a area that has calm air in the mornings there is nothing wrong with a 1/2 A plane. That is what I learned to fly with (along with probably a million others). you can get the plane and motor for well under $100.00
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:32 AM
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Jersy Hank
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O/K m/fulls NO.! you have a topflite nobler there it has a fox 35 stunt engine in it. Great flying airplane, BUT not a beginner plane!!!! See if you can find a flite streek trainer, very good for a starter plane. Needs a 19 or 15 size engine. 52 foot lines .But you REALY need a c/l flyer or you will just smash them up. There are a lot of c/l guys in Texas, go to modelaircraft.org look for clubs in your area, most want new blood in there clubs. They will teach the boy how to fly. Also get a boy into model airplanes and he will never have money for drugs. good luck Hank
Old 05-28-2015, 08:55 AM
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I'd bet the farm that the internals of the tank are long since trashed , age is not kind to fuel systems especially if not used .
Is there anyway you can get the tank out and show it to someone locally ?
All the advise to seek a bit of help would be well taken and will give both you and your nephew a much better experience .
Old 05-28-2015, 02:58 PM
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BrightGarden
 
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Default How hard could it be?

It might be fun to just get that engine started. I'm thinking you need the thrill of this challenge, if I read you right.

First, does the prop turn?
If not or if it is really hard to turn, do you have a heat gun?
You have to cook that engine a bit without burning the plane - just be careful where you point the heat gun.
Heat the head and venturi area. You are remelting the castor oil, mostly. You might even see some kind of boiling a little on the metal.
The old fuel has castor oil in it which congeals and actually acts as a preservative coating to a certain degree.
Heat the engine up like it was running and the castor melts and frees up.
Use Marvel Mystery Oil freely. Turn the needle valve out carefully and clean with a cloth as the castor starts getting fluid.
Don't lose any parts.

Next, you have to get a glow engine driver that powers the glow head.
Cheap, picture below. Get some 10% nitro fuel from your local hobby shop LHS. You're in a good area, Texas is cheapest in the US, because it is formulated there, i think. Maybe $20'ish for a gallon.
Get some new tubing - just like your old tubing. LHS has it.
You should get a little squirt bottle to fill with fuel and then fill the tank. Also used to prime the engine thru the venturi. I would get an inline fuel filter to place in the line from your tank to your engine, to keep old crud out.
First, swish some fuel in the tank and drain. A few times. See if the fuel is ok looking when you empty. Avoid this entire problem by just getting a 2oz fuel tank from your LHS. They're beginning to like you, by now. You may be their favorite customer, already.

Go home and charge your new driver and remove the glow plug from the engine. Connect the driver to the glow plug. Does it turn the filament red? Either way you should probably buy a glow head from your LHS, they're liking you even more, now.

Put the glow head back in the engine.
Go outside and secure your airplane well. On a table where you can work on it.
Check to make sure the neighbors are out shopping.
Tighten your prop nut down well on the prop. You should have bought an extra prop, a modern one, at your LHS.
I assume all the other little bolts, nuts, and screws of the plane have been checked - are tight.
Put some fuel in your new fuel tank, just a bit, like a fifth full.
Turn the needle in all the way, gently.
Ease it out (open it) about 2 turns.
Turn the prop over while holding your finger over the venturi to draw fuel up the line.

Connect the glo plug driver.
You should be very excited at this point.
Give a teansy squirt of fuel from your squirt bottle in the venturi to prime the engine.
With the plane tethered securely to the table (just a reminder, safety first. And second, and third.), hold the plane's snout with your left hand, and using a chicken stick (the handle of one of your wife's wooden spoon works great) flip the prop counterclockwise. Reverse procedure if you are left handed.

You should at least get a pop out of the engine within a few flips. You might even get a BRRRRAAAAACCCCCCKKKKK!
As the engine burns off the prime(s), open the needle about 1/4 of a turn. Eventually you get the right setting and the engine will continue to spin.
You have to listen to tell whether it is whining like a banshee - very lean - or sputtering and "four stroking" which is really where you should be.

I know you just want to go out and try to run that engine. I think this is the minimal setup to do to get a burp from the engine.

Oh, and now, wipe the whole thing down with Windex and paper towel. Welcome to the world of castor oil.

You will have either loved this experience, or hated it.
Total cost - maybe $50-$60.

If you are still on-board - Next steps before actually flying:
Do what everyone else said and get an expendable 1/2A .049 engine-powered job, fly-crash-fix repeat a few times, and then get a .15-.19 powered job without flaps (which your Nobler has) and then the next day you should be ready to fly your Nobler.

How hard could it be?

Cheers,
Let us know how it goes.
Poughkeepsie Pete.


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Last edited by BrightGarden; 05-28-2015 at 03:00 PM.
Old 05-29-2015, 10:05 PM
  #12  
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Mfulls,

Pete gave you a very good outline!

A few other thoughts that will save you some grief, and possibly some harm...

Remember the engine is inverted. It will probably be trickier to start if you're not experienced. It is easy to flood in that position, and won't start while flooded. Wet fuel in the cylinder cools the glow plug, keeps it from glowing as required. Worse, if the 'top' of the cylinder is full of fuel and you try to force it to turn over, you can break something, possibly including a finger...


The plug wire connected to a fuel vent tube suggests to me that the guy who flew it used an alligator clip from one side of the battery to attach to the brass tube, and an alligator clip from the battery's other side to complete the circuit by attaching it to a metal part of the engine, most likely the exhaust port. That way, he wouldn't have to turn the model upside down to connect the battery to the plug for starting.

The Fox 35 is 'old technology' but still very useful in a model like this. Today's engines can live with less oil in the fuel, and a large part of the oil - if not all of it - as synthetic oil like Mobil One for cars. (No, we don't use Mobil One, but that is a synthetic that works in cars. We have special synthetic oils.)

Fox 35s do best on fuel with a higher percentage of oil, and all - or most - of it castor oil. Such fuels are not easy to find these days. Castor oil comes out in the exhaust and gets all over everything near it. The black goo on the outside of your Fox 35 is baked on castor oil residue. Fuels for 'modern technology' RC engines leave very little oil in the exhaust; cleanup is simpler. That's important to many who fly RC... Your Nobler is clean and doesn't show repairs. It has been well maintained - including scrupulous cleanups. The castor residue on the engine shows it was flown a lot.

There definitely are many great guys flying control line in the Dallas area. You should be able to connect with them as soon as weather conditions permit. I'm in southern Arizona, and we hear a lot about Dallas and Houston at the moment. I hope all is well for you and yours, and for the guys I hope you get to meet soon.

CL fliers make good friends, and appreciate their friends. We have to, to get our models launched. Unless your arms are about 60' long. if they are, you don't even need the flying lines. (BTW, for a model like yours, flying lines should be about 60' long, of braided stainless steel cable about 15 thousandths of an inch diameter... The fliers you'll meet can help you see what's involved.) It's been my hobby for over 65 years, and I like Control Line best of all the different ways to fly models.

Last edited by Lou Crane; 05-29-2015 at 10:06 PM. Reason: misspelling
Old 05-30-2015, 06:42 PM
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downunder
 
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No one seems to have mentioned that the model you've got is a Nobler which was designed (although a ling time ago) as a competition aerobatic (stunt) model. That means it can turn very fast doing things like square loops but because it's built to be light it means it's also quite fragile. If you give it to your nephew then I'd suggest he hang it up on a wall for the time being and with luck it might persuade him to get a more suitable model to learn to fly with. There are several simple models he could choose that can use the Fox engine. With all that said, if he could hook up with someone used to flying that kind of model then they should be able to teach him to learn to fly the Nobler reasonably safely.
Old 05-31-2015, 01:42 AM
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Jersy Hank
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I think you are thinking of a r/c type tank, with flexable tubes. This is likely a VECO or Perfect tank with brass tubes. Just clean it out with a little fuel, it will be fine.
Old 06-03-2015, 07:25 AM
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pm sent
Old 06-10-2015, 08:59 AM
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jayseas
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX2N1az4Jd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_dN09qLcg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa2CyNmrG1k

Last edited by jayseas; 06-10-2015 at 09:03 AM.
Old 06-10-2015, 11:02 AM
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grotto2
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jayseas-

I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind, but I happen to have an ARF Top-Flite Nobler.
I'd certainly place the chance of success for the tyro with a Nobler as far greater than that of a beginner with an L.M. Cox POS plastic toy. IMHO, even if he only makes a couple of laps with the Nobler it may trigger a life-long love of modeling.

I'm curious as to how the OP has made out with his find. We haven't heard from him in a while.
Old 06-10-2015, 03:11 PM
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jayseas
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Originally Posted by grotto2 View Post
jayseas-

I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind, but I happen to have an ARF Top-Flite Nobler.
I'd certainly place the chance of success for the tyro with a Nobler as far greater than that of a beginner with an L.M. Cox POS plastic toy. IMHO, even if he only makes a couple of laps with the Nobler it may trigger a life-long love of modeling.

I'm curious as to how the OP has made out with his find. We haven't heard from him in a while.
I was just trying to give him a look.
Old 06-23-2015, 02:09 PM
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tlrascal
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The airplane you have was designed by a Texas native who passed away a few years ago. He was
George M. Aldrich and you have a Nobler. This is a valuable and highly sought after airplane. You would have no trouble selling it for $100+. I is not a beginner airplane but if you let an expert fly it you will be amazed.
Old 06-23-2015, 07:24 PM
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Tom Nied
 
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To me it looks like a
Top Flite Gieseke Nobler
Old 06-29-2015, 05:25 PM
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scott17
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I'm local and have everything you need to fly that plane. I also have many planes that you could learn to fly with. That plane is a Nobler, designed by Aldrich originally, but the version you have is a bit later alteration by Bob Geiseke who lived in Irving Tx. and passed away not too long ago. It is a very capable design and I fly 2 of them myself. Hit me up if you want to fly it or restore it.
Old 06-29-2015, 07:21 PM
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jayseas
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Originally Posted by scott17 View Post
I'm local and have everything you need to fly that plane. I also have many planes that you could learn to fly with. That plane is a Nobler, designed by Aldrich originally, but the version you have is a bit later alteration by Bob Geiseke who lived in Irving Tx. and passed away not too long ago. It is a very capable design and I fly 2 of them myself. Hit me up if you want to fly it or restore it.
I have to say you are quite the guy to offer that out.My hat is off to you.
Old 07-01-2015, 04:58 AM
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mikeainia
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Originally Posted by jayseas View Post
I have to say you are quite the guy to offer that out.My hat is off to you.
I would agree with that. Unfortunately, the OP will probably never see it. He (mfulls) joined RCU the day of the original question, posted 3 more times, the last being the next day and hasn't been back since. No doubt, he did as he said and gave the plane to his relatives and passed on what advice he had at the time. Hopefully someone who happens in here can use some of the advice instead.
Old 08-28-2015, 09:43 AM
  #24  
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The best place to get c/l equipment ie Brodak Mfg. Put it in on your serch engine and it will cum up. You will also find him very helpful .

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