bbbair

I was watching one of our instructors take up a student – all was well, the plane worked great and the student was having a good time.

After a while the instructor called a dead stick and brought the plane in nicely – No Problems. As they were discussing the flight, I asked what had happened? []

”Ran out of fuel.”
“OH, don’t you have a timer?” say I.
“Nope”
“No Problem, here you can borrow mine.” (I’m very helpful)
Just to be sure, I showed them how to use it and set it for 10 minutes.

So up they go on their second flight, knowing the instructor as I do… I walk up and look at the timer… and I reach over and … PRESS THE BUTTON.

My duty is done, I return to my seat to watch. Another great flight (for a student).

After a while I hear a DEAD STICK being called… [X(]

As they are walking in again, I asked; “What Happened?” []

“Ran out of Fuel.” Said the instructor.

“Didn’t the timer go off?”

“Yeah, but I thought we still had a few more minutes.” [X(][:@] Says the instructor…

It’s enough to make you cry…

mjfrederick

I usually just wait for my engine to burp... then land... never used a timer in my life...

sscherin

My Feedback: (1)

My step sons eagle will fly for 20 minutes.. After a few flights my back tells me when to land.

jetmech05

the student is having a good time!!!! the instructor is having a good time!!!!!no one is in any danger.....the plane is fine...
leave em alone

The Raven

I always use a timer on my planes and occaisonally push it a bit longer, however; it all depends on the plane and how much fun I'm having in proportion to how difficult the landing will be.

As for instructing, many students haven't mastered their TX timers yet and I'm reluctant to push them into fiddling more than they need to with the TX.

The problem with relying on a timer whilst instructing is that the student is often flying at a much lower throttle setting than what most 'normal' solo'd pilots would. This *could* lead a student to get a false impression about that planes duration, particularly once they are solo'd and get used to flying with more gusto.

For me, it's not a big deal when instructing. I want the student to focus on their flying. If they've had enough for one lesson, I ask them to tell me. If not, we'll fly until I believe they've had enough from that lesson. Not having a timer leaves it pretty open for either person to call it quits and, if the flight goes full duration a deadstick landing is worth demonstrating/teaching.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

No one is in danger? I'm surprized with you Jetmech. If you were flying in what I was flying in last weekend, a deadstick would have put that plane in a location that prehaps is not very favorable for recovery.. like in the woods or swamp. Or if the wind was headed in the opposite direction, maybe it would have been over the pits area. Not everyone has your abilities.

Intentional dead sticks don't sound like very good advice for a new student nor does it sound like a good habit for anyone to get into. But, that's my personal opinion. I prefer to land with a little fuel in the engine, at least enough to get me on the ground, but that's just me. I don't particularly want to chase my plane any more than I really have to, nor do I want to pay for smacking someone's care, or worse, escort someone to the hospital.

The Raven

I see your point CGRetired but given that most students are flying trainers (or at least should be) they have to be the easiest class of aircraft to deadstick land. As for intentional deadsticks, you pick the time and place for them just as you would choose whether the student is up to it or whether the instructor should take over.

The other weekend the wind was incredibly gusty here. I made it clear to most students I wouldn't take them up as I was not comfortable with teaching in such conditions. Later the wind dropped to something more reasonable at which point I only took students who had buddy cords (giving me a quicker response time). Given those conditions I didn't stretched flights out or tried instructing deadsticks.

It's all a case of being in a position where the instructor is confident a dead stick is not going to be a major issue. For my instructing, I would prefer the student use a timer but I'm not going to distract them with it if they don't know how to operate it. The few students I'm teaching tend to fade in concentration well before the fuel tank does....the more advanced students generally know when the fuel is near exhausted.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

I"m not talkikng about an instructor, but the instructor should have known better. In my opinion, it's not good to teach bad practices like that. Teaching dead sticks is one thing, and is a good thing. But, teaching (and that's exactly what was going on here regardless if that's what he intended or not) that running a plane till the tank runs dry is a not good.

I really wish I had that magic touch to be able to pick the time and place for dead sticks. Seems to me they have all happened to me at the most inopportune time.. like when just finishing a hammerhead (stall turn) at the end 'of the box' on the right side when I can just about see the direction the plane is headed, other than straight down. Recovery and safe landing are paramount at that point, but that is far from an ideal standpoint when it comes to recovery followed by a safe landing. Fortunately, on that particular occasion, I was already downwind, unfortunately when recovery started I was headed downwind and away. I had to turn it around, glide it in, and land it. Again, I was fortunate to have a 9 pound plane with good glide characteristics, and a pretty good head wind. I managed to land it on the runway, but at the far right hand side of the runway. All I had to do was walk.

Just think that if our runway was only 500 feet long instead of 3000 feet long, where I would have been... perhaps in the swamp or the woods as I originally suggested. And that dead-stick was with a half tank of fuel remaining in the plane. It quit because the glow plug decided to go cold on me. Perhaps the mixture was a tad to lean at the beginning of the stall turn, and headed straight up was the final straw for that particular flight and the engine just quit. I did not plan it, it just happened. Not the same thing as intentionally running the engine until the tank goes dry. Try that with the same situation as me, but on the opposite end of the field. There is no way that plane would land safely, and I don't care who was at the controls.

Insanemoondoggie

CGR, do you really have a 3000 ft runway ? You are soooooo lucky.
Our field has a piece of papermill conveyor belt 12 ft wide and about 100ft long stapled to a very bumpy hill. Well it goes uphill on the north end anyway. The runway runs north and south , and there is about 250 ft open space , then it`s 8 ft tall corn.
So we don`t encourage dead sticks . but do have them practice distance, in case they do have a deadstick. Whether they can make it back or would they be better off with a controlled landing in the corn. And never take your eye off the spot, tell you have made some land mark references. But we never kill the engines, that happens often enough on it`s own.
This has been an interesting flying season to say the least. Had some moisture / fuel problems a couple of weeks ago. And practiced a few corn landings . No damage to the planes , so I think I got it down pretty good.LOL

nobodytwo

Most students can concentrate for about 10 - 15 minutes at a time, after their brains get "mushy". At our club, student's have 4 X 15 minutes or 6 X 10 minutes sessions. Older beginners use the 10 minute sessions and the younger one can usually tolerate 15 minute lessions.
Running out of fuel just places more stress on a student who is already pushing to learn.

It's when you are in the presence of other flyers, who are in the air, that the practice of having a deadstick for every landing means they get "priority" to the strip. Just a little inconsiderate, don't you think?

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Yup, Moondoggie. Actually, we have 3700 feet of runway. It's a NJ Department of Forestry field. They use it to re-tank their fire fighting air tractors there. They let us use it. It's generally available to us all year except for when they are actually fighting a forest fire in the area.. yeah, Ok.. ok.. New Jersey. I read your mind.. ha.. we live in the NJ Pine Barons. Central and South New Jersey are actually farmland and forests.

I've included a picture of our field.

Regarding the dead sticks, you do exactly what I was talking about. There has to be some training for dead-stick landings, and I don't mean shutting down engines. The obvious exceptions are such things as fun-fly events where we do a climb and glide or for SAM (Society of Antique Models) or Glider days. But, those are controlled events and not something that is unexpected yet encouraged. Not good, in my opinion.

I had my problem months with that darned EVO 100 that was on my Excelleron 90. Every flight I tried would result in a dead stick, but that was after thinking that I had the problem fixed, and was not intentional. The OS 1.20 AX fixed that problem..

CGr

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Absolutely my point.. among others. When I was learning, I limited myself to 3 10 minute flights two times a week, mainly because I was getting brain-overloaded at the beginning, but there were other people that wanted to fly and were somewhat unwilling to fly while I was all over the sky.. [:@] and I fully understand that, so I limited my time in the air for those first few weeks until I was able to keep it where I wanted to keep it. I also wanted to allow my instructor, a Pattern Flyer, to have time to himself to practice his pattern sequences, which I considered important to him, so it was important to me.

Dead stick approaches, as part of training is done at minimum throttle and is similar to a touch and go without the touch.. just the approach and go-around. Once proficiency is gained, the landing comes in, but the throttle remains at minimum unless problems develop on the approach. No shutting engines down intentionally, or running out of fuel because of lost time. I set my timer and when it beeps, you can bet that I am yelling "Landing" and coming in, of course, following protocol if there is someone up in the air. If no on is in the air, then I just land it and shut down.

Anyway, enough on that.

CGr

waydown2low

CG, dang, what a party pooper! If everyone was as worried about crashing into the pits as you are there would be no one airborn. If someone is coming towards the pits I would suggest the duck and cover method it keeps things exciting and keeps you on your toes Running out of fuel with a trainer is not a problem, if the instructor is doing his job. The plane should always be in gliding distance when instructing no matter the wind, terrain, or whatever else mother nature puts in our way. Instructing takes alot of time to do, so every second of time in the air is important, we ran out of fuel twice this weekend instructing as well, and if the instructor can't fly well enough to be competent at dead sticks, he needs to stick to flying himself only. Being over cautious is a bad thing as well, a pilot can be to nervous to ever make that trasition over the hump and never become a better pilot. I don't preach that safety is bad, but to much is bad as well! It is a hobby have fun at it and remember not everyone is flying at AMA fields.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Worried? I'm not worried about it in normal situations, but you were not standing there when a Tiger 60 came straight down from about 150 feet above and hit the ground, full throttle, IN THE PITS, about 10 feet away, either. That was from loss of control. We think it was from a bad battery or a battery that quit in flight. Deadsticks happen and can happen at the most inopportune time and place. And allowing it to happen because a pilot allowed the fuel tank to run dry is what I am talking about.

There are a lot of fields that don't have the room we have at our field, and yet it happened at our field, as I'm sure it has at others. It's just a bad practice, and a bad training technique for an instructor to use.

"With the plane always in gliding distance..." ?? You mean that you actually fly all your flights upwind so that you can glide to land in case you run out of fuel? I seriously doubt it. How about just doing the standard circuit and landing before it runs out of fuel? How about that?

The point is NOT that the plane ran out of fuel, it is because the Instructor ALLOWED it to happen without obvious concern. I've never... read my lips.. never ran out of fuel. Never. I've had a few dead sticks, but not because I let the thing run out of fuel.

Hey, I have a pretty good sense of humor most of time, and I am pretty laid back with most things, but there is one thing that everyone should practice and that's safety.

Party pooper? I certainly hope so when it comes to safety issues. This is not the worse safety issue that there could be, but it is one and should be addressed by the instructor.

Remember that chain of events that led to the accident. That silly accident that really should not have happened. The one link in that chain that could have been broken, resulting in the accident not happening is the link that perhaps he should have landed it before it ran out of fuel and he lost control of it during an attempted dead stick landing. Hypothetical situation, but it could and probably has happened.

jetmech05

if you have a student up and you go dead stick,,,its up to the instructor who flies the plane, based on the students ability and progress towards solo... regardless who is actually actuating the sticks it's still on the instructor to bring the plane down safely. now I never said anything about intentional dead sticks, but dead sticks happen and when they do your missing the boat if you don't use them as a teaching tool.
an instructor should handle a dead stick without harming someone..
as far as flying in a wind I always make sure there is fuel in the tank and start shooting approaches early, If it's that windy I won't take a student up. no one said anything in the original post about weather.
Oh and by the way I don't dead stick with a student. but I don't believe a bystander should reach into an instructors transmitter either,even if it was to turn on a timer.
My point is to let the teacher teach his way..it may not be your way..but the goal here is to make a safe qualified pilot

The Raven

Ultimately there appears to be some sort of consensus that we shouldn't intentionally be dead sticking planes on a regular basis, for all sorts of reasons relating to the surroundings, other fliers, students skill, the normal risks associated with such etc etc.

I don't intentionally dead stick planes but then I don't worry too much about the timer when teaching students. As I said earlier, it's one less distraction for them AND something I should be watching for as an instructor. For example, I don't let students practice approaches/landings/takeoffs if I think they are almost out of fuel. Having it dead stick as they climb out isn't a good idea.

As for timers, more people should be using them. It surprises me that many don't have a clue how to use them. I always reset my 'total time' each day and always set my 'count down' timer every flight. It's easy, informative, and a reminder of what I'm doing (even if it is to ensure I don't hog the airspace).

Flak

My Feedback: (1)

Hey, does that deadstick instructor have blonde hair? Actually, there is nothing wrong with learning what to do and how to properly land a dead stick aircraft. Have fun. Like I always say, "Once in the air, enjoy your twenty minutes"!

waydown2low

No I wasn't there but I've been hit by two planes, one as a spotter for a pilot at a pattern contest when I jumped in front of a out of control plane to protect my pilot from the plane. The other plane was a 30% extra that the pilot lost control of on takeoff and I was in the pilots box flying. I've had a 60 size extra 260 go 5 foot by my head rolling out of control and smash into the back of a pickup, great entertainment if you ask me, I crashed my own plane while watching that one, but well worth the loss. And as far as flying a downwind leg that allows me to always reach the runway while instructing you bet your butt. After probably 500 deadstick landings in 16 years and never scratching a plane, I would say that speaks for itself. I know some have more skill than others and I'm getting older and slower but I still know how to keep a plane where it needs to be to keep it and everyone as safe as possible.

I have been doing this for a long time and have hundreds of hours flying the dang things, but I get tired of people preaching safety while sitting on the bench yelling at the 3-d guys having fun and only risking their own plane. The guys that preach need to fly or go home and retire!!!!!!!! There is a flight line that should not ever be crossed at any time which is usually the runway all flying should be done runway out and the air is open!! Fly how you want, when you want, give right of away to incoming and outgoing aircraft only, as far as taking the runway when your dead stick, I could care less if I'm dead stick, whatever your doing I will avoid you, don't need special treatment plane flys fine without engine!! I will give way to other aircraft when their deadstick for curtesy and don't care how many deadstick landings they do, don't bother me if I have to land, I will!!

I learned to fly at a club in Norman Oklahoma that when I started it was a fun place to be. Lots of the old men quit flying and started bench flying. If you did a low pass down the runway with no one else flying they would jump your back threaten you and a bunch of other BS. If I knew what I know now I would have kicked everyone one of their old butts off the bench!! The flying went from 60 active flyers to about ten in less than a year cause no one wanted to listen to them. The funny thing about the guys preaching is that when they do fly it is generaly a hazard to everyone around and most people land themselves to watch the excitement. And even funnier is that they will not accept advice from anyone and if they crash it is usually a glitch!!

I don't want to battle with you CG, its just that about every post you do on a new topic you mention something about endangering other people or their planes or AMA safety codes. In the words of the ever knowledgable FORREST GUMP "SH%T HAPPENS" So just let it happen and enjoy the show! Deep down inside you know you like carnage or you would not be in this forum, if you watch NASCAR I know you don't sit there for 4 hours to see who wins, you want to see metal explode, I do like the sound of exploding balsa in the morning, I won't lie! You don't get many chears from flying a perfect routine, but you will get them if you fly the thing into the ground, its what people want to see, we just try not to give them what they want. Teach, don't preach thats what I do, I teach students what to do properly and what they can have fun at and when. There is a time and place for everything so use it wisely. I personly try not to break any rules since I am setting a example for the students and kids, but I don't suggest stuff to other pilots unless they are really unsafe and when I do it is in private as not to embarrase the party involved. Just relax and have fun!

Good luck CGR don't become a bench flyer, keep them in the air!!

If you can't see it, don't hand me the controls!!

Insanemoondoggie

CGR , Myself and several others , have been around the real deal most out lives . We do not take safety issues lightly , because we have seen and lived with the results first hand.
I didnt see anyone flame you for having a opinion , please show the same courtesy , that you expect.

waydown2low

WOO HOO every has one and that was mine ENJOY!!! AND I HAVE BEEN IN IT SINCE DIAPER RASH! NOT A BASH JUST LETTING PEOPLE KNOW WE GET IT, JUST RELAX!!!!!

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry guys. If it appeared as I flamed, then sorry for that. I didn't intend to. I just get a tad bit overboard when it comes to safety issues. We're cool, ok?

CGr.

jetmech05

Of topic here sorry everyone,,,CGR remember me telling you that my middle daughter was going Coast Guard? She has 2 weeks left in Cape May. then shes going to North Carolina where she starts dropping requests for OCS
Again my apologies to everyone else for being off topic

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Hey Jetmech. No issue at all with that. I appoligize for being a tad bit overzealous here. I guess we all tend to do that once in a while.

Regarding your Daughter. Congratulations to her. I really hope she makes it to OCS. I'm sure she will quickly realize the differences, both positive and negative (mostly positive I must add). Where in North Carolia is she going? I have some friends at Elizabeth City as well as at a station on the outer banks, and a few retired buddies that ended up settlling down that way.

Thanks for not getting on my case, and thanks to Moondoggie for pointing it out to me.

CGr.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Just a small point here, Waydown. Yes, I preach safety but I don't do it in every post Probably every other.

But, is there something wrong with that? I may not have been flying since diaper rash, but I've been around aircraft for a good part of my life and have seen the small things cause serious problems.

I saw two real life Navy A7's mid air and explode right in front of me. It happened because of an error in judgement. Yeah, I know, stuff happens, but it could have been prevented. And, that's my only point. It can be prevented. Usually by someone doing something simple like just landing the plane before it runs out of fuel, or that inexperienced RC'er not making that low level inverted high speed pass over the runway centerline.

I have my share of busted balsa and most of it because of doing something that perhaps I should not have done with my level of experience. No one knows better than the person doing the flying.

That's it. Let's just fly 'em, but keep 'em safe.

CGr

Insanemoondoggie

That was relaxed .LOL