J-MICHAEL

Broggyr ~

I think Dave (Choppersrule), or Vic (Crashcrash) might have the answer to that. I thought Vic had the answer to that awhile back, but can't remember... I know your a resident of the King V2 tuner shop, so just P.M. him and see if ya can't find a source...

~ Jeff

RMG2

URI, good story bud'! Would have sucked to crash your heli that quickly right after getting it flying again!

UTM

Yeah it was like a magic heli portal or something. My Falcon dissapeared into one side of this great big tree and I caught glimpses of it passing through and then it came out the other side rotors still spinning and right side up. Was something to see for sure Wish I could say it was good piloting skills. If I hadn't hit throttle hold it would have hit. Just got lucky really. I agree though. I would not have been happy to crash into that tree after just getting it back to full force. I mentally prepared myself for a crash if I tried the loop but the tree would have been a bummer.

Uri

soloboss

Hey Gene! 100+ pages and Broggyr got the 2500th post. Who'd a thunk it?? When I made the first post I was just frustrated and figured that everyone was getting this whole helicopter thing but me. How wrong can one guy get? But I'll tell you that following this group (The Collective,as we used to be) through the trials and tribulations has been great. There is always someone moving forward and someone dropping back to regroup. I may go back to the airplane for a bit to get my orientation back. Even my smallest plane can do that at walking pace can teach orientation.

Xyster - great Paint, Max! I LIKE it! It's not John Deere or Caterpillar, but purple is good. Actually anything is good as long as you can see it. And differing paint schemes on opposite sides? I don't know that I would have thought of that. Or perhaps I would have thought of it AFTER I spent hours trying to exactly duplicate the Starboard pattern on the Port side.

One more comment about the Struggling thread. I couldn't be any more happy with the collection of friends on this thread. With such a combination of stories and reports and successes and failures and good humor - and it's all written in a way that anyone can read. It's about as good as it gets.

I'm charging batteries - gotta go fly something.
Tomorrow at the Flying Circuits grounds east of New Haven, IN there is a Steam tractor show on the grounds and the RC guys will have airplane demos going all day. That's good fun as there are all sorts of really great planes out there. The whole helicopter thing is growing and I hope to see more presence at the show this year. It's a good thing there is a lot of room out there. A collision between an RC plane and a steam tractor isn't much of a contest. Like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Green lights on the charger. Gotta go!

broggyr

Now, if we could all get together for a fun fly...

soloboss

If that's your house hanging under the helicopter on your avatar, you seem to be pretty portable. Pick somewhere in the middle and we'll all meet there.

soloboss

Actually, Fort Wayne IN, and Indianapolis IN, and Terre Haute IN, and Greenwood IN and Columbus OH arent' that far apart.

ELECTRIC FLY IN at AMA Muncie,IN

ELECTRIC FLY IN at AMA IAC Muncie,IN
No landing fees or registration will be charged!!
Event dates are SEPT 5, 6 & 7, 2008
site Muncie,IN AMA
International Aeromodeling Center

NEFI (Electric)
National Electric Fly In
Class C Fly-Inn
Location: Site - 3 AMA IAC Muncie In.
CD: Dr. Sandy Frank
Phone: 817-791-6079
E-mail: [email protected]
http://web2.airmail.net/sfrank69/

Best regards,

Dr.Sandy Frank

Oracus

Your right its not really that far away. I work in Rockville, IN 40mins or so away from Indy and I have family I try to visit regularly In Dayton and Columbus, OH. It would be great to get together if the chance comes up.

broggyr

It's still a long walk from CT...

As far as my house goes, all I can say is "Helicopters is handy!"

RMG2

Lot's of new stuff being debuted at the 2008 IRCHA Jamboree (on right now). Of interest to those who might read this thread is the new Thunder Tiger Innovator! The Innovator is a 450-class heli that is 100% integrated. Meaning the entire heli, including the TX and battery all assemble together as an overall working unit. One key feature is programmable flight characteristics all done with your PC, not in the TX. This new heli boast extreme stability, yet maintains 3D maneuverability. Will be interesting to see if there is a market for such a beast considering no component options can be changed by the owner???

The stability of the heli displayed in these debut videos make the new Innovator look to be a good first 450-class heli for beginners, or those "struggling with single rotor basics", yet 3D capable as the learning pilot improves!

What do you guys think???

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/r...ies/IRCHA2008/

soloboss

Randy,
That was a great demo. Of course a good pilot can make a dorky helicopter look good, but I have yet to see anyone at my LHS reach out and pluck a 450 class out of the air with one hand while flying with the other hand. And it's demonstrated as an entry level 450 for those with little helicopter experience or perhaps plank only experience. If this is all straight up good info, I'm impressed and may well find myself on the list of buyers.
I entered this hobby to learn what all those neat little bits do in the CP head. I understand the mechanics - the mystery is over. Now I wanna fly. I don't want to break it, I want to fly it. If it has built in 'cheats' I'm OK with that. I have no desire to build a custom hotrod, I don't buy motorcycles to customize, and I'd be happy to get a helicopter of that size that will go to work looking and flying scale. I like the full body. IF, If, if I decide to move into the performance / 3D parts of this hobby, it sounds like the helicopter is capable of upgrades. How cool is that??

I have read many accounts of guys adding a better gyro rather than learning to fly the tail. We get a programmable Tx rather than learn to fly better. At what point do the built in 'cheats' diminish the hobby? For the flier lacking experience, the flier who has lost the edge due to loss of dexterity or has developed vision challenges, those who want to learn to fly really tight patterns and are more about pattern than machine, those on the way up gaining confidence without draining the bank account, this may be just the hot item.

I'll certainly be interested in reading OP/ED posts about this one. It looks like it's made for me, at my skill level and my preferred level of dedication to the sport / hobby.

Soloboss

gene465

My Feedback: (10)

Randy, My name might be on that list right behind Mark's! lol Seems to be a very stable little bird. Very nice Demo! Look forward to seeing pics of the inside and rotor head on that one! Gene

RMG2

Yes Solo, it will be interesting to see how the Innovator pans-out in the hands of average skill folks. I like the scale body too. Would be a neat back yard flyer to entertain guest at a Bar-B-Q! [8D]

If it flys as stable as it looks it would be an excellent first single rotor heli!

Seeing this thing makes me wonder what kind of technolgy in this hobby is right around the corner for us???


Gene, look here for a little more info.

http://www.innovator-rc.com/

stump3r

Well I think there is your winner of the perfect first single rotor. Sure takes alot of the mystery out of these damn things.
Pretty cool helicopter, I wanna fly one!

Bones27

The Innovator is definitely interesting. It has my curiosity up, although I'm not sure I like the all in one setup, I've never had good luck with anything that has all the functions built into one component. It always seems like one function will quit working then you have to replace the entire unit instead of just replacing the function that quit working. I will check this thing out though as more info becomes available. I would like to know what the initial cost is for the package and the cost of the all in one control unit and the servo unit that has all 3 digital servos built into the same unit. How does that work? If you strip a servo gear can you rebuild it or do you have to replace the entire unit, that can't be cheap, 3 digital servos built into one unit? Several questions, but I do like the PC programmable interface and the ability to set it up for scale or 3D.

xyster101

I hit the big 10 crash. Had a BBQ at my house yesterday and I took out the copter for some flights. Well I have a small yard with lots of trees surrounding it so I wanted to show off some 3D. I went up pretty high to be out of the trees and did a loop semi nice. A little later on a second battery I tried a roll and the wind tipped it up and it finished over the trees and I could not see it. Then I did the worse thing ever, I panicked and cut the throttle but I was still in idle up so it came screaming through the trees[X(]. I hit the throttle hold and it landed on a chain link fence. Damage was not too bad, bent flybar, tail boom, main shaft and probably the feathering shaft too. Also broke both blade grip and exploded the canopy. It was toast, I just painted it too! []

As for that innovator helicopter, count me out. It has some good ideas on paper such as the ability to track battery voltage and temps, but it is a all-in-one disaster IMO. I used to work at Circuit City and everything all-in-one had issues, those VCR/DVD players, TV/DVD devices and monitor/computers that were one device. Sure they were simple to use and might be a hair cheaper then getting them separate, but if one part dies then the unit almost becomes useless. Due to this copter being proprietary with everything, you have to get their parts. They can charge what they want for a battery and you can not get a larger one or use your own charger from a different helicopter. The blade 400 came ready to fly yet almost everyone has upgraded the servos. How can anything be upgraded or changed on this one if it is a 3 servo combo unit? What if you strip a gear or one just goes bad? Look at that tx, it is awful. It has no screens to adjust anything. It looked stable in the demo, but my Blade 400 can be that stable with the expo turned up. Problem is when I tip it too far and have to correct for that, then being soft is no good. We all flew our CX's beyond their capabilities and if something went wrong we were already at 100% so we could not go to 110% to save it. I did not read anything saying how this unit was stable. No new technologies. I have heard about an infrared eye that a company is working on that will allow the helicopter to know where the ground and sky are to help keep it oriented correctly. Technologies like that can help us fly better. As Mark said they allow us to overcome our own lack of skills. I do agree they are short cuts for learning properly, but who has ABS in their car or stability control? These technologies allow the same thing to a driver. Sure you can drive better without these technologies but that requires time at a track or in a skid car to learn how to properly react to situations where these devices will help you. Putting "Safety" features into a RC copter only helps people progress a little faster in learning the an extremely difficult sport.

soloboss

Bones,
The points you make were also made on the Thunder Tiger forum. It seems that the initial response is about 99% negative. It seems that Thunder Tiger has some other upgrade product in the works, but this new toy superseded the upgrades and the boys are not happy.

Again from the TT forum, the Innovator is looked upon as a toy. Perhaps it is. I share your (probable) disdain for All-In-One "No user serviceable parts inside" system modules. Like you, I WANT to be able to replace gears if I toast a servo, replace a twisted link if I can't get it reshaped, get just a drive gear if I strip it. There are a lot of fragile parts in a helicopter, and judging by the number of replacement parts we all bought for our CX/CX2's, even a hover-trainer goof-proof helicopter will need significant repair. If the total cost of three crashes equals the cost of the helicopter, I'm not so sure about the whole package. When we start getting into proprietary parts like batteries, we know they have us over a barrel. The TX does not appear to be special, although it is a dedicated unit. If programming is handled via computer software, it will be a bother for the guys used to programmable Tx units. For the rest of us it should be fine. And if it is sold as an ARF unit, it must work with some Tx commonly available. Maybe Spektrum, maybe one of the other guys, but it is 2.4g.

We need real information from one of our own - someone who is a known commodity so we can judge our own abilities against our 'standard'.
We need suppliers like Stump3r and Michael to look into the cost of components.
If this turns out to be as good as some of us hope, I hope our favorite LHS picks up the line.
It sure sounds like a good start for a new flier, with the stability, size and weight of a 450 class. The low head speed will allow basic training with minimal danger and damage. The guys overseas will have less damage and a very standard parts list.

If it seems to good to be true, it probably is. Am I a bit excited about the Innovator? Yep. But my level of excitement is matched by my apprehension.

More information is good - KEEP DIGGING, GUYS! And find us a price.
Soloboss

soloboss

We do think a lot alike, Max. I'm apprehensive. Like you, I believe that the All-In-One is typically a rip and will ALWAYS perform at a lower level than component assemblies. But this is a new world and tech is always moving forward. Here are a couple of points to chat about;

1) I don't see that this product would offer anything to you or any of the guys who already fly beyond the Struggling level.
2) We also know that this helicopter has to be competitive. If it's junk, it won't sell. Thunder Tiger has probably put significant design time and engineering time into this and it's not their intent to loose money on it.
3) Repair cost must be 'worth it' to the buyer. It won't take long for the reputation of the unit to make its way across the forums and boards.
4) The programming will be done at the computer via a USB cable. For those of us without a programmable Tx, that could be just fine. But to be done at the field, we'll need a laptop. I sort of wanted a laptop anyhow. LOL
5) Proprietary stinks - but the Chinese have no regard for patent law. If this helicopter is a hit, there will be upgrade parts in mere months.

Sitting here having no idea what I'm talking about, I'm drawing a parallel between these helicopters and motorcycles / motor scooters. My friends and I talk about riding in terms of "envelope size". There is an envelope that describes the ultimate performance of the bike. There is another to define daily usage of the bike as an envelope. And yet another to describe each rider's personal capabilities.
A little table talk leads one to determine that the ultimate performance of the machine must, at the very least, match the daily usage of the rider. The ultimate performance of the bike need not meet the personal capability of the rider, although it's more fun if it does. And buying a bike with a performance envelope well beyond the ability of the rider can be disastrous!
For many, rather than a motorcycle with high-end performance, a motor scooter is perfectly acceptable. That scooter may meet the requirements for daily usage. It may also meet the personal capability of the rider. And if it meets the needs and capabilities of the rider, why would that rider need more? Of course the rider won't continue to grow, but that rider may be satisfied with his current ability.

And that's where I seem to be with helicopters. If the machine did a better job of controlling itself, I could better concentrate on orientation and holding to a concise pattern. As with the CX, there comes a time when orientation is second nature. Orientation is static. Patterns are just dynamic orientation exercises. We learn - we outgrow - we want more. Or perhaps we don't want more. I'm sure that with the basics of flight burned into my brain, I would be seeking more performance, just as I did with the coaxial. And a 450 size helicopter certainly should offer that opportunity as I revise the Expo.

I'm sure not disagreeing with you, Max. This is an interesting subject- how much help is good? How much help is too much? And at what cost? Anyhow, it's an interesting subject for table chat even if the heli is junk. My initial enthusiasm is being replace by curiosity. I'll admit to being REALLY curious about it.

Last time I looked IR horizon seeking autopilot was about $300 for the add-on.

I'm really sorry to hear that you busted up your helicopter. I've been there with the "Kill the throttle" routine when in idle up. There's not a lot of the canopy left. And it was a pretty canopy. Massive bummer.

Later buddy! I gotta go play. It's WONDERFUL out there.
Soloboss

xyster101

Mark,
I am eager to also see what this heli has to offer. If it is priced right ($200=$250) it might be a blast. It might also be aimed at a marked that would buy a CX2 or Lama. Someone who flies planes and wants to try a simple helicopter. Look at the market that Air Hogs has with those little 2 channel foamies and the 3 channel helicopter ($80). People want simple to fly but neat. I am sure the Honey Bee FP has been bought by a lot of people because of it's low price and then ended up on a shelf because it is very hard to fly. This innovator is not for me by any means, but it might be something for a beginner to get that does not cost $500, it will fly good out of the box, and it will teach orientation while staying in the air easier. It could also be something that is a pain to use with expensive batteries, software to interface with and parts that are hard to replace. Who knows. I think we all want to see it in action and hear some reviews. Same thing happened with the Blade 400. Everyone was comparing it to a T Rex and even though it was a great deal to get, people shot is down saying it was cheap, did not perform like a T rex and the servos were junk. We might have higher expectations for this comparing it to other helicopters where the market is more of a HBKII with the ease of a CX2 flight.

soloboss

I'm thinking you're spot on, Max. I forgot about the following that the Air Hogs had / have - which is funny because I have an Aero Ace sitting on my desk ready to go play later! At the current price of a CX2 with 2.4g gear, the new bird doesn't have to be cheap. But it is still a 450 class so the parts are gonna be big.


Oh - a quick 'Who'd a figured'. I got the Aero Ace out of the box and plugged it into the Tx to charge the Lipo. It wouldn't take a charge. It's been in the box for maybe a year and a half. I know I didn't fly it at all last summer - add a winter and this summer and there ya go. Anyhow, the Lipo was fully up and I got a 20 minute flight out of it. It took about 15 minutes to recharge and off it went for another flight. I had it over the top of the neighbor's two story, over the fully mature trees, then out across the river. I had a little trouble getting it to come home! It just wants to have fun I guess. Anyhow, I want lipos from whoever made the built in lipo in that Air Hog plane.

RMG2

All good and valid points my friends. Just like cars and boats, there is no perfect do-all RC heli. Like Solo touched on, there may be a market for the Innovator design and it certainly won't be the accomplished heli pilot, but rather those who are just learning single rotor. Yes, the heli wil have to prove itself as not only reliable, but also a good value to the buyer with regard to maintenance. Think about how much cash we dumped into our CX2's when we first started, and with out batting an eye! Time will tell, but no one can argue that having options is a good thing.

Bones27

RMG, well put! I do think the Innovator will have a spot in this hobby, I'm just not sure where yet, too many unanswered questions for me to draw a conclusion yet. It does make a good conversation topic though.

choppersrule

Kenn / Crusader23 / Short Timer,

Yikes! Forgot to mention.. It is somewhat larger than the Stock canopy. I used a couple strips of foam tape to snug the bottom of the canopy up with the bottom of the battery tray. I had to do this with the Trex canopy also. Two or three small strips will make it work very well, with no shaking or vibration of the canopy. Here's a picture for placement of the foam tape.

Dave / Choppersrule
================================================== =================================

choppersrule

Broggyr,

Here's one site for the 2.3 shafts. http://www.cnchelicopter.com/servlet...tor/Categories About 3/4 down the page.

I'm don't know what motor you have, but on thing to be aware of, is that the part of the shaft that sticks out of the motor is 2.3 mm and the internal part of the shaft, in the motor is 3.0 mm... Depends on the motor you have... Just an FYI. Also, if you are using the align pinion with grub screw, you may want to try putting it on upside down.

Just google. "2.3 mm shafts +replacement" don't use the quotes though.

Dave / Choppersrule

soloboss

The talk that makes the headlines for the Innovator is the stability, yet it's flown by corporate gunfighters. There's no proof there. My LHS guys fly new Blade CP's right out of the box - they fly them indoors in a small area that's barely 3 X 4 feet. And the Blade CP's look entirely stable.
Poking around I'm seeing very unofficial prices of $900 + Tx / Rx. If there is any truth to that they priced themselves out of my price range. Yes, I know about how much it will cost to buy and become proficient with a B400. Probably the $900 is not unreasonable.