Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
#51
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Shawn, If half of what you have stated is true you have a good case.Remain calm document everything provide a timeline, simplifiy and stick to the facts.
It doesnt matter if your plane was constructed poorly or the radio was not working properly whatever. These guys owe you a plane any court will rule with you on this.
Remember when you go to court remain calm, present your case in a clear concise manner and you will be flying soon enough. good luck.
These guys have some nerve to think they can get away with this. Later
It doesnt matter if your plane was constructed poorly or the radio was not working properly whatever. These guys owe you a plane any court will rule with you on this.
Remember when you go to court remain calm, present your case in a clear concise manner and you will be flying soon enough. good luck.
These guys have some nerve to think they can get away with this. Later
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Sounds to me like this club has a "good ole boy" system in place.
In otherwords the established members can do no wrong.
I THINK kitman is just trying to stick up for this group regardless of the facts.
Of course the post is so broken that I had trouble understanding it, so who knows.
In otherwords the established members can do no wrong.
I THINK kitman is just trying to stick up for this group regardless of the facts.
Of course the post is so broken that I had trouble understanding it, so who knows.
#53
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
WHOOOOAAA there nellie....
After seeing a few hints and knowing what club this is now, I can say that the fellas I have met from there have all been good fellows. Friendly and responsible.
I do not know the involved individuals specifically however and cannot vouch for them. It is fair to say however that MOST clubs would stand up for their members because they are mostly private clubs... meaning that "RC riff-raff" are generally booted out. Noone wants undesirable people in their club... especially thoughtless, selfish people. Having met several guys from the "club in question" I seriously doubt they would keep such individuals in membership.
To say a club as a whole is one way or another is not right. The club in question is perhaps one of the most active clubs in Ohio. Home of a nationally recognized jet event. I have visited there a couple times and it's kept immaculately. I would definitely, based on the people I've met there, join if it were closer than 45 minutes to me.
This isn't a club issue, but really a private issue between the two parties that has been "aired" on the internet. The "accused" have no reason to appear here, and if the defendant wished to persue legal matters he should.
I don't know the particulars. I DO know that if the guys flew a plane without permission they should take care of it, but if they felt they had permission, then whose to blame?
Earlier I stated that I cannot believe that ANYONE would approve test flights of their baby without their presence, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I don't know, and neither does anyone but the 2 parties involved. It either happened one way or another and I'm in no position to Judge. But they should either work it out on the side or go to court.
But let's not bash a club or it's members over an accusation.
After seeing a few hints and knowing what club this is now, I can say that the fellas I have met from there have all been good fellows. Friendly and responsible.
I do not know the involved individuals specifically however and cannot vouch for them. It is fair to say however that MOST clubs would stand up for their members because they are mostly private clubs... meaning that "RC riff-raff" are generally booted out. Noone wants undesirable people in their club... especially thoughtless, selfish people. Having met several guys from the "club in question" I seriously doubt they would keep such individuals in membership.
To say a club as a whole is one way or another is not right. The club in question is perhaps one of the most active clubs in Ohio. Home of a nationally recognized jet event. I have visited there a couple times and it's kept immaculately. I would definitely, based on the people I've met there, join if it were closer than 45 minutes to me.
This isn't a club issue, but really a private issue between the two parties that has been "aired" on the internet. The "accused" have no reason to appear here, and if the defendant wished to persue legal matters he should.
I don't know the particulars. I DO know that if the guys flew a plane without permission they should take care of it, but if they felt they had permission, then whose to blame?
Earlier I stated that I cannot believe that ANYONE would approve test flights of their baby without their presence, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I don't know, and neither does anyone but the 2 parties involved. It either happened one way or another and I'm in no position to Judge. But they should either work it out on the side or go to court.
But let's not bash a club or it's members over an accusation.
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
If the two guys fly the plane without the owners permission, they are responsible for bringing it back to earth in one piece.
When those guys taxied it out they would have known full well that if they crashed it due to mechanical or human error it was their responsibilty at the end of the day.
If they try to act all innocent saying that it was the plane's fault, they are just trying to get away with not having to pay for a new one.
Its just like a teacher responsible for his pupils- if one jumps off a cliff during a field trip, it doesnt matter if the teacher pushed them or not, they are held liable for it.
When those guys taxied it out they would have known full well that if they crashed it due to mechanical or human error it was their responsibilty at the end of the day.
If they try to act all innocent saying that it was the plane's fault, they are just trying to get away with not having to pay for a new one.
Its just like a teacher responsible for his pupils- if one jumps off a cliff during a field trip, it doesnt matter if the teacher pushed them or not, they are held liable for it.
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
I think beyond any shadow of any doubt we ALL agree that if the plane was flown without permission the flyer assumes all responsibility.
This point has been belabored... the issue is that the owner says they didn't have permission, the flyer(s) say they did.
I'm not saying Shawn is not telling the truth... I'm just saying that we don't KNOW who is right or wrong... either it can be debated by them privately or taken to a judge to decide.
I don't know either party, so I can't say one is "right" and the other is a shmuck... just because one came online and told his side of the story and the other doesn't access RCU or chooses not to respond publicly.
But this thread has gone on long enough to potentially be slanderous to a club that isn't involved in this... this isn't about the club but a dispute between 2 or 3 individuals.
As I said before, I find it hard to believe that anyone would allow their baby to be test flown without thier presence.... but I also find it JUST as hard to believe that anyone WOULD fly another's plane without permission.
I say let Shawn do what thinks he must and let's move on...
This point has been belabored... the issue is that the owner says they didn't have permission, the flyer(s) say they did.
I'm not saying Shawn is not telling the truth... I'm just saying that we don't KNOW who is right or wrong... either it can be debated by them privately or taken to a judge to decide.
I don't know either party, so I can't say one is "right" and the other is a shmuck... just because one came online and told his side of the story and the other doesn't access RCU or chooses not to respond publicly.
But this thread has gone on long enough to potentially be slanderous to a club that isn't involved in this... this isn't about the club but a dispute between 2 or 3 individuals.
As I said before, I find it hard to believe that anyone would allow their baby to be test flown without thier presence.... but I also find it JUST as hard to believe that anyone WOULD fly another's plane without permission.
I say let Shawn do what thinks he must and let's move on...
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Hello,
I just wanted to say a few things that I think of this whole situation.
Being a experienced flier, and builder myself lets look at this from another point of view shall we!
Lets say a Citation goes down in Flordia, when the NTSB goes out and investagates the accident, they look for a black box, and try to locate the probable cause of the accident. If they found that the accident was caused by a squat malfunction in the rear landing gear hatch, they would go after the maker/designer of the part. Would the NTSB go after the pilot of the aircraft and try to blame him for the accident, no. If who ever was flying the plane at the time gave it a control input and it did not respond to anything, why should it be his fault? It might possiably be his fault for flying it without the owner presence, but if the pilot of the aircraft did everything in his power to save the aircraft why should he be responsable for something he had no control over? If you were flying one of your new planes and suddenly the plane locked up, and you had no control over what happend, would you blame yourself? The way I half to look at this particular incadent is if you can't put the blame on what happened in the airplane exactly, than you can not put the blame on the pilot. He had no control of what happened.
Like I said this is just one mans opinion, and look at my views of the whole situation as you like!
Da. Man
I just wanted to say a few things that I think of this whole situation.
Being a experienced flier, and builder myself lets look at this from another point of view shall we!
Lets say a Citation goes down in Flordia, when the NTSB goes out and investagates the accident, they look for a black box, and try to locate the probable cause of the accident. If they found that the accident was caused by a squat malfunction in the rear landing gear hatch, they would go after the maker/designer of the part. Would the NTSB go after the pilot of the aircraft and try to blame him for the accident, no. If who ever was flying the plane at the time gave it a control input and it did not respond to anything, why should it be his fault? It might possiably be his fault for flying it without the owner presence, but if the pilot of the aircraft did everything in his power to save the aircraft why should he be responsable for something he had no control over? If you were flying one of your new planes and suddenly the plane locked up, and you had no control over what happend, would you blame yourself? The way I half to look at this particular incadent is if you can't put the blame on what happened in the airplane exactly, than you can not put the blame on the pilot. He had no control of what happened.
Like I said this is just one mans opinion, and look at my views of the whole situation as you like!
Da. Man
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Gentlemen:
Let’s pay attention to details here.
First of all I am totally convinced that Shawn did not give anybody permissions to fly this airplane. Why? Because he is CRAZY (sorry Shawn) and he is/was IN LOVE with this plane (you can see this from his postings)!!! Because of this could you imagine Shawn NOT to be present at the field for the first flight of his “baby†if he was asked to be there? I would not just come there, but bring the camera and camcorder!!!
Now, to the “prosâ€, who took the liberty of flying this bird (and I guess they are “members of the club†– shame on Dave B.P. for even bringing this up. Why does this matter?). Anyway, if these guys decided to fly the plane isn’t it theirs responsibility to prepare it properly – you know, simple thing, like making sure that batteries are charged overnight, all controls are working, etc… And if “pro†Chuck actually built this plane isn’t he known that it is “underpowered†battery-wise? Or he should have at least “prime†new battery pack to make sure it has reached full capacity.
Because of all this I think Shawn is a victim here and two “tailspin buddies†[] should somehow make it up to him! Dave B.P. may club also can offer something (just to be nice)?
P.S. Shawn. I feel sorry for your loss. It was a beautiful bird. Just don’t give up and you will be flying one like this one day.
Let’s pay attention to details here.
First of all I am totally convinced that Shawn did not give anybody permissions to fly this airplane. Why? Because he is CRAZY (sorry Shawn) and he is/was IN LOVE with this plane (you can see this from his postings)!!! Because of this could you imagine Shawn NOT to be present at the field for the first flight of his “baby†if he was asked to be there? I would not just come there, but bring the camera and camcorder!!!
Now, to the “prosâ€, who took the liberty of flying this bird (and I guess they are “members of the club†– shame on Dave B.P. for even bringing this up. Why does this matter?). Anyway, if these guys decided to fly the plane isn’t it theirs responsibility to prepare it properly – you know, simple thing, like making sure that batteries are charged overnight, all controls are working, etc… And if “pro†Chuck actually built this plane isn’t he known that it is “underpowered†battery-wise? Or he should have at least “prime†new battery pack to make sure it has reached full capacity.
Because of all this I think Shawn is a victim here and two “tailspin buddies†[] should somehow make it up to him! Dave B.P. may club also can offer something (just to be nice)?
P.S. Shawn. I feel sorry for your loss. It was a beautiful bird. Just don’t give up and you will be flying one like this one day.
#58
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That's a funny analogy about the Citation crash, but I have been involved with enough crash investigations to tell you that regardless of what physically caused the aircraft to crash, the pilot 99% of the time shares the blame. If there was something wrong with the plane, the PIC should have known about it etc. The idea that the ntsb and faa don't blame the pilot when the conditions were out of his control is absurd. As far as this Pitts is concerned, probably everyone shares some blame. Why would the owner leave such a small battery in the plane? (ASSuming that contributed to the crash, 8 servos in a plane that big on a 600MaH pack? What?) And did he mention the battery size to anyone? Why wouldn't someone involved in building not know the capacity and condition of the batteries, especially if they were even considering a test flight? Why would mr. expert pilot test fly such an expensive project without knowing exactly what was installed, how it was working, and whether or not he had explicit permission from the owner. Ultimately all those things may be "contributing factors" BUT, the buck stops with the pilot. IMHO the guy at the sticks is responsible for ensuring that he has an airworthy plane. Sometimes you need to show judgment before skills. I'm interested to see how it all turns out.
#59
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Shaun,
I see you point, and think you have a valid argument. Did you at any time since you have been flying your trainer join or attempt to joint his or any club? Not that it has anything to do with this matter, but if you were a member of the club you might have a better insight to how this worked and exactly who these guys were. If he sold you a radio that did not work and had already stung you for assembling the ARF, you might have gotten wind of this had you been associated with his fellow club members. Having been a modeler for over 17 years, I can say I get calls all the time from guys who want me to build or assemble a plane for them, test fly it, or help them set it up, but yet they never join the club or contribute to it in any way.
I think you are right that this guy wanted to fly your plane to see how his was gonna fly. It was probably a spur of the moment decision that they regret, and should pay for. I would give the club a chance however, don't judge the whole bunch by the actions of a couple.
Tommy
I see you point, and think you have a valid argument. Did you at any time since you have been flying your trainer join or attempt to joint his or any club? Not that it has anything to do with this matter, but if you were a member of the club you might have a better insight to how this worked and exactly who these guys were. If he sold you a radio that did not work and had already stung you for assembling the ARF, you might have gotten wind of this had you been associated with his fellow club members. Having been a modeler for over 17 years, I can say I get calls all the time from guys who want me to build or assemble a plane for them, test fly it, or help them set it up, but yet they never join the club or contribute to it in any way.
I think you are right that this guy wanted to fly your plane to see how his was gonna fly. It was probably a spur of the moment decision that they regret, and should pay for. I would give the club a chance however, don't judge the whole bunch by the actions of a couple.
Tommy
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
ORIGINAL: Combat Addict
I don't believe the battery could go dead at 5.9 volts. After a night of chargeing the highest I can get mine to is about 5.5. The battery could have been overcharged which led to failure. That is possible.
I don't believe the battery could go dead at 5.9 volts. After a night of chargeing the highest I can get mine to is about 5.5. The battery could have been overcharged which led to failure. That is possible.
If you have a 6 volt pack that is peaking at 5.5 volts...it is suspect.
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
ORIGINAL: Cuti
Hello,
I just wanted to say a few things that I think of this whole situation.
Being a experienced flier, and builder myself lets look at this from another point of view shall we!
Lets say a Citation goes down in Flordia, when the NTSB goes out and investagates the accident, they look for a black box, and try to locate the probable cause of the accident. If they found that the accident was caused by a squat malfunction in the rear landing gear hatch, they would go after the maker/designer of the part. Would the NTSB go after the pilot of the aircraft and try to blame him for the accident, no
Da. Man
Hello,
I just wanted to say a few things that I think of this whole situation.
Being a experienced flier, and builder myself lets look at this from another point of view shall we!
Lets say a Citation goes down in Flordia, when the NTSB goes out and investagates the accident, they look for a black box, and try to locate the probable cause of the accident. If they found that the accident was caused by a squat malfunction in the rear landing gear hatch, they would go after the maker/designer of the part. Would the NTSB go after the pilot of the aircraft and try to blame him for the accident, no
Da. Man
Let's look at this citation scenario properly.
Some guy, without the owners permission, gets in the plane and flys to florida, where he crashes it. The NTSB, during the course of the investigation learns the pilot did not have authorization to take the plane. They contact the FBI, who arrest the man for grand theft...plus whatever else comes from the investigation.
#62
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Just to clarify the battery issue, from the pics that are posted the pack in question is a standard 4 cell Futaba NR4J 4.8v / 600mah. This would in fact peak at about 5.65v. But hey I'm no battery expert.
#63
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
I appreciate all your encouragement. I would like to clear something up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would like to say I have never mentioned this clubs name in these post!
Also, I FULLY UNDERSTAND that it is no officer of the clubs responsibility or fault my plane crashed or the club. I'm sure its a great club with great people. I was wanting to join this club prior to this event. No one sees it my way! They have a awesome field and I don't have any negative feelings toward MATT or CHUCK other than what took place without my permission. The radio he sold me works other than a throttle trim & the modes to set it up. Maybe he didn't know? I'm totally not worried about that one bit thats what happens when you buy used stuff. That was not to make him sound like a crook. Chuck is a great guy thats why I put my trust in him to fix my wings on the Pitts and build my Taylorcraft. Matt could be a great pilot I HAVE NEVER SEEN him fly? I'm not slamming anyone. I think that they are responsable for my plane that I had no idea they were going to fly that night! I'm not happy with them the way they are not going to help me. It does not take long to get to know me and to tell I'm easy going and a nice guy. I will stand my ground and not be taken advantage of. I have a right to have a fully flying PITTS 1/3 SCALE ARF! They don;t want to work anything out with me in the attemps to talk with them they just ignore the discussion and bring up other issues with the plane.
Let me just say I have some evidense (hard facts) that l will present that will prove this in case if needed at that point. So I won't say here because either way it won't do a thing on here. MY INTENT OF THIS POST IS TO SHARE WITH YOU THE HISTORY of this my flying adventures, not to slam anyone! Thanks, Shawn
I would like to say I have never mentioned this clubs name in these post!
Also, I FULLY UNDERSTAND that it is no officer of the clubs responsibility or fault my plane crashed or the club. I'm sure its a great club with great people. I was wanting to join this club prior to this event. No one sees it my way! They have a awesome field and I don't have any negative feelings toward MATT or CHUCK other than what took place without my permission. The radio he sold me works other than a throttle trim & the modes to set it up. Maybe he didn't know? I'm totally not worried about that one bit thats what happens when you buy used stuff. That was not to make him sound like a crook. Chuck is a great guy thats why I put my trust in him to fix my wings on the Pitts and build my Taylorcraft. Matt could be a great pilot I HAVE NEVER SEEN him fly? I'm not slamming anyone. I think that they are responsable for my plane that I had no idea they were going to fly that night! I'm not happy with them the way they are not going to help me. It does not take long to get to know me and to tell I'm easy going and a nice guy. I will stand my ground and not be taken advantage of. I have a right to have a fully flying PITTS 1/3 SCALE ARF! They don;t want to work anything out with me in the attemps to talk with them they just ignore the discussion and bring up other issues with the plane.
Let me just say I have some evidense (hard facts) that l will present that will prove this in case if needed at that point. So I won't say here because either way it won't do a thing on here. MY INTENT OF THIS POST IS TO SHARE WITH YOU THE HISTORY of this my flying adventures, not to slam anyone! Thanks, Shawn
#64
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Shawn, You are to nice. I'm guessing your on the young side also. Maybe mid twentys?With a few more years under your belt you would be a little more agressive in your dealing with Chuck. Chuck is the culprit here leave the pilot out of it.Sit down and write Chuck a letter with a fair list of demands. Send it to him with return reciept requested. This should be your first step. If you don't get satisfaction that way take him to court. Make sure to have all your reciepts and calmly present your case in court.
Good luck David
Good luck David
#65
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Many of you have missed the POINT. No matter the cell, no matter the radio or skill of the pilot or any contributing factors of the crash, these are IRRELEVENT to this situation. The fact is the PILOT had no permission to fly the plane, the owner was unaware of the maiden flight. The pilot is totally responsible for a new plane.
Regardless the pilot was in possession and responsible for the plane. Why is this so hard to understand? OK say the pilot while unloading the craft, the hood from his SUV slammed the fuse and caused damage according to you guys shauwn is responsible WOW. GO AHEAD AND BEAT THAT DEAD HORSE some more.
Regardless the pilot was in possession and responsible for the plane. Why is this so hard to understand? OK say the pilot while unloading the craft, the hood from his SUV slammed the fuse and caused damage according to you guys shauwn is responsible WOW. GO AHEAD AND BEAT THAT DEAD HORSE some more.
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
If you take him to court, that is not a good way to jump into the hobby, that will travel to other clubs you may want to join.
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Combat,
It's a little too late for that, after all this is the World Wide Web. It won't make a difference weather it goes to court or not, perhaps a thousand more people too many know about it now. In my opinion this whole bloody mess should have never seen these pages.
It's a little too late for that, after all this is the World Wide Web. It won't make a difference weather it goes to court or not, perhaps a thousand more people too many know about it now. In my opinion this whole bloody mess should have never seen these pages.
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Combat Addict
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
I was thinking of 4 cell 4.8v 600mah standard futaba batteries. Usually after a day of overcharging, the highest I can get is 5.65 or so.
#72
RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
ORIGINAL: P-51B
Let's look at this citation scenario properly.
Some guy, without the owners permission, gets in the plane and flys to florida, where he crashes it. The NTSB, during the course of the investigation learns the pilot did not have authorization to take the plane. They contact the FBI, who arrest the man for grand theft...plus whatever else comes from the investigation.
ORIGINAL: Cuti
Hello,
I just wanted to say a few things that I think of this whole situation.
Being a experienced flier, and builder myself lets look at this from another point of view shall we!
Lets say a Citation goes down in Flordia, when the NTSB goes out and investagates the accident, they look for a black box, and try to locate the probable cause of the accident. If they found that the accident was caused by a squat malfunction in the rear landing gear hatch, they would go after the maker/designer of the part. Would the NTSB go after the pilot of the aircraft and try to blame him for the accident, no
Da. Man
Hello,
I just wanted to say a few things that I think of this whole situation.
Being a experienced flier, and builder myself lets look at this from another point of view shall we!
Lets say a Citation goes down in Flordia, when the NTSB goes out and investagates the accident, they look for a black box, and try to locate the probable cause of the accident. If they found that the accident was caused by a squat malfunction in the rear landing gear hatch, they would go after the maker/designer of the part. Would the NTSB go after the pilot of the aircraft and try to blame him for the accident, no
Da. Man
Let's look at this citation scenario properly.
Some guy, without the owners permission, gets in the plane and flys to florida, where he crashes it. The NTSB, during the course of the investigation learns the pilot did not have authorization to take the plane. They contact the FBI, who arrest the man for grand theft...plus whatever else comes from the investigation.
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Cobat,
That was a retarted statement[:-] I doubt from reading this post he could care less if he ever makes a new friend in this hobby. Its too bad!! Would you I wouldn't doubt it if he just hangs it up all together. Those guys had no BUSINESS FLYING THAT plane without him there. May I also say that from the look of this thread that most people would stand behind him if they did find out...I hope the guy gets his plane back he deserves it!
If you take him to court, that is not a good way to jump into the hobby, that will travel to other clubs you may want to join.
That was a retarted statement[:-] I doubt from reading this post he could care less if he ever makes a new friend in this hobby. Its too bad!! Would you I wouldn't doubt it if he just hangs it up all together. Those guys had no BUSINESS FLYING THAT plane without him there. May I also say that from the look of this thread that most people would stand behind him if they did find out...I hope the guy gets his plane back he deserves it!
#74
RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
If the guys that damaged the plane truly had permission I would think their buddy that posted earlier would tell them about this thread and they would respond, saying they did or did not have permission. The fact that they dont makes me suspect some wrongdoing on their part.
just my 2 cents worth
just my 2 cents worth
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
Thanks for the calm and level-headed post. You are most correct about our club . . . and we definitely are not a collection of 'good ole boys' as someone suggested earlier. When someone becomes slanderous and vilifies me and our club, I see no reason to continue to attempt to help resolve the matter.
WHOOOOAAA there nellie....
After seeing a few hints and knowing what club this is now, I can say that the fellas I have met from there have all been good fellows. Friendly and responsible.
After seeing a few hints and knowing what club this is now, I can say that the fellas I have met from there have all been good fellows. Friendly and responsible.