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UPDATE Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

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UPDATE Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

Old 10-16-2006, 07:48 PM
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Mr67Stang
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Default UPDATE Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I have spent the last 2 months bugging my buddy to come out to the feild and start flying with me. Well he finally picked up a H9 Alpha 40 RTF put it together per the manual and met me at the feild. I looked over his plane and helpped him with some ground tech and passed him to a more experienced pilot to help him with the initial trim flight. Our expert took the plane up and was having a hard time trimming the plane out... seemed to be constantly changing. Then the plane took a hard left and dove to Tera Firma. Well the 2 minute flight was followed by a 20 minute search in the bean field to find that the wing halves were seperated. The wing halves of this plane have a 3/4 in wide piece of tape (like packing tape) and 2 aluminum tubes joining them... That's all. The ailerons were constantly changing as the wing halves worked themselves apart changing the linkage geometry. (This of course is speculation). I am in no way saying there was no error on our part here because common sense would dictate that you epoxy wing halves together. I just hope my buddy is not to discuraged and gives it another go. Has anyone else seen this happen? or have experience with this plane and what did you think about the packing tape?

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Old 10-16-2006, 07:58 PM
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Kmot
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..
That's gotta be one of the best "one liners" I have heard.

Sorry about your buddies plane!
Old 10-16-2006, 08:33 PM
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dioncuda
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

Yes it has.My friend had it to happen.
It had a few flights on it.You can see in the pic the wings came apart.
Dont let him give up.
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Old 10-16-2006, 08:42 PM
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rrragmanliam
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

Hi 67,

Sounds like a poor design to me. 3/4 of an inch isn't much tape, 2" packingtape would be better. But I cant even believe the mfg signed off on taping the wings together. It's only going to be a few flights before oil starts working it's way under the tape and starts causing problems. The wing should be glued and the seam glassed. What really gets me though is how was your buddy to know it was a poor design? The MFG is at fault here and completly failed your friend.

Darren
Old 10-16-2006, 08:59 PM
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Mr67Stang
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..


ORIGINAL: rrragmanliam

Hi 67,

Sounds like a poor design to me. 3/4 of an inch isn't much tape, 2" packingtape would be better. But I cant even believe the mfg signed off on taping the wings together. It's only going to be a few flights before oil starts working it's way under the tape and starts causing problems. The wing should be glued and the seam glassed. What really gets me though is how was your buddy to know it was a poor design? The MFG is at fault here and completly failed your friend.

Darren
This is the route we are trying to take here. He is contacting H9 to see if they will replace it. As this is what was sudjested by my clubs senior members. If they fail to back the product I doubt my friend will by another H9 plane even though most are pretty good. I think I have him talked into getting a Tower trainer ARF to put his parts into if H9 will not replace the loss.
Old 10-16-2006, 09:06 PM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I seem to remember our Alpha came with a small tube of red stuff - a bit like loctite. It worked extremely well on the wing joint but it wasn't mentioned in the instructions to use it - our LHS man told us about it.
Old 10-16-2006, 09:08 PM
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Mr67Stang
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..


ORIGINAL: aussiesteve

I seem to remember our Alpha came with a small tube of red stuff - a bit like loctite. It worked extremely well on the wing joint but it wasn't mentioned in the instructions to use it - our LHS man told us about it.
Thanks, I will ask my buddy about that.
Old 10-16-2006, 09:16 PM
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Mr67Stang
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

Decided to look online for the insrtruction manual for this plane. Take a look at the short directions provided for joining the wing halves.

http://www.hangar-9.com/ProdInfo/Fil...475-manual.pdf

Old 10-16-2006, 09:50 PM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I had the alpha and arrow never had any trouble with the wing taped
in fact it was so strong the the arrow had a midair the cut half of one wing off and even after hitting the ground wide open the wind joint was fine
Old 10-17-2006, 03:49 AM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I have one of these too. It's my first plane, so I just put it together how the instructions said. I used the tape, and was surprised how strong the joint was.

After two or three flights, I was giving the plane a quick check, and found problems starting. The tape at the leading edge was starting to split right at the joint. If you held each wing half, you could easily move them around a little. I epoxied and glassed the joint before I tried flying it again.
Old 10-17-2006, 07:30 AM
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weeber24
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

Ouch sorry about the loss. Hopefully your friend will jump right back in the saddle. I have to say I'm somewhat surprised about the wings separating in flight. I started with my Alpha 40 RTF back in April and flew for several months with the wings just taped together. Glow fuel eventually got to the tape, and I epoxied the wing halves together.

Out of curiousity, how many rubber bands did you use to connect the wings to the fuse? I usually did four (two per side) front to back and then four more (two per side) going front-left to back-right and vice versa. I wonder if this would help keep the wing halves together as well?

From the sounds of it, H9 should replace the plane since it was built per their instructions and an experienced guy was at the controls. Hopefully they'll do your friend right.
Old 10-17-2006, 07:45 AM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I had a Hobbico Trainer do the same thing mid-flight. With mine though the wing half totaly seperated and the plane came down in a half-wing spiral of death. Six inches deep I found the engine broken off and buried. Enough with the balsa for a first plane. Have you ever seen the www.spadtothebone.com web site and the links to the FREE plans. It may take a bit of searching here and the related site www.spadworld.net .
I went here and have built a number of the planes. My first SPAD plane was truely crash tested. I ran into trees, hay bales, the ground, you name it. Through all of it, most of the time all I had to do was clean of debris and change the rubber bands. I built a Debonair for the club as a club trainer. One day while flying I failed to use strong enough rubber bands. The wing came off mid flight and floated to the ground. The fuse came down at a bit of a faster rate, as you can guess. Within about two hours of readjusting and replacing the engine mount and CAing a small fuse crack, it was ready to fly again.
The best thing is that the parts came to a total of under fifty bucks. And for that amount two planes can be built. You have to have your own radio gear and engine, but I am going to guess that these can still be used from you untimely expiration date.
Old 10-17-2006, 08:20 AM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

That's interesting that they rely on tape like that. I had the NexSTAR trainer, RTF. It had a steel spar and a plastic gizmo that the wing halves slid into and, I believe, four screws to hold the two wing halves into the plastic gizmo. The gizmo was a cup like device that each half slid into. It was very strong, well, strong enough to put up with the abuse I gave it while learning to fly. I sold the plane to an elderly gent who still fly's it. I solo'ed four years ago.

Easy for us to hind-sight for you, but to be truthful, I probably would have followed directions and used the tape, without knowing any better. Now, of course, we all can say it would have been better to epoxy the two halves together and glassed the joint.. but as I said, beginners don't know these tricks. Tough way to learn, though. I hope he gets a new model and continues to fly. It's worth the time and often the heartaches to learn to fly RC.

H9 should really consider working with you and replacing this.

DS.
Old 10-17-2006, 08:43 AM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..


ORIGINAL: CGRetired

That's interesting that they rely on tape like that. I had the NexSTAR trainer, RTF. It had a steel spar and a plastic gizmo that the wing halves slid into and, I believe, four screws to hold the two wing halves into the plastic gizmo. The gizmo was a cup like device that each half slid into. It was very strong, well, strong enough to put up with the abuse I gave it while learning to fly. I sold the plane to an elderly gent who still fly's it. I solo'ed four years ago.

DS.
I Had a H9 trainer (.40 size) previous to the Alpha, where the wing was in 2 pieces w/a steel-rod joiner. On the bottom of the wing you installed 2 small screws (smaller than a servo screw) and you ruberbanded the 2 wings together using a miniscule rubberband around the screw heads. This was only to keep the wing together while moving the wing around. When you installed the wing on the plane at the filed, you attached the wing with 4 rubberbands per side, and the pressure of the rubberbands against the wing, kept it in place. We tried pulling from both wingtips, but the friction of the 8 rubberbands allowed no movement. I flew the plane for many years (instructing others) until I sold the thing earlier this year (replaced by an electric 70" Telemaster).

I hope you get the plane replaced by H9:-) IF you had 4 rubberbands per side I cannot explain the separation, after all this thing does not roll like an Extra 300...

Gerry


Old 10-17-2006, 08:53 AM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

Let us know what H9 does for you. It will be interesting to see if they will replace it.

Whether the tape is strong or not, that is not the proper way to join wing halves. Since I am experienced I would know to epoxy the halves together and glass it.

Your friend had no idea, but that is not the point. The manual should, or actually the MFG should have had a better assembly plan.

Good luck.
Old 10-17-2006, 10:17 AM
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Flak
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I always epoxy the wing halves together. I'll keep an eye out for this at my field. I would hate to see someone lose their plane, due to what the mfgr says. I have 15 years of building experience. I can match the best of them. Most folks don't realize the G forces that are placed on our models. Relying on a piece of tape to hold two wing halves together is unsafe and absurd. Sooner or later the tape will fail, epoxy won't. Good luck with the next plane.
Old 10-17-2006, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I got my Alpha second hand and there was no tape, I went to my LHS and got some other tape, very strong stuff if I remove it the tape will take the covering with it. Well the guy at the LHS told me to glue the wing together, my first flight I did not, but I did not long after, I have not had any problems, and my tape is still there. However last time I flew it I felt some movement in the wing halves which I am going to keep an eye on.
Old 10-17-2006, 11:22 AM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..


ORIGINAL: Mr67Stang

Decided to look online for the insrtruction manual for this plane. Take a look at the short directions provided for joining the wing halves.

http://www.hangar-9.com/ProdInfo/Fil...475-manual.pdf


What a junk method of joining wing sections! I CANNOT believe that the manufacture would actually think that would be sufficient! Man, sorry for your buddies loss. As stated previously, If I were new to the hobby and didn't know any better, I would have done the same thing also following the Mfg's instructions. I sure hope that Hangar 9 replaces it. This is a sore way to get started into R/C. I hate to see this happen to a new R/Cer. Best of luck to you and your friend.
Old 10-17-2006, 12:36 PM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

the red stuff tube is threadlock material; beware!
Old 10-17-2006, 03:22 PM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..


ORIGINAL: skiman762

...arrow never had any trouble...in fact it was so strong...
Thanks man!!! (just kidding couldn't resist!)

Weeber,
Dude you need to put more rubber on that wing my man, its been a long time but I think four per side with two crossing over, for a total of 10!!! I think that's good, any loops with four total and that wing will probably seperate from the saddle on you. Not totally sure, but I think 10, its got to be more than four.

Stang,
Let us know what Hang 9 tells you guys. Hope they work it out for you!!!
Old 10-17-2006, 04:54 PM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

If you used the locktight on the wing.. then what did you use to hold the tail feathers togeather?

Personnaly i used locktight on the feathers and apon reading that it was not supposed to be glued a emaild some one i knew at the club and they told me to epoxy it so i did never had a problem i dont see why one would need to glass it its a trainer i dont think it need the extra force
Old 10-17-2006, 05:35 PM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

Just to clarify this one - I used the loctite on the tailfeathers also.
I have over 20 years (with a 10 year break in between of flying & building when I bought mine. I only bought it because I was new to the country and the field in 2005 when I went to the US and wanted something that I didn't need to think about flying while I got used to the new environment (I had discovered that the scene there was a lot different to what I was used to elsewhere - a lot more larger and faster, Everyone but me on Mode 2 - etc).

I followed the suggestion of the LHS man, bolted the tail feathers on first then used the excess loctite on the wing joint (I was surprised at how well it worked). I didn't want to epoxy the wing at the time because I was only originally going to be there for 3 months and thought I might take the plane back with me when I departed (which I finally did 18 months later with a number of planes but no trainers)

Ironically the first one I bought (An Alpha) flew for about 15 feet before the pushrod for the elevator popped out of the servo horn (The tail of the bend was not long enough - my bad for not picking that one up) and the second one (which was actually an Arrow) commited suicide after the tail separated in front of the area where it bolts on (when one of the teenagers was flying it flat out & inverted with a 10 x 7 prop on it). I probably could have gone back to H9 over both of these failures (certainly the first one) but never quite got around to doing so.
Old 10-17-2006, 06:36 PM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..


ORIGINAL: aussiesteve

Just to clarify this one - I used the loctite on the tailfeathers also.
I have over 20 years (with a 10 year break in between of flying & building when I bought mine. I only bought it because I was new to the country and the field in 2005 when I went to the US and wanted something that I didn't need to think about flying while I got used to the new environment (I had discovered that the scene there was a lot different to what I was used to elsewhere - a lot more larger and faster, Everyone but me on Mode 2 - etc).

I followed the suggestion of the LHS man, bolted the tail feathers on first then used the excess loctite on the wing joint (I was surprised at how well it worked). I didn't want to epoxy the wing at the time because I was only originally going to be there for 3 months and thought I might take the plane back with me when I departed (which I finally did 18 months later with a number of planes but no trainers)

Ironically the first one I bought (An Alpha) flew for about 15 feet before the pushrod for the elevator popped out of the servo horn (The tail of the bend was not long enough - my bad for not picking that one up) and the second one (which was actually an Arrow) commited suicide after the tail separated in front of the area where it bolts on (when one of the teenagers was flying it flat out & inverted with a 10 x 7 prop on it). I probably could have gone back to H9 over both of these failures (certainly the first one) but never quite got around to doing so.
oo ok sorry il shut up now i though you used ALL the locktight on the wint and none on the feathers which as im sure you know would be a very bad idea as if the feathers come loose in flight things will get very enteresting very quickly
Old 10-17-2006, 07:43 PM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I do agree gluing the wings together would be better
I don't think you can automatically blame the wing joint after a crash unless you see it come apart and cause the crash
it could be from the crash not the cause if it.
and also there isn't a plane made that doesn't have a weak spot I know I could find it [hr]
Old 10-18-2006, 09:33 AM
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Default RE: Hate it when the expiration date matches the maiden..

I am not trying to be the bad guy here but..........Both of the planes pictured had two blade props fitted to them. This effectively doubled the air speed of this plane.This wing design may not be the best.
However Horizon may baulk at the prop change. I have flown a few of these and the three blade prop along with the needle valve limiters are a pain. At least for an experienced flyer. These things did however keep the air speed way down. Please don't take this as criticism. I would have done the same thing with the prop. I just think you gave Horizon a way out of their liability.

David

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