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Classic stunter Ares help

Old 10-03-2007, 03:19 PM
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Default Classic stunter Ares help

I am looking for information/ building tips for the Ares. But there is a twist. I love the lines of the Ares and want to make the fuse a little longer and R/C it. A friend at work told me you have to be very careful building the plane so you don't build a twist into it because of the "I-Beam" frame. I understand, but is the plane that difficult to build??? Building anything, you want it straight and true, that should go without saying. But how hard is this plane to build?? I am looking at getting the Brodak 59 Ares. Any help would be appreciated.
Old 10-03-2007, 04:28 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

I build the I-beams 99% "in the air" and they've all come out very straight. If the center section is put together straight initially and the wood isn't warped, the rest aligns easily. TE/LE tapers/curves can be held to shape with little temporary scraps in critical spots while the rib strips are being fitted.

If the center is twisted at all in the beginning, you'll have to fight it all the way.
Old 10-03-2007, 07:24 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

Over,

The idea for building an I-Beam wing is to use the building board and fuselage to keep things aligned. If you can find one, take a look at some of the many designs Jack Sheeks published, mostly in Flying Models mag, 25 or 30 years ago.

He 'jigged' the wing true with 'sacrificial' tip ribs. These are cut to the length needed, and have holes for the spar, LE and TE strips. The sacrificial ribs are the same height as the basic fuselage side sheet's top and bottom edges. The LE, TE and spars centerline is parallel to the fuse top and bottom edges. So, on a flat building board, the fuselage is the center jig, and the sacrificial ribs jig the tips correctly. It's still a good idea to brace the LE and TE while dropping the strip ribs in...

You get one side (top or bottom) built, then flip it over - still jigged to the flat board - and finish the other. The outline of the tip ribs, drawn on the template ribs, is cut away to the final rib shape after the wing structure is otherwise complete.

The only nuisance might be getting the covering to stick to the usually fairly narrow first ribs outboard of the fuse sides... I-Beam wings gain a lot of strength from the covering, but are basically good and strong. Not necessarily as light as you'd expect, but there's nothing like the look of all those ribs rippling under the surface!
Old 10-04-2007, 09:05 AM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

ORIGINAL: over the edge
I am looking for information/ building tips for the Ares. But there is a twist. I love the lines of the Ares and want to make the fuse a little longer and R/C it. A friend at work told me you have to be very careful building the plane so you don't build a twist into it because of the "I-Beam" frame. I understand, but is the plane that difficult to build??? Building anything, you want it straight and true, that should go without saying. But how hard is this plane to build?? I am looking at getting the Brodak 59 Ares. Any help would be appreciated.
If you really want to SEE how to build I-beam wings, consider getting Bob Hunt's video "How to Build I Beam Wings - with Bill Werwage". Bill Werwage designed the Ares.

George
Old 10-04-2007, 11:06 AM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

An I-beamer is one of the simplest wings to build. Set it up with the fuselage and tip rib plates as templates. Shim up, or down, any bends in the leading or trailing edges. I cut a 1/2 in wide stip of bond paper and glue to the rib next to the fuselage to give more sticking area for the covering. I also double cover out about 3 ribs and triple cover between the first and second ribs. Gives more strength where needed and allows for handling without damage.
Old 10-04-2007, 12:25 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

Thanks for the info. But I just thought of something; how do I make the fuse longer? I want to stretch it about 3 inches to get more stability for R/C flight. I have picked up some good information with my other post in "Questions and Answers" under converting control line to R/C. Check out that post and see what you think. Am I nuts, or is this really not a bad idea??
Old 10-04-2007, 04:23 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

I don't know whether you need to have a longer fuselage. CL stunt ariplanes balance between 15% and 25% MAC, more forward than usual for RC airplanes, I think. If it was me doing it, being pretty ignorant of RC, I would simply put the CG more forward and go fly. Best way to extend the fuselage is to build a new one rather than making extenders for the shorter one.
Old 10-04-2007, 04:55 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

There are a few problems in picking the Ares as an R/C ship, beautiful as it is it has some truly limiting factors. The I beam goes through the fuse and there is no way around it. A take apart is not an option. The wing platform is not readily adaptable to having servos put in, even though there is a lot of dead space there are no readily available attachment points. The fuse is very narrow and getting a tank in that the average R/Cr feels comfortable with in not an option. The width is not favorable to conventional servo mounting and receiver and battery placement is going to have to be well forward. Finally this plane was never designed to be built heavy. For C/L it should weigh no more then 36 oz ready to fly. Granted R/C has some latitude it still wont help your wing loading to get too heavy. Finally it has been mentioned that you cannot use plastic film to cover the wing and stab as the wing design gets a substantial amount of it's rigidity from the covering which means that it can't flex. Your going to have to use a cloth or tissue and dope finish to achieve this. Generally conversions of C/L planes are more work then you really want to do and factory rehashes of fameous designs don't work either. Remember the T/F R/C Nobler a heavy, bloated monstrosity that really bore little resembalance to the origional and flew well below average expectations.
Old 10-04-2007, 06:13 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

ORIGINAL: dennis
The I beam goes through the fuse and there is no way around it. A take apart is not an option.
Sheet the center section. Like this. Two 1/4" balsa center ribs, sandwiched with 1/32" ply to handle the loads. The center is sheeted first with 1/32" ply, then again laminated with 1/16" balsa. The ply sandwich ribs and thin ply/balsa laminated sheeting make for a very strong center section that will transfer loads well from the I-beam to anything else.

Hardwood nylon screw mount blocks at the I-beam and TE would be easy to add to this kind of center section adaptation. This wing is for a C/L profile Avenger, but the center section mod scheme would work fine for an R/C plane.


Old 10-04-2007, 07:27 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

There is no magic to locating the CG range for any airplane, no matter what it did or is going to do. The CG location is a function of certain things that are easy to deal with. No magic at all. The aeronautics industry has a couple of formulas they've proven to work without a shadow of doubt. The same ones work for big planes, little planes, RC planes and all. Unbiased and unprejudiced. And infallable. And you can make use of them without breaking a sweat.

Get out a yardstick and plan on doing about 2 minutes of measuring. Go to http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/cg_super_calc.htm and look at the 9 measurements they want. Then plug them in and click the button. Oh yeah, you need to tell the application to do a 10% static margin and you record where it says the CG would be for that. Then you change the 10% to 20% and click the button again. The 10% tells you the rearmost CG location in the safe range, and the 20% tells the forward most location in the safe range.

It's so easy to do it's almost a joke.
It's so accurate it's amazing so few people know about it.

BTW, anything else is just mumbojumbo. The airplane's pitch stability is affected by what those measurements locate and define. No less and no more.
Old 10-06-2007, 01:40 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

Over,

Another thought that a quick skim of the thread didn't pop up to me...

ARES flaps are consideraby larger than usual ailerons on RC models. To keep the "look" of the ARES, you could probably glue on the inner 60% of the flap, each side, and rig the outer 40% as aileron. If you want full span ailerons, glue on the flap and move your aileron hinge line aft to where it is more like usual RC practice.

Also, most CL stunt models of that era had a longer left wing panel. On an RC, you will not need that!

As to space for RC-specific equipment: an I-beam wing without a bellcrank taking up space in the fuselage has a lot of room for RX, batteries, and (small?) servos, even as narrow as the ARES is. Of course, you can lengthen and widen the fuse to fit, and if you're careful, still preserve the "look." And if you fly over grass, you may want to think about those super-zoomie wheel pants, too.

Luck, the plane IS a beauty!
Old 09-15-2011, 10:51 AM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

Did anyone build an RC I-Beam from this discussion? I greatly admire the Argus, Ares and similar models. The Nobler, except for the I-Beam wing is a very comparative control line stunter and had been converted to a plan for RC many years ago. It was given a nose gear, but the Nobler never did have those beautiful forward reaching streamlined wing mounted wheel pants that add to the appearance of the classic I-Beam designs. For RC the full span flaps of the Nobler were split into flaps slaved to the elevator and ailerons as normal for RC. The flaps mixed with the elevator as stated in the article, prevent tip stalling. The RC Nobler reads to fly great. I am building a Nobler now and a couple I-Beam models. Ambroid Kit Ares from 1962. Bill Werage sold his design to Ambroid but it ended up a good looking bit of voodoo compared to the secrets Bill was hiding. I had cut these kits right before Bill revealed and released the plans for the champion '59 Ares. I will build it too.

Here's a good looking CL airframe in cream. The "Tucker" that captures a lot of what the Ares types have. 55 inch span. The blue and white is an Ares and the Nobler in clear mono.

This is History more than news at this point but I think there is Robins View production of the Ares construction itself with Bill Werage narating. There is a seperate I-Beam construction video. I have them both here but haven't watched recently. Worth having and using for me. I never built an I-Beam before.



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Old 09-15-2011, 07:20 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

I still have an Ares kit I got for Christmas 1965. Never built it.
Old 09-15-2011, 07:27 PM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

I once built an [link=http://www.holdfastmac.com.au/kenny1.html]RC model[/link] for my son based on my CL stunter with the only real change being I made the fuselage much wider to accept the engine he was going to use. I also made the fuselage a little cartoonish just for fun . I kept the tailplane/elevator exactly as per the stunter and slightly enlarged the flaps which of course became the ailerons. Even with the control surfaces being massively larger than the RC norm it was dead easy to fly, even for me on low rates .
Old 09-16-2011, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: Classic stunter Ares help

Build the thing without the "I" beam and that will leave you room for RC stuff.

Tube in a tube for wing assembly isn't all that difficult.

In fact, you can have a tube that sticks in a couple of square openings and it'll be just fine.

My second Aries wing, I believe I was 12 or 13, possible a bit older, I tossed out all the "I" beam stuff. I made a "I" beam out of soft .25 balsa.

In fact, I forgot I had this wing until this Thread. Thanks for that! I dug it up and now I see, I even changed the wing tips and the setback on the leading edge. Did all this at age 12, well, maybe 13, or possibly a bit older but not much.

I'm now going to use the wing for my new CL design. Well, not that new, it has been on paper for over a year. "The International."

So, thanks for your Thread and keep in mind, you don't have to hurry your building process.

I think an RC Aries would be great. With or without the lengthened fuselage.

BTY. You could just place the wing a bit forward.

Charles





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