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Hi guys, need opinion

Old 09-02-2008, 09:30 PM
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Default Hi guys, need opinion

Yea I know yall are Very opinion'afied.
Here goes. I have a Sig Staggerwing that my daughter is attempting to fly. We have had good luck with our Skyray 1/2A but the Staggerwing is giving us fits. One question, should I use the wire leads that come in the kit to attach the lines to or should I use something like braided fishing line (spiderwire) to attach the control horn to the control wires? It would be simple enough to tie the line to the horn instead of using the wire and I ask because we broke one of the wires.
I don't have a lot of experience flying in general but I am darn good with engines. That is a Norvel .061 on the front. We might be going back to the "Bee", it depends.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:46 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

The wire is the best choice for sure. The Spiderwire makes for pretty good line material so long as it is the really light stuff. Another thing about the Spiderwire is that it does not handle knots very well. It weakens the line tremendously so if you use it at all make sure you do a pull test on it before each and every flight.

The norvel may prove far too much for this plane. Only for the skilled flier. This engine is more powerful than a TeeDee by Cox. I don't hink this plane was designed for more than the traditional reedy engines.
The Tank location is iffy at best for good engine runs. You don't want it so far away and on top of that the engine will have even more trouble with its location so far to the outside of the circle. Might do fine on the ground but once airborn... If you feel you must use this engine at least use the tank in the mount.

A balloon tank mounted on the fuse just above the bellcrank would be ok.

Robert
Old 09-03-2008, 08:41 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

Hi Jeff -

The staggerwing will never fly as well as the 1/2A Skyray, but I do remember that it was pretty nose-heavy even with a golden bee on it. It must be REAL nose-heavy with that Norvel. I'd recommend going "back to the Bee". Have to agree that that tank location looks pretty far outboard of the engine - that is a long way uphill for the fuel to climb. If you stick with the Norvel, you will get plenty of run-time from the Norvel tank/mount and the engine will not go lean once airborne.

Good luck to you and your daughter

Mike A.
Mid-Iowa Control Liners
Old 09-03-2008, 12:27 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

The Norvel was just kind of a "what the hell lets try this thing". And the mount ended up completely different. (made it from scratch) . I never got a flight out of it due to fuel starvation and I am not familiar with balloon tanks at all. I think I could have made it work eventually but I have enough screaming Bees around here the we can use one .
I don't know if you ever saw the Skyray/Zero. I modified our Skyray to look like a Zero, even got it's photo taken by Sig. My kid loves it. I think the cowl has saved the engine several times from my daughters less than stellar landings.
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:50 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

jeffie8696,

Make sure the pickup on the NORVEL tank is in the correct place for CL...mine was setup for RC with pickup on bottom. I had to pull out the tubing, bend it, and reinstall it in the correct place. It works fine that way.

Lose the spinner. That is WAY too much weight up front.

If you still want to use that external tank, glue some standoffs on the fuselage so the tank will clear the bellcrank and mount on the side of the fuselage. In that case you may also want to use an RC radial engine mount to move the engine back some.

I'm guessing that you made that venturi for better fuel draw. Nice.

What size prop is that? The NORVEL .061 normally likes a 6x2 or 5.7x3 APC prop. It needs to rev to maintanin venturi velocity. Perhaps not with your venturi.

Of course, as someone mentioned above, switching to a Bee type engine is easier, and maintains a power range more suited to that plane.

Lots of choices. Good luck whichever way you go.



Old 09-04-2008, 10:00 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

Actually the first photo was just a mockup. I did not use the Norvel tank mount . I use a self made beam style mount that moved the engine back to almost touching the firewall.
The .061 is completely unmodified, it was originally a car engine but it has been adapted for air use. Bought it at Sheldons. Actually I got several. LOL.
This engine was a hard starter so that was the reason for the spinner. It has been replaced by one of it's stablemates that has proven to be a real easy flip starter so the spinner is gone now.
The fuel tank is a work in progress, I am still learning about tank position etc. I think the biggest problem was our crosswinds , we need a lot of line pull to compensate and the Staggerwing was not cutting it. The Zero has a lot of engine offset to work well. Still I think the Norvel .061 is just TOO much engine . I am working on getting an .049 Norvel. But I think one of my better Bees will work OK.
Old 09-04-2008, 02:51 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

Well, I guess we fixed a lot of non-problems.

George
Old 09-04-2008, 07:28 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

My first question was about using Spiderwire to attach the bellcrank to the leads for the control lines instead of the factory piano wire and that was quickly answered[8D]. The rest is just us having fun.
Old 09-04-2008, 09:14 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

You bet friend. Fun is where it's at.

All in all the Norvell might be fun to try but don't expect the airplane to fly in a fun manner. I encourage experimentation but often when such a project gets brought up, the lack of experience by some of the newer hobbyists can get their dreams dashed in a hurry leaving them with dashed dreams and a bad taste in their mouth regarding flying at all.

Another problem with this Norvell installed the way it was is that the nose moment of the plane has been lengthened severley beyond the planes original design. Also the CG can be drastically altered by such an arrangement.
If you were to seriously consider using the Norvell you would want to alter the nose length so that the propeller winds up close to where it is with the Baby Bee installed. A quarter to half an inch further forward would probably be OK but more than that could make the flying characteristics of the plane undesireable hence less fun in the long run.
This could cause clenching of teeth and other parts of the body!
Also consider small fuel loads for intial flights so that if indeed there were the undesireable clenching, you would not have to endure it for long.

Remember have fun but let us know how things go when you start experimenting!

Robert
Old 09-04-2008, 09:30 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

My revised mount has the Norvel almost touching the firewall. But I still feel this is just going to be too much for this plane. [&:]
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:19 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

jeffie,

That Big Mig .061 has probably twice the HP of a Babe Bee engine, so she's going to have faster lap times.

Also, when it's flying, the fuel draw will drop dramatically. You still might want to bring that tank closer to the fuselage. To check this, start it up and hold the outside wing down.

George
Old 09-05-2008, 11:33 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

I think I will be saving this engine for something a little bigger , I am almost delusional enough to think I can scratch build a profile plane . (Almost).
I have the parts. The wood cost is minimal and I can print out the profile of anything to any scale on my printer. Might be a little crude at first try.

Update. A good friend of mine has profiled a nice ME 109 for me. All I have to do is take it to the printer and have it made to scale. then I cut it out and glue it together. The .061 is going to be very happy. I hope it flies well.
Old 09-10-2008, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

I am real happy to read your posts. I think what you are doing is great and it reminds me of the way it used to be. Lots of experimentation, let's try this, I can make that myselfgood attitude. I am also happy that you have your daughter involved as it think modelling is one of the greatest character builders there is. I have known two young ladies that were into control line, one a long long time ago and one fairly recently and they are Dawn Cosmillo and Crystal King. What a span ther as one would be probably 65 now and the other about 20. Please keep up the good work.
Old 09-10-2008, 02:14 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

Thank You. I appreciate your words. I think I am doing a good job with my kid. She is a very accomplished young lady. Her list of achievments is rather embarrasing. (to her because Dad won't shut up about it.)
Old 09-11-2008, 12:30 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

I must be out of my mind but I am actually going to try and scratch build an ME 109 scaled to fit the NorVel .061. [&:] Parts are cheap enough. And I have extra hardware. And I am going to keep it very simple.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:23 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

Hey jeffie! What about this to help?

The first pic of course is the plan.
The second shows one of the foam wing panels this plane was designed to use.
The third shows the packaging.

You not having the wing panels can still enjoy this plan because it shows the airfoil at the root. This one was designed to stunt.


Robert
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Old 09-12-2008, 08:38 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

Sweet kit.
I am patterning my build after the SIg Skyray 1/2A kits that I have . The profile of the fuselage is really the only major change. [8D]
Old 09-12-2008, 08:45 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

jeffie,

The NORVEL (Big Mig or AME) .061 has much more power than the Golden Bee (shown on box) or the Black Widow reedies used for the Skyray. You might want to blow it up a little or use longer lines. Good luck with it.

George
Old 09-13-2008, 12:09 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

We added 4 inches to the fuse (over the Skyray) and will be adding a little wing area too. That and some really long lines should make her very happy.
Old 09-13-2008, 08:11 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

I must be out of my mind but I am actually going to try and scratch build an ME 109 scaled to fit the NorVel .061. Parts are cheap enough. And I have extra hardware. And I am going to keep it very simple.
Here's something I designed and scratch-built myself, and flew for the first time the other day. Not quite an ME109, but in a similar vein and also powered by a Norvel 061. 150 sq.in and 9 oz - slightly heavier than I would've liked, but the wing-mounted landing gear adds a bit. In any event it doesn't matter, as it flies great and is very stuntable. I flew it on 46' lines, although about 40' is probably the optimum.

You'll notice the unconventional engine mounting. Unfortunately there wasn't room for both the 1.25 oz tank and the engine on the right side of the model, so this was the result (didn't want the CG further forward so wasn't prepared to extend the nose). I was expecting it to lean out once it picked up speed, given the considerable distance the fuel has to be drawn inboard, but this wasn't a problem and the thing ran fine (for a while!) anywhere in the hemisphere and in any manoeuvre I could think of. It still isn't quite right though, as the motor quit abruptly with the model directly overhead in a wingover, still with plenty of fuel remaining. With me unable to regain line tension, the model basically went in vertically! Fortunately the damage was only minor. I assume that the culprit was some sort of fuel feed problem (a bit mysterious since plenty of previous wingovers were OK), so I'll get hold of a shorter tank and mount the engine on the outboard side to see if that helps.
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Old 09-13-2008, 10:45 AM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

Steve, what size prop are you using. You may have starved it.

NORVELs need to rev in order to maintain venturi velocity (for suction). Perhaps running pressure to the tank may help.

Nice ship!

George
Old 09-13-2008, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

Do you feel the 3 bladed prop is allowing the engine to rev enough to maintain proper fuel draw? Can't blame you, I LOVE 3 blade props!! Then again if the muffler has a pressure fitting or Could have one I would use it. Another solution I have seen used but I am not sure gets much discussion is pointing the fuel tank vent hose into the prop wash and allowing it to pressurize the tank. I have had some success with this method. [8D]
Old 09-13-2008, 04:57 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

The 3-blade prop was for the photo only, as it was a 6x4 and IMHO too big for the motor (I've since cut it down to 5x4, but haven't run it yet). I flew it with its usual 2-blade 6x3, with which it turns over 20000.

I'll definitely look at using muffler pressure with the new tank.
Old 09-13-2008, 05:07 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

heck I think that should be plenty of rpms ! I myself use 6X3 props on my daughters Baby Bee with no trouble. How heavy is this thing? [X(]
Old 09-13-2008, 07:09 PM
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Default RE: Hi guys, need opinion

How heavy is this thing?
About 250g / 9oz - it makes for the nicest 1/2A model I've flown, as long as the engine doesn't stop at a surprising time...

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