Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
#51
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
I used to think midairs were completely avoidable...until I had one.
I was training somebody on training night (6 planes in the air) when one of the best pilots in our club (also training) started a loop. I noticed I was going towards him (I glance quickly to keep tabs on where people are), so I assumed that he was climbing to keep proper separation. He came back around and the second he came out of the loop...BOOM!!! I saw it a split second before it happened and pulled hard left since he looked like he was to the right if anything but it the second I started to bank we collided. We couldn't have done that if we tried. Both airplanes were a total loss, they literally exploded and we never found the engines.
I was training somebody on training night (6 planes in the air) when one of the best pilots in our club (also training) started a loop. I noticed I was going towards him (I glance quickly to keep tabs on where people are), so I assumed that he was climbing to keep proper separation. He came back around and the second he came out of the loop...BOOM!!! I saw it a split second before it happened and pulled hard left since he looked like he was to the right if anything but it the second I started to bank we collided. We couldn't have done that if we tried. Both airplanes were a total loss, they literally exploded and we never found the engines.
#52
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
The only way to avoid a midair is to fly when no one else is in the air. Seeing and avoiding each other while sport flying at your local club field is virtually impossible. Having a spotter every time you go up is not practical.
I don’t want to sound cavalier about this but saying that “…every pilot has a responsibility to (do) everything in their power to avoid mid air collisions.†Takes the focus away from where it belongs. I can think of a whole lot of things that RC pilots need to do everything in their power to avoid and mid-airs are not even in the top 10. Protecting yourself, your flying buddies, the public at large, property, etc. comes to mind a whole lot sooner then avoiding a midair.
If we were talking airplanes with people in them (I hate to say it but “real†airplanes) I couldn’t agree more … but, these are model airplanes, vary small (in most cases), traveling at a high rate of speed (in most cases), in a liquid, variable medium, controlled from a distance that does not render clear or precise depth perception, using old technology radio equipment (in most cases)... To place fault or blame on someone for what would be a rare occurrence, if you actually tried to do it. Is just plain wrong, mean spirited and goes against the whole idea of what this sport (or hobby) is all about.
I don’t want to sound cavalier about this but saying that “…every pilot has a responsibility to (do) everything in their power to avoid mid air collisions.†Takes the focus away from where it belongs. I can think of a whole lot of things that RC pilots need to do everything in their power to avoid and mid-airs are not even in the top 10. Protecting yourself, your flying buddies, the public at large, property, etc. comes to mind a whole lot sooner then avoiding a midair.
If we were talking airplanes with people in them (I hate to say it but “real†airplanes) I couldn’t agree more … but, these are model airplanes, vary small (in most cases), traveling at a high rate of speed (in most cases), in a liquid, variable medium, controlled from a distance that does not render clear or precise depth perception, using old technology radio equipment (in most cases)... To place fault or blame on someone for what would be a rare occurrence, if you actually tried to do it. Is just plain wrong, mean spirited and goes against the whole idea of what this sport (or hobby) is all about.
#53
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
Without being there...its hard to judge who was right or wrong. I will however offer a tip that I use to avoid a situation like this. Since you were a visiting member, you were at a disadvantage in knowing who you were flying with. Knowing who you are sharing the air space with is very important in my opinion. When I fly I make sure that the person I am sharing the air space with has a similar viewpoint as mine should a mid air occur. People have all sorts of different opinions and reactions on things, and knowing how they react to certain situations is good knowledge to have when sharing a field. For example, there are some people who will look for anything or anyone to blame should an accident happen. Even if they are the only one in the air, and dumb thumb a plane in, they will immediately turn around looking for anyone besides themselves who may be at fault. It always strikes my as funny at how many recievers or batteries go bad right at the time when someone in is some precarious manuever that they are not sure how to get out of without smashing into the ground, or somehow flying upside down 4 ft off the runway drains batteries or makes recievers go bad, or someone turned on a radio on your frequency 100 miles away when you was flying 4 ft off the ground. You was certain you saw the guy pull when he should have pushed, but he will go to his grave swearing Tower Hobbies sold him a defective Futaba reciever. Then there are those like myself who accept that $%it happens from time to time, and its just part of the sport. We all zig sometimes when we should have zagged. I am not saying my attitude is right or wrong, but as long as I am flying with those who have the same attitude there will be no problems should a mid air occur. There will be no finger pointing, we both will express or sincere appologies for both losses, and continue on.
On the other hand, if I am flying with someone who I know will become upset regardless who is at fault, then I will just leave my Plane on the ground or come into land. I guess my point is to try to get to know who you are sharing a field with. Some guys take things with a grain of salt, and some don't. Niether are bad folks, and you can't blame someone who gets upset when they lose a nice Plane, its just that I prefer not be the focus of there anger should a mid air occur. Anyhow, I don't know if anyone is really to blame. The main thing IMO is to know who you are sharing the sky with, and if you are both comfortable flying with each other. As I said, you were at a disadvantage as a vistor. If you see the guy again, tell him your sorry to see his Plane end up like that whether you feel you are at fault or not. Sometimes things just happen, and hindsight is 20/20.
On the other hand, if I am flying with someone who I know will become upset regardless who is at fault, then I will just leave my Plane on the ground or come into land. I guess my point is to try to get to know who you are sharing a field with. Some guys take things with a grain of salt, and some don't. Niether are bad folks, and you can't blame someone who gets upset when they lose a nice Plane, its just that I prefer not be the focus of there anger should a mid air occur. Anyhow, I don't know if anyone is really to blame. The main thing IMO is to know who you are sharing the sky with, and if you are both comfortable flying with each other. As I said, you were at a disadvantage as a vistor. If you see the guy again, tell him your sorry to see his Plane end up like that whether you feel you are at fault or not. Sometimes things just happen, and hindsight is 20/20.
#55
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
ORIGINAL: bkdavy
I think there are two concepts being confused in this thread. Avoidability and Acceptability. I've been doing safety inspections for the Department of Energy for the past 17 years. One thing I have come to learn and understand is that ALL accidents are preventable. A mid air collision of model aircraft CAN be prevented by recognizing the inaccuracy of our depth perception, allowing sufficient margins between planes, and using spotters to help us know where other planes are.
...
Brad
I think there are two concepts being confused in this thread. Avoidability and Acceptability. I've been doing safety inspections for the Department of Energy for the past 17 years. One thing I have come to learn and understand is that ALL accidents are preventable. A mid air collision of model aircraft CAN be prevented by recognizing the inaccuracy of our depth perception, allowing sufficient margins between planes, and using spotters to help us know where other planes are.
...
Brad
#56
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
Why would anyone put a warbird up with 2 pattern type planes already flying?Lots different than going 3 wide down the interstate and turning hard left or right.More like showing up at Daytona with a Yugo and expecting not to get runover.
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
Lets never foget it's about fun. I'v seen the mid airs. I'ev seen best friends go at it.
It's a Hobbie. FUN with friends.
Say your sorry and move on. Even if You don't think it's Your fault, You can at least say Your sorry it happened.
john
It's a Hobbie. FUN with friends.
Say your sorry and move on. Even if You don't think it's Your fault, You can at least say Your sorry it happened.
john
#58
RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
Alot of different opinions here!
I think that to fly a Kaos in warbird pattern is just plain wrong! What else is that plane good for if not to fly 3D/patter Aerobatics? So he was flying typical "Warbird Pattern" stuff and you were flying typical"3D/Wild Aerobatic pattern"
Ummm. Unless your feild had rules against 3D/wild style flying. (Warbird only pattern)....Nobody's wrong. Example...There is no "Pattern" to a 3D flight unless you are truly trying to fly IMAC or another pre planned flight. Thats the beauty of 3D/Wild Aerobatics. I like both....Heck...I like all any and all kind of flying! Bummer about BOTH guys losses. NO FAULT!
I had to clarify my post alittle
I think that to fly a Kaos in warbird pattern is just plain wrong! What else is that plane good for if not to fly 3D/patter Aerobatics? So he was flying typical "Warbird Pattern" stuff and you were flying typical"3D/Wild Aerobatic pattern"
Ummm. Unless your feild had rules against 3D/wild style flying. (Warbird only pattern)....Nobody's wrong. Example...There is no "Pattern" to a 3D flight unless you are truly trying to fly IMAC or another pre planned flight. Thats the beauty of 3D/Wild Aerobatics. I like both....Heck...I like all any and all kind of flying! Bummer about BOTH guys losses. NO FAULT!
I had to clarify my post alittle
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
ORIGINAL: xanatos
I disagree. All human activities come with an element of risk and that risk can always be mitigated but never completely removed. RC flying is no exception. If you want to bear no risk of having your plane crash the only alternative is not to fly at all. But to the main topic IMO unless you want start extending the litigation industry to RC no blame should be attached to either party.
I disagree. All human activities come with an element of risk and that risk can always be mitigated but never completely removed. RC flying is no exception. If you want to bear no risk of having your plane crash the only alternative is not to fly at all. But to the main topic IMO unless you want start extending the litigation industry to RC no blame should be attached to either party.
I think you are right. RISK is always there for all human acts. Even real planes go down, or having mid-air.... After all it's a hobby remember???? We all know of the risk of injury or crash but we are there for the hobby!!!!! and these are my 2 cents...
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
No Matter what you do in this hobby, no matter how careful you are, at some point something is going to bring a craft down, IF you and the P40 guy are okay with each other then that should be all it has to be, I agree 100% that a good laugh and a coke (pepsie) should have been shared with each other because that is what this hobby is all about,, Good times, good laughs, and the ocasional why didn't I do that instead at the last second, makes this hobby the thrill that it is for me.
I have been in quite a few good mid air collisions, and I always say I'm sorry as we approach the carnege usually in awe and laughing about how cool that just was, and I usually get one back as well, But we have always enjoyed the crash as it happened, as we know its just part of the hobby, I am always sorry to see someones plane go into the ground so I always say I'm sorry, but I Always let them know just how cool it looked and especially in a mid air, I usually imediately start laughing and try to get the guy with me putting on a smile as we watch debrie fall from the skies.
I fly with a great bunch of people though and we can't preach enough to the new people joining us that no matter what,,, we are here to have a great time, and everyone at our club anyway is more then willing at anytime to help someone rebuild or give parts to someone who is in need of getting back in the sky. Even if that means handing over a plane for them to fly for the day, You just can't ask for better club members then that, I know many clubs don't have that, but they should, were all in this together, we all know what its like to lose a plane, and I know I'm going to lose another one sooner or later, my only wish is that it doesn't hit someone when it does and I hope I can view the crash for entertainment purposes.
I say sorry for you and your friends loss, now break out the Zap and epoxy and have a good time building another plane or rebuilding that one. Maybe there is a fault and maybe there wasn't, who cares,,, once you bring a plane into the sky, its all about the fun while your up there, If I had a plane I didn't want to crash ever or break, I would hang it on my ceiling, until I knew nobody was around when i went to fly it,, then I would just smash into the ground probably, and no one would have witnessed it,, that would be worse... LOL
Good Luck and I hope everything works out Okay
I have been in quite a few good mid air collisions, and I always say I'm sorry as we approach the carnege usually in awe and laughing about how cool that just was, and I usually get one back as well, But we have always enjoyed the crash as it happened, as we know its just part of the hobby, I am always sorry to see someones plane go into the ground so I always say I'm sorry, but I Always let them know just how cool it looked and especially in a mid air, I usually imediately start laughing and try to get the guy with me putting on a smile as we watch debrie fall from the skies.
I fly with a great bunch of people though and we can't preach enough to the new people joining us that no matter what,,, we are here to have a great time, and everyone at our club anyway is more then willing at anytime to help someone rebuild or give parts to someone who is in need of getting back in the sky. Even if that means handing over a plane for them to fly for the day, You just can't ask for better club members then that, I know many clubs don't have that, but they should, were all in this together, we all know what its like to lose a plane, and I know I'm going to lose another one sooner or later, my only wish is that it doesn't hit someone when it does and I hope I can view the crash for entertainment purposes.
I say sorry for you and your friends loss, now break out the Zap and epoxy and have a good time building another plane or rebuilding that one. Maybe there is a fault and maybe there wasn't, who cares,,, once you bring a plane into the sky, its all about the fun while your up there, If I had a plane I didn't want to crash ever or break, I would hang it on my ceiling, until I knew nobody was around when i went to fly it,, then I would just smash into the ground probably, and no one would have witnessed it,, that would be worse... LOL
Good Luck and I hope everything works out Okay
#62
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
No one ever intends on causing a midair. Sometimes things happen that increase the chances, but still there in no intent on causing a crash. It takes two to cause a midair and no matter what you are doing there is no fault. Both parties had the opportunity to move into clear air space or call "low fly bye". Don't worry about it. You were both sorry about the incident and respectable to each other. That's all you can do.
#63
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
No-one owns the air. When two objects try to occupy the same airspace something has to give. I have been involved in one mid-air and it was just a scrape, thank goodness, but was unavoidable. Too bad for both of you. Move on.
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
While on the subject, this past weekend at our field my buddy bought a plane for 300.00 off a guy. The guy brought the plane to the field to fly for the first time. After being airborne for about 10 mins, the plane starts going crazy, and crashs in the corn field. While the NTSB was out in the corn field reviewing the damage, a keen observation was made. While my buddy had placed his card in the frequency board and was flying another member showed up at the opposite end of the field.
The other member never bothered to check the board, and was doing a range check on his plane prior to flight. Too bad he was on the same channel as my buddy was. Needless to say he gave my buddy 300.00 on the spot, many wouldn't have bothered.
The other member never bothered to check the board, and was doing a range check on his plane prior to flight. Too bad he was on the same channel as my buddy was. Needless to say he gave my buddy 300.00 on the spot, many wouldn't have bothered.
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
Absolutely no fault by either flyer. I had my second midair in over 20 years of flying about 2 weeks ago, my Funtana X50 and another friends Twist met right wing to right wing nearly head on and we just laughed about it. If I dumb thumb it, shame on me. If I have an equipment failure, well then I do get a bit pissed unless I led to the failure. But when I have a mid air, well, it is just part of the accepted risk when more then one person is flying at one time.
And I had another guy out there watching me fly, niether of us had a CLUE that the Twist was coming so I do not belive that a spotter will do much good, nor is it in any way practicle unless you are taking part in a Fun Fly where it is normally mandatory.
My 2c.
And I had another guy out there watching me fly, niether of us had a CLUE that the Twist was coming so I do not belive that a spotter will do much good, nor is it in any way practicle unless you are taking part in a Fun Fly where it is normally mandatory.
My 2c.
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
In my opinion if someone violated club rules they are at fault. If nobody did then both flyers are at fault for having 2 planes flying at once. Even the best flyers can make mistakes. Bad Luck can happen to anybody even pro flyers. People when they want to fly they tend to think if they go up they'll be careful, nothing will happen. When someone goes up when someone else is up knows the risk of mid - air crash. It's just common sense. It's like "If your plane is heading for the ground, it's gonna hit the ground" Either that or its lack of communication between you and the other flyer.
#69
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
Looks like the majority thinks no one was at fault. I feel the same way, FWIW. You flies your plane, you takes your chances. Someone back a page or two thought that "employing a spotter" was a bit extreme. Well, maybe 'paying' a spotter might be a bit much, 'using' a spotter is part and parcel one of the best preventions possible for mid-airs. When you're flying, your complete attention is (and should be) on YOUR plane and what you're doing with it. The spotter's only job is to watch out for other planes and their location and to warn his pilot when there's a conflict brewing over being in the same spot at the same time; allowing the pilot to make the decision of where to go to stay out of harm's way., based on what he can't otherwise see.
Of course, the possibilities of collision multiply exponentially with the increasing number of planes in the air, and the individual pilot has to make his own decision whether his will make too many for safe flying (safe for HIM, as obviously, his concern will be for his own plane more than any other). Also, the pilot needs to consider WHAT is already flying, in terms of whether they are just trainer types flying the pattern, 3-D'ers doing their thing, or warbirds doing low, fast passes, etc, and then deciding if his own flying style will 'disturb the mix'. I think the "Yugo at Daytona" analogy was apt, much the same as riding a bicycle in a motorcycle race would be
If the scenario was such that I saw a bunch of trainers and/or pattern planes (bunch defined as 2 or more) already flying while I was prepping my big expensive (or not so big, and inexpensive) warbird for flight, I personally would be inclined to wait for somebody to land before flying my plane. Conversely, if I saw several warbirds mock dogfighting or just making fast passes and chandelles, I'd also hesitate to take up my 3-D plane and hover, or my pattern plane and practice my routine. If I was already flying and saw someone take off (my spotter told me so, plus the other pilot called out his intentions to take off), I'd probably land as soon as reasonable because A-- the other plane might become a hazard due to its different flying style, and B-- I'm not familiar with the other pilot's ability to stay out of the way, or C-- I AM familiar with the other pilot's ability to not stay out of the way.
It all boils down to making a choice based on experience, or lack therof, and then accepting whatever happens later without saying it's the other guy's fault exclusively.
Of course, the possibilities of collision multiply exponentially with the increasing number of planes in the air, and the individual pilot has to make his own decision whether his will make too many for safe flying (safe for HIM, as obviously, his concern will be for his own plane more than any other). Also, the pilot needs to consider WHAT is already flying, in terms of whether they are just trainer types flying the pattern, 3-D'ers doing their thing, or warbirds doing low, fast passes, etc, and then deciding if his own flying style will 'disturb the mix'. I think the "Yugo at Daytona" analogy was apt, much the same as riding a bicycle in a motorcycle race would be
If the scenario was such that I saw a bunch of trainers and/or pattern planes (bunch defined as 2 or more) already flying while I was prepping my big expensive (or not so big, and inexpensive) warbird for flight, I personally would be inclined to wait for somebody to land before flying my plane. Conversely, if I saw several warbirds mock dogfighting or just making fast passes and chandelles, I'd also hesitate to take up my 3-D plane and hover, or my pattern plane and practice my routine. If I was already flying and saw someone take off (my spotter told me so, plus the other pilot called out his intentions to take off), I'd probably land as soon as reasonable because A-- the other plane might become a hazard due to its different flying style, and B-- I'm not familiar with the other pilot's ability to stay out of the way, or C-- I AM familiar with the other pilot's ability to not stay out of the way.
It all boils down to making a choice based on experience, or lack therof, and then accepting whatever happens later without saying it's the other guy's fault exclusively.
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
could you explain again exactly how the crash happened. My buddy and I have been trying to have a mid-air for some time now and we can't ever seem to get it right. Any tips on how not to have a mid-air would also be welcome. Thanks
#72
RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
We've a mid seventies lifetime flyer at our field who racked up his fourth life time mid air recently... no one wants to fly at same time with him now, cuz we claim he is after his ACE .
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
Sorry everyone, but I just have to throw in my .02 in the pot. There is one way and ONLY one way to avoid a mid air and that is to land before anyone else takes off. I don't care what the rules are and how many spotters you have. If there are two or more planes in the air at the same time, there is a chance of a mid air. It is going to happen at times and nothing you or anyone else can do is going to stop it. Sooner or later, two planes are going to meet. I have been flying since the 50s and I have seen my share of crashes and mid airs and I have had my own share of crashes and mid airs. I had 1 mid air the whole time I have been flying and neither one of us saw the other coming. We were flying head on with pattern planes and hit REALLY hard. neither one of us tried to blame the other. We were standing side by side when it happened and both of us were stunned. When we finally got it through our heads what had just happened we both had a good cry and then shook hands and both of us broke up in fits of laughing. We were sorry it happened and helped each other pick up the mess, but neither one of us even thought about blame. I feel just as sorry for the P-40 as I do for the Kaos. No one deserves to lose a plane in a mid air, but it is part of flying. It's going to happen and nothing you or anyone else does is going to change the law of averages. IT WILL HAPPEN! As to the man not being a club member and flying at the field, all I can say is -What the H*** has that got to do with anything. Now to those that are trying to lay some blame on someone, all I can say is - GET A LIFE......... No one is to blame in a mid air. It happens and that is a fact of life. That is not going to change and mid airs will always happen. The only thing that bothers me about this is the fact that the club members were not doing everything they could to make you feel welcome and to get you to join the club. As far as I can see, that is the ONLY thing that was wrong.
I'm sorry for your loss and also for the loss of the P-40, but placing blame is not only wrong, it is stupid and a wast of time. If flying off of dirt bothers you, then get a GOOD air filter and have at it, but if I were at a field and made to feel unwelcome, I would find another place to fly. I drive 40 miles to go fly and while I wish I had a place closer, I would rather drive 40 miles to a place where I felt welcome then fly at a close field and feel left out in the cold. Hope you never have another mid air and have a wonderful time. Sorry for your loss.
Ed
I'm sorry for your loss and also for the loss of the P-40, but placing blame is not only wrong, it is stupid and a wast of time. If flying off of dirt bothers you, then get a GOOD air filter and have at it, but if I were at a field and made to feel unwelcome, I would find another place to fly. I drive 40 miles to go fly and while I wish I had a place closer, I would rather drive 40 miles to a place where I felt welcome then fly at a close field and feel left out in the cold. Hope you never have another mid air and have a wonderful time. Sorry for your loss.
Ed
#75
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RE: Mid-air this weekend. Anyone to balme??
Mid-Airs occur. Its a simple fact if two planes are flying at the same time, they can and may impact each other . When I raced Q-500 pylons, it happened a few times (but you couldn't do it if you were really trying). A couple of years again, a mid-air happened at my club - the pilot of the plane that was hit (OK- cut in half) said the other pilot did it on purpose. But the fact was that both planes were on the outside edge of the pattern (at least 100-150 yards away). Basically, sorry it happened, but the matter was dropped when cooler heads that witnessed it were able to talk to the pilot. THe pilot that hit the other did say he was sorry, but no one expected him to pay for the destroyed plane. As many have said, there cannot be anyone at fault from the first post. Just look at the RC combat pilots that can't even hit a ribbon during a match, and they are in close. Kaos guy - keep flying and have fun.