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Brushless Draganflyer?

Old 12-12-2006, 03:05 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hammer,

I see that on your pics, there are 2 different machines (a small one and a big one).

What are technical differencies (payload capacities ; flying time ; etc.) between both machines ?

Will they be both for sale in january or only one of them ?

Thanks and congratulations !!

Very impressive.

Renaud
Old 12-12-2006, 04:34 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Jast, all the videos were great! I was hoping to see some outdoor AP video at the end of that last one after the indoor AP video. Do you have an outdoor AP video to show? Thanks.
Old 12-12-2006, 04:38 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!
ORIGINAL: TheHindmost
Hammer or Jast will correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what they've described, the basic modified x-ufo replaces the stock mechanical gyro (which allows TI-enabled-like flight, even indoors, but with significant limitations) with a set of piezo gyros similar to those used on the DF. This allows the modified x-ufo to to achieve extreme attitudes while remaining stable, but the flight characteristics are similar to a DF without TI: there is no self-leveling.
Actually I'd like to make clear, that Hammer has nothing to do with the X-3D or the brushless kits. He's doing mechanical frames and uses the X-3D as customer.

Back to the topic: The X-3D has something in between called three axis Heading Hold. It uses only piezo gyros (much smaller and better one then DF) to hold it's level
but it really holds it even if you disturb it. So more enhanced then DF without TI, but still without TI. Sure, it's nothing you can rely on as a camera platform but that is not the application of the X-3D (and Brushless) atm.

So what would be a good solution to have a self leveling feature without TI and its disadvantages (only outdoor, calibration problems, problems with sudden heat changes)?

The X-Ufo was based on a quadrocopter build for the german youth science competition called "Jugend forscht". This quadrocopter did a self-leveling with acceleration sensors and gyroscopes and a sensor data dusion simelar to a Kalman filter. This technology is what we (our team) uses privatly for self leveling UFOs. So it's there and working, but not yet in series production...

Regards

Jast
Old 12-12-2006, 04:48 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Jast,

sorry...english is not my language...

But if i understand well what you said, is the future X-3D brushless UFO NOT made for aerial photography ?

Do you mean it won't be in competition with draganflyer SAVS, regarding aerial photography activity and capacities ?

Old 12-12-2006, 04:50 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!

ORIGINAL: Sky High
Jast, all the videos were great! I was hoping to see some outdoor AP video at the end of that last one after the indoor AP video. Do you have an outdoor AP video to show? Thanks.
Sure. We did some outdoor AP videos, but this is not the recommended application for the X-3D brushless. It's not save to put a few 100$ cam ontop of the UFO as you can not
100% be sure that you always able to steer it back to a stable position if you can not see it very good.

In this video you can see some onboard outdoor scenes. Please note that the camera with the onboard scenes was just mounted with cable ties.
No mechanical anti-vibration system. Can you see vibrations? And even with a big 300g camera you still can fly up to 20 minutes. The picture at the end are 5MP still pictures.

http://www.erop.de/bl-ufo_kamerafluege.wmv

Regards
Jast
Old 12-12-2006, 04:55 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!

ORIGINAL: reno.24
But if i understand well what you said, is the future X-3D brushless UFO NOT made for aerial photography ?
So it won't be in competition with draganflyer SAVS, regarding aerial photography activity and capacities ?
Yes, it't not meant for aerial photography although it's capable of it as long as you stay in a sufficient visual range.
And it's also a fraction of the price of the SAVS system, but with a lot of more power, efficiency and safety.

Jast
Old 12-12-2006, 05:00 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

It's exactly what i wanted to hear from you Jast...

Very impressive machine...and if it's possible to use it for LOW aerial video/photography (even if it's not its first application, regarding its specifications), i am a happy man !!!

Old 12-12-2006, 04:56 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

You keep comparing the price of the X-3D with no video to the DF SAVS with its expensive video system. The DF by itself is $750. Will the X_3D be cheaper?
Old 12-12-2006, 07:10 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!

The X-3D is only the gyro module. It's 180EUR atm. The prices for the brushless kit are not fixed yet. It's also a modular kit. First you can replace the X-Ufo Mainboard with the new one and the X-3D. As the used FETs on the new mainboard are more powerful and the controller settings can be adapted via the USB interface, you even could replace your DF electronics with the mainboard and the X-3D.

The four brushless controllers and motors are the next step and can simply be connected the mainboard and you get a thrust/weight ratio of 4:1 :-)

Jast
Old 12-13-2006, 02:41 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Guten tag Jast,


A question from a novice : will your new X-3D brushless UFO be easier or more difficult to fly (for beginners like me) than the Draganflyer SAVS ?


And last question : will you commercialize the camera mount (wich is just under the X-3D UFO) we can see on your outdoor video (cnfr your link) ?

If no, are you thinking about creating a special camera mount in the future (even if aerial video/photography is not the first application for the X-3D brushless UFO).... or is it pure science fiction ?

Seriously, i think that a lot of people would be VERY VERY interrested if it was possible to buy this kind of camera mount with your new X-3D brushless UFO, in place of building one by themselves.

Thanks.
Old 12-13-2006, 05:34 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!

A question from a novice : will your new X-3D brushless UFO be easier or more difficult to fly (for beginners like me) than the Draganflyer SAVS ?
I did fly the DF5 without TI twice. And from my experience it's a lot harder to fly the DF. The UFO (also without brushless) is much more precise and seems to be a lot faster in response then the DF.

And last question : will you commercialize the camera mount (wich is just under the X-3D UFO) we can see on your outdoor video (cnfr your link) ?
If no, are you thinking about creating a special camera mount in the future (even if aerial video/photography is not the first application for the X-3D brushless UFO).... or is it pure science fiction ?
Seriously, i think that a lot of people would be VERY VERY interrested if it was possible to buy this kind of camera mount with your new X-3D brushless UFO, in place of building one by themselves.
At the moment it's not planed to support camera applications. We will probably release a more intelligent version of the X-3D later in 2007 which is meant for aerial photography and then of course all the tools you need, like tilt compensated camera platforms and so on...

Jast
Old 12-13-2006, 05:40 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Wow....[X(]

Absolutly interesting !!

Good work Jast.

Old 12-13-2006, 06:18 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Can the new X-3D brushless UFO be flown in windy conditions ?

If yes, maximum wind speed (to have still "easy" flight) ?
Old 12-13-2006, 06:50 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!

Sure. As the controller loop calculates 1000 times per second the orientation and rotational speeds of the UFO and corrects it if necessary the wind virtually disappears as long as the motors have enough power. I never measured the wind speed, but I'm normally more concerned about rain then about wind ;-)

Jast

Old 12-17-2006, 02:27 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Jast,

Don't hesitate to give us prices examples and news about your new platform....if there are.

Old 12-17-2006, 03:17 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Why do I think I am listening to an Infomercial here? Too funny... "Wow Jast, are you saying it slices and dices too!"
Old 12-17-2006, 04:41 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

VI360,

If you don't like this topic...no problem...

the door is just ------>



It's absolutly normal if some of us want to compare Draganflyer with other machines on the market.....especially if these new platforms seem to be very atractive, cheaper, and maybe better than Draganflyer.....

English is not my language....i do my best to translate my thoughts when i ask my questions to Jast and other people on this forum.....Just a question for you, VI360 : do you speak french like i try to speak english ??
Old 12-17-2006, 03:45 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Vous √™tes un comp√®re √©vident pour favoriser ce produit Allemand, si √©vident il est dr√īle.
Old 12-17-2006, 05:06 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

sorry, but your french is a disaster...

Babel fish is a very bad tool for translations you know...

Old 12-17-2006, 05:58 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

well maybe someday there might be a brushless update to the DF so we DF owners can have better lift and longer lasting motors. I have read else where though, that the brushless improvements are minimal. Does anyone at DF have input to this question?
Old 12-17-2006, 06:40 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!

Brushless in general gives you a lot more effiency. The motors are more reliable and don't need a gearbox. I only know the numbers for the X-Ufo: The normal X-Ufo weighs about 210g with brushed motors without the battery and has a maximum thrust of 380g. The flighttime is about 10 Minutes with a 3s 1Ah LiPo. The X-3D BL weighs also about 210g, but has 1.3kg thrust and is about 30% mor efficient then the normal X-Ufo whil hovering and flys about 15 Minutes with a 3s 1Ah LiPo. But the big advantage are the huge power reserves. You can attach a 2.5Ah battery and fly 40 Minutes, or a 150g digital camera and a 1.5Ah battery and still fly 15 Minutes. And everything with a lot of power left for the controller to stabilize the Ufo in every situation.

I guess that would be the same for the DF. But you need the special motor controllers to fly stable. Normal brushless ESCs in general are to slow for quadrocopters.

Jast
Old 12-17-2006, 07:08 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Yes, I read that before, you need controlers for brushless motors and the right motor for a quad copter. Are there any other down sides to going brushless besides higher costs for adding the controlers and higher motor costs? Thank you for the info!
Old 12-18-2006, 04:30 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!
ORIGINAL: vi360
Are there any other down sides to going brushless besides higher costs for adding the controlers and higher motor costs? Thank you for the info!
No. But I think the additional price is worth the advantages.

Jast
Old 12-18-2006, 11:39 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?


ORIGINAL: Hammer_DE

We now have finished our Big Brushless Quadrocopter Project.
It is airborne yet.

Our new Q4 / Race / BL / 50 is in original DraganFlyer Size.
You can use this Frame (without BL) for your Standard DF's also.

We use a Hybrid-Electronic (x-3D) and Standard Components, BL- Motors Robbe Roxxy or other.

Here is a pic and a video also, let me know what you think about this project.
(sorry for my bad english)

Link to the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GULe7VuR0rE
Hi,Hammer_DE

I'm really interested in buying your props to build my own XUFO .Do you intend to sell these props(the big one in the first picture)?I really need them indeed.
xufo-shop.de seems dont supply these big props ?
Old 12-19-2006, 03:32 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Good morning anthrax,

@first @all
I'm not a member of the X-3D Developers like Jast, i only design Concept-Quadrocopter-Frames and Parts and produce this projects with a professionell CNC Company in Germany.
xufo-shop.de dont supply the big props and the big Frames (i made this Frames for a DraganFlyer-Concept), they only sell some Parts of my Designs for the x-ufo in their shop.
(x-frames)

My last DF-Electronic is damaged, so this is the reason why i put a x-3d electronic in the big Frame, thats all.
(so you can see - all systems can fly with my concepts )
I develop Conceptframes for Quadrocopters, which can be used with all different Elektronic-systems, (DraganFlyer, x-3D, x-ufo, intellicopter and so on).

@anthrax
The Big CF-Props are not 100% efficient yet, they are prototypes and not ready at all, if you need Props very quick, i would say, go to www.rctoys.com and buy the new black DF-Props,
this Props are very good and cheap.

Greetz
Hammer

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