nightrider_rc

i would say that he was 100% responsa ble for the crash. one time i asked a instructer to test fly my airplane and it was under powered, he crashed it and it was my fault because i built it and it was a building error, not pilot error, if it was pilot error than i say thay the instructor was at fault even so i wouldn't expect any money or re-embirsment for it.

jdwardus

My Feedback: (2)

well i did learn by my self and have taught many others as well when some one ask me to help i do just that that includes checking the plane for flight worthyness.but you are right sh%#$ does happen my last trainy came where i fly and ask me to teach him to fly and so idid.i done a range check and checked all controll movement.then we were off.as soon as the plane climb high enough to trim i lost controll smashed the ground real good.are inspection revealed loose battery connection. i could not have known this because this was internal.HIS FAUGHT

conradj87

My Feedback: (1)

I think 50% is fair. If it was totalled id feel alot worse, but since its not all that bad, i think helping him get it running again would be a good deal

h-ray-RCA

His fault 100%.


-One of the first things I learned when I began learning how to fly was that when an a/c came out of Mx you triple checked EVERYTHING. One of the first things I taught was that when an a/c came out of Mx you triple checked EVERYTHING.

-When he ambushed you by giving you the tx he took responsibility for giving you an airplane ready for flight. It wasn't.


But learning from others, if this ever happens to me I'll make a 180 and return the airplane to the pits for a detailed preflight, including the repairs he made. If you had hit something the court would have probably come after you.

The gracious thing would be to help him rebuild it, and help him make up a preflight checklist for his airplanes. At least you both were able to walk away from it.


Good Luck

MR Flyer57

Hi CafeenMan,
Great thread,
This is a question that needs a lot of thought, and has been around as long as we have been flying RC planes.
I think that airdoggy has the right idea, but I would just like to give you the rule of thumb that our club, and other clubs around here have decided on.

If you walk up to someone and ask to fly their plane it is your baby and your fault if it crashes. You can't pay for it or fix it, don't ask to fly it.

If someone asks you to fly their plane, then it is their problem.
this includes trainers.

These are hard and fast around here, but are mixed with a big helping of "man I'm sorry, and I will help you fix it".

If you were asked to fly someones plane and did something stupid, you should try and work it out, and maybe pay for it, but it isn't required.

You shoot someone down, you fix it or get them another plane. Watch you freq tags!

Modify your response to the conditions at the time and use the above as your guide.
Be as fair as you can, because you have to live with yourself and the others at the field.

In your case, your only fault was a small misjudgment when checking out his airplane. Not a reason to buy him a plane.
When he handed the transmitter to you, no one would have flown it successfully. Not him, not you, not anyone. That part is on him.

Conclusion: You may feel guilty (and should) about the faulty check out of the plane, but you have no fault about the crash, stuff happens. If he would of had 10 people check out his plane who would be at fault then? (happened to me, they checked it, I crashed it)

If someone else had crashed it, you would have felt bad about giving it a bad once over, but that would have not been enough reason for you to have replaced the plane.

You should feel bad about the bad check over and offer to help him fix it, but you do not owe him anything.

The way we say it here is,,,, you screwed up son,,, you trusted me!!!

To check over somebody's plane does not make you liable, if done in good faith. Unless your getting paid. He checked it, and missed the mistake, you checked it and also missed it. It happens.

Crashes happen, don't let it get you down.

Just my thoughts, and our rules!!

MR Flyer57

jdwardus

My Feedback: (2)

YEA YOU SHOULDNT HAVE TO PAY FOR ANT THING I MEEN HE ASK YOU TO FLY IT.BUT IT WAS YOUR FAULT IT CRASHED. I DIDNT MEEN YOU SHOULD BUY HIM A PLANE

F4U Killer

I did something like this a year ago. I went to a little spot that I thought was secluded to find 3 others there already flying. (So much for dry lake beds in the desert) Anyway there was guy that shared the same freguency that I did.

When he was done flying I made sure his radio was off before I flew. I finished my flight and as I was taxing to my Truck his partner came over to BS with me. I shut my plane down, I reached down and turn the power off to the plane when the guy really started talking and took my attention away from what I was doing. I turned and set my Radio on the hood of my Truck and started Talking.
The one with the plane asked if I was done and I said yes. He started his plane and started to Taxi when it went to full power and ran into a 4 wheeler tire about 3 ft from me.
Everyone stood there in shock for a minute, and as I was standing there. I had the realization, that because I had become distracted that I might not have turned my Radio off.
Well low and behold it was still on and I had bumped it to half throttle when I set it on the truck.

Since I was Dumb enough to leave my radio on I felt responsible for it and I bought him a new plane.

But I also believe that he should have made sure my Radio was off before he decided to fly the same way I did with his.

I made one more flight and was feeling really bad about what happened and the wind was starting to come up a bit so I decided to put my plane up.

This same guy had another plane and decided to fly that one. He took off and promptly crashed that one. He came running over to me and I told him that one wasn't my fault and that my radio was turned off and in the Truck.

I had told this story to some at the Local flying field and many of them said I didn't owe the guy anything.

This was my reintroduction back to RC sports I had only been flying again for 3 months after a 17 yr break.

I chalked it up to lessons learned.

multicasting

What a mess.

This guy has been flying for FIVE years and wanted you to do a check flight on an LT 40? When I take a plane out for the first time, I might have another pair of eyes check it over with me. I'll even have a senior pilot fly it if I am concerned about my ability to respond to a failure. I have lost an aircraft twice to building errors that occured on my building bench. Never did I expect the check pilot to be responsible for it. Not even when an 18 year pilot took an aerobatic up through moves that were so violent that the elevator snapped.

I can't believe anyone in this forum would hold you even remotely responsible for a rookie mistake made by a five year vet.

I also would never have flown it without a complete ground test. Now, I did have a situation where a pilot had a medical issue and suddenly handed me a TX. I was able to land the plane without incident. But this was not a first flight.

Falcon Jet

I definately know how you feel. Your responsible for his first plane, but definately not the second. When it happened to me I was at an AMA field. I too was BS'ing with someone else when I decided to check my plane out prior to the flight. I had checked the frequency board not even 5 minutes before, but because I was talking to someone else, forgot to cover it with my card. I didn't think anything about it when I turned my xmitter on, then moments later the other guy crashed. He did the right thing by putting his card on the board, unfortunetely, it was after I had checked it and thought it was clear. When his plane went in I thought he was going to deck me, he was about twice the size of me. [] But since I immediatley fessed up to it, he was cool about it. The only thing I could think of doing was to leave immediately, which I did. A week later I sent him a check for the total cost of his plane. For several months after that, I received nothing but jeers and finger pointing every time I went back out there from other people. After awhile, that got very old, so I went somewhere else to fly. I did the right thing and paid the man, it was just between him and I, unfortunely others couldn't see it that way and I quickly became black-balled at the field. It's very unfortunate what I did happened, but you know what, it wasn't the first time something like that has happened and it won't be the last. People are human and do make mistakes, at least I was man enough to admit it and did the right thing. It's too bad others couldn't see it that way!

Chris.

CafeenMan

Chris - Personally, I think the other guy should have told the rest of the members that you two had worked it out between you and that you did do the right thing. Even though you did make a mistake, you paid for that mistake, but the club members were really out of line. It's too bad some people are like that. It's even worse when a whole bunch of people are like that. I probably would have left that club too.

- Paul

Blue_Moon_

yeah, tell us dude

CafeenMan

Blue_Moon_

OK, did it went that way then?

Falcon Jet

Thanks Paul,

Ya, your right. The other Gentleman claimed that he did in fact tell everyone else it was over (on my request), but that didn't seem to matter. As far as some of the older gentleman in the Club were concerned, I shot him down and that's all that mattered, period. It's too bad a few can take a bad situation and make it worse. A couple months after the incident, when I thought it was done and over with, I had a guy come up to me and ask "Have you shot down anyone lately?". It was then when I decided to fly somewhere else, obviously after I told him my beliefs about him minding his own business. [>:] This particular club is well known for having their own "click", if you didn't belong then you were treated like &%$#. Hope they have a good time, I'll never go back!

Is there anyone else out there that has had a similar experience?

Chris.

CafeenMan

Pending. I expect he'll be calling some time this coming week.

CafeenMan

Chris - The first club I belonged to had a Pattern Guy clique. You either flew pattern or you weren't worthy. I was one of the unworthy ones, but fortunately, the Dark Side outnumbered the Enlightened Ones. It was no where near as bad as what you're describing though. Just some snotty attitudes, but nothing overt.

Falcon Jet

Paul,

I know what ya mean. For the record, this field I'm talking about is not where I live now, it was back east, 4-5 years ago. The Club President did in fact contact me a year or so after the incident when he heard what happened and wanted to know the details about how I was treated, so on and so forth. After I told him the details, he apoligized on behalf of the Club. I appreciated him for doing that, unfortunetely I was due to move in a couple of weeks, so never had the opportunity to give the field a second chance.

Chris.

RCRAINMAN

I would have to say from flying real airplanes and understanding the responsibility in a full scale situation, you are 100% responsible. You were what we call PIC (pilot in command) and there's really no way around that fact. When you are at the controls and the wheels leave the ground, you are now 100% responsible as to what happens to the plane.

h-ray-RCA

...

DaveGell

Paul,

I'm going to agree with the consensus as I see it. You are partially at fault and the remedy of helping him fix the plane is appropriate. Now, what can be learned from the accident. First, make sure responsibility is understood before flying someone else's model. A number of different approaches have been suggested from an explicit statement before flight, to rules and etiquette.

Next, how to avoid crashes like this:
C - controls
A - antenna
T - trim

A little mnemonic you recite before taking to the runway, perform the CAT check. Check Controls for correct motion, antenna extended fully, and trim setting in the middle. It only takes a minute or two and can help avoid crashes.

I help at our club's training night. I don't instruct but I do inspect. We've developed a check list for preflight inspections. I'll go over the newby's model with the checklist, explain what I'm checking, and if anything requires fixing, I'll either explain how if it is major, or help fix at the field if it is minor. ( If glue is required it's major)

I don't have the checklist posted anywhere, but I can email it to you if interested.

Dave Gell

CafeenMan

Well, I saw the guy at the field today. He claims that he checked the controls before he handed the box to me and that the radio has a problem where channels reverse on their own. I'm skeptical, but he has absolved me of all responsibility. He brought the plane by tonight and honestly, the fuselage is totalled.

I told him that if he bought a new kit that I would build the fuselage for him.

DaveGell

The radio reverses on it's own.!!! Why does he still own it? He should either get it fixed or junk it. This is really really REALLY R*E*A*L*Y dangerous.

CafeenMan

He sent it in. The plane had flown before. I honestly believe he changed something and reversed the channel. Maybe he had the servo arm on backwards or something. But he says he's lost two planes due to that radio. I'd be less skeptical if any of his planes lasted more than a month.

BelIblis

Interesting excuse[:-]

I know I am a bit late about this, but I would have to agree with pretty well everyone else. The fault goes about 50/50, however, I think that you should not have to put ANY money into this. It was his plane, and his decision to give it to you.

We have a guy kinda like this at our club... he has been around far longer than I have, and he can barely take off!!! I see every couple of months or so after he repairs from his last *crash*

Whatever, it looks like you have a handle on it... have a good time building, if you do!

TGoodwin

Whenever I complete a new plane or repair a plane after a crash I always ask another modeler whom I respect to give it a look over for me.When building or repairing it is too easy to look at something for hours on end and still over look it. I ALWAYS test fly my own planes. I am the one that put all of the time and money into it and if it is going to crash then I am going to be the one crashing it. I very rarely ever let anyone else fly my planes except on trainer cord.

That being said if I had asked a fellow pilot to give it a look over and then I went out and crashed on takeoff due to a reversed aileron or anything else. I do not feel that the person that I asked to do me a favor and look it over is in any way at fault! I AM ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE.

Last year I was glide testing a new plane that I had built/designed from scratch. The plane had no motor and minimum electronics installed. It was to be carried to altitude atop a large gas powered high wing trainer type plane and then released for the glide test. Well I had proven that the plane would fly with the test plane on top the weekend before. I asked a good Friend and probably better pilot than I to pilot the carrier plane for me. He had never flown the plane before and it had some handling problems with the other plane sitting in the cradle on top but was still safely controllable. Well he crashed on takeoff with the test plane on top and did allot of damage to the carrier plane. Was he in any way at fault? ABSOLUTELY NOT! He was doing me a favor. The carrier plane was repaired and a successful drop happened the following weekend. Although the Friend felt bad and still refuses to help me with any other test flights 100% of the responsibility was MINE.

I usually refuse when asked to test fly other peoples planes also. Mainly for two reasons. one is because I would feel bad if it crashed for any reason and two because of this childish attitude expressed here by some that I would be at least partially responsible for doing them a favor!

That is my $.02

Ted