Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Helicopters > Electric RC Helis > E-Flite Helicopters
Reload this Page >

Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Notices
E-Flite Helicopters Discuss the line of E-Flite mini and micro helis including the Blade CP, CP Pro, Blade CX, etc

Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Old 12-26-2007, 05:54 PM
  #1  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Dear Collective,
I had my fixed pitch single rotor ( hereafter called "FP" ) out again. I think this post could be for my heli as well as most small collective pitch helis, so it's not too far off eflight topic. I have the whirly parts properly balanced and the static balance of the heli is good. At hover with no wind it is very stable and flying a pack is not a problem with a couple of exceptions. Because of those 'exceptions' I am wondering if I am fighting myself or the heli. If it turns out I am fighting the heli, I may be a better flier than I currently credit myself with being.
For anyone reading this with any interest, I'm working with an Exeed RC Falcon 40 with Super Skids. It's the same as the Walkera #4 and EF Sabre. I am using the stock battery NiMH packs and I am satisfied with the performance.

OK, here goes:
I like to fly at about 4 feet up. A FP is challenging to hold at any altitude same as with the CX helis. Of course when I change the throttle opening to hold height, the directional trim needs a bump at the same time to compensate for the torque change. The Gyro works as it should, but it's not a HH gyro. Because I have removed the throttle and tail rotor control stick spings, control is not at all difficult, but it is distracting when I'm focused on staying away from a wall or lawnmower.

When I get into a solid hover, the heli drifts around a bit exactly as expected. It's entirely controllable and is part of the heli flight experience. I'm fine with that. And I am flying the flybar 'plate', watching the flybar paddles and keeping them level. But as I fly with the heli under control I'll occasionally see a twitch in the flybar. The plate takes a dive in some random direction and of course the heli follows. I can nearly catch it, but of course it has already headed toward a wall or something before I can catch it. What bothers me is that it's not a gentle movement that I should watch for and compensate for. It's a twitch. I suppose I should be impressed that I am actually seeing the movement very early and catching the heli, and I can fly close to, but not hit walls and I can fly in the variable breezes on the patio.

So what I'm trying to get my head around is how much of my lack of ability is actually instability of the heli? I had the linkages in the inner holes of the servo arms, but I have moved them outboard and I'm using the longer ball mounts of the swash for control I am comfortable with. That helped. It seems that I have acquired (not mastered) the art of small and gentle moves of the controls. As I noted, my flights are smooth. Except for the twitches of the servos.

Back to my subject. How much effort am I exerting to fight the normal flight dynamics of a FP heli? I have read of the improved flight dynamics of the large helis with good radios. I have read of the improvements of the 400 size Collective Pitch helis as compared to the smaller FP helis. My original thought was to fly the Falcon until I had it mastered, then move up. I'm thinking that I am fighting frustrations of a lesser heli rather than improving my ability using a more stable helicopter. An amateur needs the best tool that he can afford. A really good flier can handle a lesser helicopter and make it look good.

Am I trying to justify a move to the Blade 400? Yeah, probably. Maybe a Blade 400 or perhaps something that is a well known commodity of similar stability. Very durable and stable without 3D capability. We know the specs that work the best (CP, brushless, LiPO, Belt Drive etc). I can't buy a top grade Tx unit, but I'll need a better Tx than I'm using now. Again, Blade 400? Am I premature or, because I really do see the difference between FP and the new crop of affordable CP helis, is it time to upgrade?

I'm open to comments. And I can take a hit, so be honest.
Thanks, Soloboss

Old 12-26-2007, 08:41 PM
  #2  
stump3r
 
stump3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Morinville, AB, CANADA
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

I right there with you Soloboss. I'm struggling with the move to the FP. Big time. Some of it could be due to lack of super tight setup like I'm used to with my CX2. then again I wonder just how unstable this heli really is. I too have had thoughts of the B400 over the last two days and wondered if the move to single rotor would have been this tough with a larger heli with higher head speed. I'm off to get beat up by the FP again.

Give me at least a month with this thing before I can honestly give you a good answer to your question solo.
Old 12-26-2007, 09:22 PM
  #3  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

I considered a PM to you about this, but who knows how many more of us there are out there with the same question and potentially an opinion for us. I'm glad you posted back.
I sure don't want fliers to avoid the Falcon, Sabre and Walkera along with the other similar helis. These are amazingly durable and they really do serve a purpose in the transition. For some, the FP may be as far as they want to go and there's nothing wrong with that! It's a cool looking heli sitting on the shelf and friends will be impressed when it flies.

I have been wondering if the FP can be upgraded to make the flight experience more rewarding and less frustrating. I need to hang out at the Walkera forum to learn. Maybe this is as good as it gets. We'll see what's out there.
I'm sure a better Tx / Rx combination would help the whole process with more direct Tx to servo response. As I noted in my post, I do see the flybar paddles making moves that I am not commanding. I think that it is caused by rogue air movements that upset the balance. I was warned about that, but I didn't think it would manifest itself in a sudden darting move. I expected a constant drifting of the craft as eddy currents flowed around the flying area - inside or outside.
Maybe a different / modified blade would make a difference. If I can flatten a set and get less lift and more head speed that may help.
I don't know that we can do anything about the gyro. It really works pretty well for what it is.
I don't have any issue with power, but more is better. The Super Skids helped stability. And there are two sets of swash link balls - one long, one short. That changes the response of the swash.
Maybe there is a little bit of flex in the servo mount, but I think mine are pretty tight. I'm looking for minor changes and I don't think there is any thing fundamentally wrong with the design or execution of these FP helis. They are a very good transition from the coaxials.

I keep beating myself up with this for one reason. WHEN we can fly these and hold the altitude well, keep the tail in-line and stay focused on the rotor plate so we can fly staying ahead of the heli, we will have a ball with a more sophisticated helicopter. I look forward to the upgrade, but I'm no where near as good as I can get with this one. Like you, I think my practice time would be better spent on a higher grade heli. And like you, despite the frustration I do really enjoy the single rotor fixed pitch.
Old 12-26-2007, 11:30 PM
  #4  
Wolfpackin
Senior Member
 
Wolfpackin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Avon, CO
Posts: 1,075
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Hang in there my friends.

In about a week or so I'll be able to give you some input on the stability and level of difficulty of the B400.
As you both know I have only flown the coaxial CX2 and I'm attempting the jump to single rotor CP in one leap of faith with zero sim experience.

How much do ya think that first flight attempt will cost me?

I'm interested to see if I struggle as much as you guys are reporting with your FP's.
I expect that, but I'm also open to pleasant surprises.
Old 12-26-2007, 11:31 PM
  #5  
stump3r
 
stump3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Morinville, AB, CANADA
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Sometimes the collective hive scares me. We think too much alike on alot of things. I too actually enjoy this heli, the challenge to get it in the air and keep there drives me to succeed at almost any cost. I guess it's time to read through the entire Walkera #4 and Exceed threads and get some ideas on how to tighten this bird up. With mine I find it very unresponsive. It's almost too slow to respond to tx inputs. Kind of like it wants to think about the input before it actually responds to it. Not 100% sure what to do....but I'll figure this bird out just like have the CX2. After seeing the videos that I have on these FP machines I do know they are capable stable fliers. I'll get this thing to perform! The way I look at it is it's beat up a $70.00 heli vs. a $500.00 heli. I would rather beat the hell out of this thing than a B400.
Old 12-26-2007, 11:51 PM
  #6  
Wolfpackin
Senior Member
 
Wolfpackin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Avon, CO
Posts: 1,075
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

The way I look at it is it's beat up a $70.00 heli vs. a $500.00 heli. I would rather beat the hell out of this thing than a B400.
You're making me even more nervous than I already am.[sm=72_72.gif]
Old 12-27-2007, 01:23 AM
  #7  
stersman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Clackamas , OR
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

A tip I might give to someone reading this who is learning a tail rotor heli is to use Newton's first law, an object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. With a tail rotor heli this is important because as the heli is in a hover its next move can be in almost any direction but if the heli is moving it takes more force to change the direction of the heli.... an object in motion tends to stay in motion. If you are flying in a straight line the movements are more predictable then if the heli comes to a stop and you then try to continue in a straight line. So when learning to bring a heli nose in it is much easier if you can keep the heli moving forward. Once you come to a stop it then can easily go in a different direction which might not be the direction one intended.

Flying in a figure 8 is good practice but depending on what way you complete the figure 8 is a big difference on how difficult it is. In the picture below if you follow the path of the arrows you will notice that the heli never quite reaches nose in to the pilot. But now fly the same figure 8 backwards and look what happens. Not only does the heli nose in but in does a complete wrap in prospective to the pilot. At first this does not make much sense. But if you take your finger around the 8 and pretend it is the heli and then do it the complete opposite you will see what I am talkintg about. I would recommend someone to practice in the directions of the arrows first. Once mastered than practice in the opposite direction which is a lot more difficult becuase of the position of the nose. Flying in the figure 8 keeps the heli in motion which does help.




-Jamie
BoomTownHobbies
Old 12-27-2007, 07:48 AM
  #8  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Hey Stump3r. This is turning into another good thread for those of us at this stage of progress. I got an informative PM from Dave (Chopersrule) and I'd like him to repost that in this thread. He gave me some good information and it does give me a sense of direction. His recommendation - Honey Bee King 2 - brushless. Simply, it's an RTF with brushless, lipo, belt driven tail, CP and it's a good deal larger than the Falcon. Size can be a good thing.
To compare the Falcon to the HBK2;
HB rotor is 3 1/2" larger, 2 1/2" longer overall, 120 grams heavier, 11.1 x 1500 mah LiPO with 3800 brushless power, Esky Pro Gyro. That makes it darned near the size of the Trex 450.

Thinking about how this heli might fit into my plan, the first thing that comes to mind is durability. If it has plastic blades that will take an occasional whack, I'm interested. I can't do $12 every time I mess up. And I'm gonna mess up.
What is the HB similar to - as far as breakable bits? My LHS doesn't sell the Esky line, but I'll bet the blades and bits are similar to something else.
The really good news is that the Bare Bones kit with motor (probably not brushless motor) is $65 + $15 = $80. So if I have really beaten the bugger up by the time I get it figured out, putting it back together is not cost prohibitive.
I have heard a lot of good stuff from the HBK2 folks. It gets compared very favorably with the B400 and the smaller Trex. No, it's not a Trex, but it does compare favorably by those who fly them.

Who among us has one each of all of the above for a comparison?

As much as I'd like the Trex, I'm not gonna spend the money. I'll worry this to death over the winter months, then it will be motorcycle season and my budget will be redirected. I just want a machine that leaves me being the weak link. OK, I'm the pitiful link.

Stersman - how large is the pattern that you have illustrated? I'm hoping for something about the size of a a baseball diamond. I know I can't do that in my garage. The walls get in the way.
Old 12-27-2007, 10:03 AM
  #9  
cx2cp+
Senior Member
 
cx2cp+'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: , AL
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

hey rotor heads - gkid finished off the fp (blades and holder, one rotor head bearing holder pin, flybar, shaft and separated the swashplate), so i just wish i had one to fly lol

the fp can be twitchy at times, usually its the flybar, or the tx, or the wind - wind doesn't move the heli or the blades much, it moves the flybar - imaging putting paddles on the cx2 flybar and how that would work with the tiniest of wind - also, on the cx2, the swash connects directly to the lower rotor and imparts changes immediately - on the fp, the cp, the king2, the blade 400 and even the trexes, the swash connects only to the flybar paddles, and only changes the pitch of the flybar paddles, which take a while to bite some air and move, thus imparting motion to the blades, so yeah, there is a noticeable delay, at least to me when compared to the cx2

if the flybar paddles were made of a heavy metal like depleted uranium they would have enough gyroscopic weight to hold their position against the wind, but they would also be so sluggish to fly up and down to tx control inputs that it would be pretty much uncontrollable - the problem here is always controllability versus gyroscopic stabilization - the flybar paddles have to fly, that is when we input a control the paddles just change pitch, and then they fly in that up or down direction and thus move the blades, and getting more gyroscopic stability means taking away from controllability

the whole reason the little heli's use flybars is the servos have to push so hard to control the blades directly (like they do on the full-size heli's which use hydraulics to push them around, not servos), but we controlled the blades directly on the cx2 so i don't really understand this

anyway, the cp, king2, 400, belt-cp and the trexes all have the same exact flybar paddles, just a little bit bigger in each case, and they all have that inherent flybar twitchyness - the higher head speed gives faster paddles which gives a bit more gyroscopic stabilization, but the instability is still there

if the 400 didn't come with the radio i'd say go for it, but i'm not too impressed by the radio (imo, its a repackaged cx2 radio guts with some added whackyness for extra flavor - also more an airplane radio than a heli radio, with flap switches and aileron trim stuff versus hover pitch and hover throttle and gyro sensitivity) - eflite only charges 90$ for the dx6i radio by itself, so that leaves 400$ for the 400 heli (1$ a size point) which is way too expensive for what you get

a full brushless falcon ep 3d is only around 229$ including tx and is the same size as the blade 400 ((1/2$ a size point) and comes standard with a shaft drive tail , a brushless king 2 is about 200$ too but is a little smaller than the 400 (about 350-ish and about 3/4$ a size point), and i really like to fly it inside (with plastic blade cp blades) more than the 400 or falcon 3d which are just too big for my 10' by 10' flying area - the trex is just way too expensive for the extra 3 inches of blue anodized alumibling (800$ w/ best motor, esc, gyro, servos, etc) which comes out to about 2$ a size point

one thing that sets the king2, falcon 3d, 400 and trexes apart is the tail rotor is driven off the main shaft (not using a separate motor) - i notice a delay there too as the tail has to 'catch up' with the heli sometimes

for work for my real estate clients i'm using the falcon 3d pretty much all the time now, with trex 450 flybar paddlles and plastic blades (325's) for that little bit of extra stability and extra lift to handle the camera weight - though i may try the 400 soon to see how it handles the weight of the camera


keep up the good work!


edge
Old 12-27-2007, 10:27 AM
  #10  
rayelljay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kernersville, NC
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Be not afraid....practice will make perfect and you will learn the quirks of your birds.
I started just over a year ago with a CX-2 and it has proved to be as bulletproof a bird as anyone could want providing you don't expect too much from it. Violent movements are out so it teaches smoothness.
I went to Cp-pro after a few months and "taught myself" to fly it.......just be patient and cautious....if you're not comfortable with the flight, land and try again.
Do not let the pressure of others coerce you into expensive bravado.
I still fly with the "training wheels" because it does increase the footprint and saves main blades.
With the CP-pro, to try to get perfect mechanically is a waste of time and resources. The heli is "gifted" with small diameter ball link ends for which there are no adequate tools so fine adjustment means some mangled fingernails and possible busted parts. Some ball ended pliers will work to separate the linkage but reassembling needs great care.....once you've done it a few times, you'll be OK....the actual balls have a skinny attachment' so that is the point of potential breakage.....I made my own little jigs for painless reassembly.
Some of the "goodies" out there are nice...(I have two CNC heads for the Pro) but, in reality, I found the best upgrades to be the autorotation system and the alum swashplate.
If you want mechanical (flying) perfection then you need to consider a bigger machine with easier handleable parts......I went to a T-rex and found that the larger disc spinning at higher RPM was easier to control.
I currently have 1-CX-2 with Stersman tail and the original motors but alum swashplate, 2-CP-pros with superskids, autorotate and alum swashplates and original motors...!!! and my beautiful Rex.
Most of all.....get some simulator time.....not just to play with but to learn what to expect from specific control inputs....some of those sim models are pretty accurate and will prepare you with a good visual "sight picture" of a bird in the air ('tis a trifle disconcerting when you first get a look at the underside of the rotor) but there's nothing quite like the real thing.
You'll find that hovering while within ground effect will be quite a challenge but not insurmountable....I found that once you get above three feet altitude you'll be able to relax more when out of ground effect.
It will become more addictive as you getter better and more confident.....trust me on that......and you'll get to a stage where you'll say to yourself "....can't understand why I had a problem with that."
Old 12-27-2007, 11:28 AM
  #11  
stump3r
 
stump3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Morinville, AB, CANADA
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

I'm finding the hardest thing is the control lag. Waiting for the flybar to react to tx input is driving me mad. I flew through two more bats last night and the longest sustained hover was still under a minute. I'm getting closer however I find this bird is a real challenge to stay ahead of. Reading through all the forums you read tips and tricks to deaden input to make it easier to fly. I'm thinking for those of us with finely tuned CX's that a dosile bird is not the answer. Wouldn't it be better to have a super touchy bird to learn on as the tx inputs would be similar to what we are used to? With my CX2 I moved the servo horns out and have her set to be super sensitive, and takes only the slightest touch on the tx to make her do what I want. Flying this FP machine is similar to a 76 Ford F150 with bad idler arms, it literally feels like I move a 1/4 stick before anything happens. Some of this maybe me being behind the heli, trying to react to it vs. being ahead of it and commanding it where I want it to go.
One tip I have received is to run the Eflight Blade CP motor in her with an 11 or 12 tooth pinion, 12 tooth being the best. Tough to find however. Increased head speed as well as longer run times. This coupled with trimming down the main blades will increase head speed as well as increase stability. Going to give the motor a try tonight then possibly try the blade trick later, as I have alot of spare blades.
Old 12-27-2007, 11:39 AM
  #12  
cx2cp+
Senior Member
 
cx2cp+'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: , AL
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

hmmmmm...which battery? the cp's 3-cell? - hope it doesn't fry the 4-in-1 !!!

i still use the cx2 lipos with the original stock motor in the fp


edge
Old 12-27-2007, 11:42 AM
  #13  
stump3r
 
stump3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Morinville, AB, CANADA
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Edge,

Nope still running the 7.4 volt lipo's.
Old 12-27-2007, 12:33 PM
  #14  
J-MICHAEL
 
J-MICHAEL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SEQUIM, WA
Posts: 6,100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Solo--

I've done a lot of reading on here as ya can tell...LMAO..! But anyway, I've heard good things about the HBK2...It is going to be my next heli for sure (JAG-HOBBIES $209.00--Brushless) I've noticed a lot of guys who have a Trex have one of these also. In my readings on research about it for the last few months, I've came to the conclusion it's golden with the brushless and tail belt mod including however the most important and that's having a good set-up.

I was playing around last night with the Trex, and filming and was not planning on sharing this, but I was curious on how stable the heli would be taking my left thumb of the stick, and after reading your post I thought I would pop this 30 second vid of me showing the TX and seeing the heli hover in front of me. Not all the way set-up yet, only ran 13 packs through it and I have yet to still figure out the darn DX-7 !! So all should get better. I need to take off the 315mm CF blades and put back on the 325mm ones, which provide a lot more stability. Haven't even had a chance to try them yet...! (Hard to break away from RCU...Lol.) It provides much more stability than the CPP, for sure...! It will take my learning curve to a whole new level. Just starting forward flight with the CPP, so the Trex will provide a better stable platform to learn on. Other vids on my You-Tube account show my first few times with the Trex and my first few forward flights of the CPP. I would bet to imagine, that getting the HBK2 you would be satisfied with the results. I'am still amazed at the price that Jag offers for the HBK2. $209.00...!! Hek the CX2 was $189.00.....The CPP was $249.00.........If I could only go back in time.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaaSmCo8vNA


Take care,

-- Jeff


JAG-HOBBIES http://jaghobbies.com/rc_planes/ek1h-e016a_cart.htm

Old 12-27-2007, 01:23 PM
  #15  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Hey stump. I spent some time looking around on ebay and found some cool stuff for the HBK2.
$50 will buy a full up alloy bag of goodies.
$355 + shipping will buy a Carbon Version of the HBK2 with the alloy goodies installed and the 3900 kv motor and Carbon Fiber Blades. Of course my head went into a tailspin as the $355 price includes the standard fare Tx. For another $100 the B400 includes the very nice DX6i.
OUCH - too much thinking again!

I'm gonna go fly the falcon in the garage. I need a grip on reality. I'll sit and count my money. That always keeps me focused! LOL!!

Soloboss
Old 12-27-2007, 01:45 PM
  #16  
stump3r
 
stump3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Morinville, AB, CANADA
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Solo, I've taken the attitude now of .... "I'm gonna learn to fly this heli end of story period!" The way I look at it is that if I can master this thing then I can safely move to a bigger heli without spending my kids inheritance on spares!
Old 12-27-2007, 01:55 PM
  #17  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Great Post. I'll need some time to digest it all but it sure make sense to me and it addresses some of my frustration. I understand the flybar in the CX series, but I'm new to the whole 'Flyin the flybar' thing in the single rotors. It's not complicated, I just hadn't thought about it much.

I must ponder. Thanks again.
When this thread is done, I'm going to have to print off the whole thing. Again, this Collective is amazing me.
Soloboss
Old 12-27-2007, 02:07 PM
  #18  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

OK, Stump. I wish we were neighbors. I need to share the commitment of someone else who is gonna learn this thing - or die. Then I read two of the other posts and Man - I can almost taste the HBK2 belt drive brushless.
Gimme the skinny on the trimmed blades, if you would. These blades are durable enough that I also have spares. I even have spares for my spares! I was just about to heat flatten a pair, but if there is a trim technique that is more repeatable, I'll go that way. If I heat flatten the blades, they will return to normal in the sun. If the sun ever shines again.

Oh, Lordy.

Soloboss
Old 12-27-2007, 03:09 PM
  #19  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

The video is interesting. I can see the heli and watch MY OWN THUMBS working to control it. Weird. Anyhow, where you are is where I'm headed. You comment about the fact that you have "Only run about 13 packs through". That does bring out something of interest. I haven't put 13 packs through my Falcon since I got it. I run a pack or sometimes (seldom) two and then I go do something else. That may lead one to conclude that what I need more than a new heli is simply more practice.

I am performing the correct movements in very small inputs. I have trimmed the heli and I do work the controls gently. One thing that I am not doing is to ALWAYS allow the right stick to return to center after a movement. Controlling the heli via a series of small movements of the right thumb is not difficult, but I tend to never let the stick center itself - I'm always actively flying it. And by flying my way, I lose my relationship to center, neutral, level. I've read many times that I should be trimming the heli so the flybar plate is slightly starboard of level so the heli will tend to sit still with no stick input. Of course the heli won't stay there, but when I add a stick movement to maintain the heli position, I need to let the stick return to neutral, and of course be prepared to correct its next random movement.
Old 12-27-2007, 03:17 PM
  #20  
BryFlyGuy67
Senior Member
 
BryFlyGuy67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,578
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Solo,

I found my TREX a LOT easier to hover right from Maiden flight than I have ever found my Walkera #4 to be. Granted the Walkera was AFU when I first got it. THen, one of the tail drive motor wires broke, I couldn't find a screw I needed and I just put it on the shelf in favor of tuning my completed TREX and CX2's and (now) building my second TREX.

If you have access to a sim, I highly recommend that!
Old 12-27-2007, 03:31 PM
  #21  
stersman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Clackamas , OR
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Solo,

The figure 8 will require a fairly large space like a baseball diamond.


I have a T-rex 450, King2, and a CP Pro. The 450 is easier to fly compared to the K2, but the K2 is easier to fly compared to the CP Pro. Typically the bigger they are the easier to fly. However the bigger they are the more money they cost. I hear a lot of talk about the King 2 and I can verify that it is an excellent heli for the money and they really do need a brushless motor. It is not a heli that can be flown inside a house. Not a normal house at least. Xtreme now is making upgraded parts for the K2 and I have them all in stock but we have not had time to add them to our webstore.
Old 12-27-2007, 03:39 PM
  #22  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

What you say about the larger CP machines is what's driving this thread. And driving me nuts. There are a few analogies that hold true in this situation.
Whether it's a tennis racket, a racecar, a camera or an electric helicopter, a pro performs better using high grade equipment.
It's difficult for a pro to make a lesser piece look good.
It's even more difficult for a rookie to function with lesser equipment.
Inversely, a rookie will perform better and learn faster on better equipment.

So that's what's driving this whole thing. Once I determine how much of my frustration is due to the heli and how much is my own inability, the path I take will be more easily determined. I need more practice, no question about that.
I'm going to paste paste the results of this entire thread into one document and I'll hang onto it as a reference. So far everyone who has responded has been great. Fliers have their own preferred machinery, but no one is claiming that everything else is junk or not worth the money.

Good stuff. I read several posts per week with guys looking for direction. This thread will be good for all of us.
Old 12-27-2007, 04:05 PM
  #23  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

LMAO - I was kidding about the course being the size of a baseball diamond. But you're serious! Lots of room for the clumsy among us. Brilliant! I can work with that.
I have read of others practicing figure 8's and I got the feeling they were doing that in the garage. Maybe sometime, but I don't see me doing that in my garage yet. Maybe I can start in the back yard. Better yet, I'll start by practicing on the SIM! This sounds like a plan coming together.

Like you, I am reading a lot of good stuff about the King 2 being a good value. I believe that VALUE is what those of us in my situation are looking for.
We don't expect a T-Rex for $200.
On the other hand, I have close to $300 in a CX with the full Xtreme Sport / Performance upgrades. Talk about value (NOT!) - I have one pretty cool shelf queen.
The Walkera #4 / Falcon / Sabre for under a hundred bucks delivered with spare blades is great value. It's a great trainer partly because it's durable beyond my wildest expectations.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I know my way around a CX pretty well, but this single rotor stuff is a whole new deal - and I'm thoroughly enjoying it!

All of my batteries are on the charger - then I'm back to the garage. More fun!!
Soloboss
Old 12-27-2007, 06:25 PM
  #24  
shufflez
Senior Member
 
shufflez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Amsterdam, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

Wow Solo, quite the thread you've started! After reading all posts, i though of an eleborate comment, but... i don't have something! As i don't have any experience on FP's and hardly on CP's.
I know you're 'fighting' the FP, instead of 'proactively' controlling it. I've put the 4th and 5th packs 'through' my HDX today (got footage too! Post that later, i'm on holiday (again! )), to trim it all out and what i've noticed is that now i have way more space (although sloped grass hill) i can react much more in control instead of 'panic' reactions to keep it from hitting something. Immediatelly when the HDX came close to anything or even with the tail near the ground, i started to overreact/overcompensate, causing me to have to fight to get control back.

I put the stock carbon blades (hmm, maybe time for traininggear... or not! ) on for the flights today, instead of the 'weaker'/more flexible and shorter plastic blades and i've noticed much better response and more docile control. So you might be on to a good thing with the blade-modding.

About the twitches, how sure are you those aren't radio-glitches? Keep hearing about those when i'm at the LHS, apparently something you'll learn to live with or cause you to switch to 2.4Ghz . Is it true that some of the 'older' servo's sometimes cause to twitch/jitter themselves when they've continiously pushed/pulled (so not stayed in fixed position)? If so, maybe that's causing the glitch? I don't believe that anything external would cause such a sudden and hefty twitch in the flybar. Winds/draft would have to fight the rotational force, so that should be a more docile reaction... Maybe sun-rain (heavy electromagnetic static caused by major events on the suns surface)?

We all know you can take a hit, but why would you need to?! We're on here to learn right? Not to get talked out of flying, but to get into flying!

But if you want a hit; maybe it's year of birth related?! (Sorry, that's something i say to my family most of the time when they cant get something working the way they want to i don't know if it's inappropriate here, but i'll take the hit if not ).


P.S. I've managed to crash my CX2 today for the first time in 'ages'! After the 'heavy' and concentration-draining HDX 'flights' i picked up the CX2 for a good beating around the yard/garden, all is well until i got balsy trying a stall turn . FFWD (well, as fast as a CX can go), pull full back on the pitch, just a bit of right aileron and you have yourself a flying brick . Good thing i have my HDX and now my CX2 can be my beloved 'bashing around' baby, instead of my 'carefull, watch it!' baby .
Old 12-27-2007, 07:55 PM
  #25  
soloboss
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

ORIGINAL: shufflez

Wow Solo, quite the thread you've started! After reading all posts, i though of an eleborate comment, but... i don't have something! As i don't have any experience on FP's and hardly on CP's.

YOU ALSO HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THE CX. THE CX HAS INSTANT RESPONSE AND LIKE STUMP3R NOTED, WE HAVE GOTTEN USED TO FLYING THE ROTOR BLADES - NOT FLYING THE FLYBAR. THESE SINGLE ROTORS SEEM VAGUE AND DISCONNECTED FROM THE INPUTS.

I know you're 'fighting' the FP, instead of 'proactively' controlling it. I've put the 4th and 5th packs 'through' my HDX today (got footage too! Post that later, i'm on holiday (again! )), to trim it all out and what i've noticed is that now i have way more space (although sloped grass hill) i can react much more in control instead of 'panic' reactions to keep it from hitting something. Immediatelly when the HDX came close to anything or even with the tail near the ground, i started to overreact/overcompensate, causing me to have to fight to get control back.

YES YOU DO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE FIGHTING. EVEN THOUGH THE FALCON IS EXTREMELY DURABLE, WE STRIVE TO CONTROL THE HELI. THAT'S WHY WE ARE IN TRAINING. FIRST LEARN CONTROL, THEN MOVE UP TO A MORE SOPHISTICATED MACHINE. AND I AM SEEING THE ROTOR / FLYBAR TILT BEFORE THE HELI MAKES A MOVE AND I AM ADDING PREEMTIVE CONTROL, BUT A SUBTLE TOUCH IS TYPICALLY NOT ENOUGH TO CORRECT IT. PERHAPS MY INPUTS ARE TOO GENTLE? SPEAKING STRICTLY FOR MY OWN SITUATION, I DO SPEND THE MAJORITY OF MY TIME DIRECTING THE HELI BACK TO THE CENTER OF MY GARAGE. MY INPUTS ARE GENTLE AND SUBTLE. GIVEN THE AIR TURBULENCE IN THE GARAGE (ROTOR WASH) SUBTLETY IS FREQUENTLY NOT ENOUGH.


I put the stock carbon blades (hmm, maybe time for traininggear... or not! ) on for the flights today, instead of the 'weaker'/more flexible and shorter plastic blades and i've noticed much better response and more docile control. So you might be on to a good thing with the blade-modding.

I APPRECIATE THE TIP. NOTING THE CONING OF THE STOCK BLADES IT ESTIMATE THE TIPS OF THE BLADES BEING 2.5" (64 MM) ABOVE THE HUB. THAT IS A LOT OF CONING AND IT'S NO WONDER THE REACTION IS SLUGGISH! I WOULD EXPECT THAT CARBON BLADES ON THE FALCON WOULD IMPROVE RESPONSE. AND YOU SAY THE HDX WITH CARBON BLADES IS MORE DOCILE? THAT'S VERY ENCOURAGING. IF WE MOD THE STOCK BLADE, IT MAY SPIN FASTER, BUT IT WON'T BE ANY MORE STIFF. I NEED TO WORK ON THAT ASPECT.

About the twitches, how sure are you those aren't radio-glitches? Keep hearing about those when i'm at the LHS, apparently something you'll learn to live with or cause you to switch to 2.4Ghz . Is it true that some of the 'older' servo's sometimes cause to twitch/jitter themselves when they've continiously pushed/pulled (so not stayed in fixed position)? If so, maybe that's causing the glitch? I don't believe that anything external would cause such a sudden and hefty twitch in the flybar. Winds/draft would have to fight the rotational force, so that should be a more docile reaction... Maybe sun-rain (heavy electromagnetic static caused by major events on the suns surface)?

I DO APPRECIATE THE MANNER OF YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS. GLITCHES - I HAVE PLACED THE HELI AT FAST IDLE ON THE FLOOR AND MOVED ALL AROUND IT WITH THE STICKS CENTERED AND AGAIN WITH STICKS OFF-CENTER. I NEVER-EVER SEE SIGNS OF A GLITCH. THAT MAKES ME THINK THAT I WAS WRONG ABOUT GLITCHING. AS WAS MENTIONED IN AN EARLIER POST IN THIS THREAD, IT MAY BE ROGUE AIR CURRENTS FROM FLYING IN AN ENCLOSED AREA. THE HELI SEEMS TO HAVE THE SAME ISSUE WHEN FLYING OUTDOORS IN A LIGHT GUSTY BREEZE. AT THIS JUNCTURE, I BELIEVE THAT SIDE WINDS WILL REACT ON A CONED ROTOR IN A MORE RADICAL MANNER THAN A FLAT STIFF ROTOR. YOUR OPINION?

We all know you can take a hit, but why would you need to?! We're on here to learn right? Not to get talked out of flying, but to get into flying!

BEYOND OPINION THERE IS TRUTH. WITH ENOUGH OPINIONS STATED, WE CAN EXTRACT TRUTH - OR AT MINIMUM WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE A COMMON FEELING. I'M SURE SOME OUT THERE THINK I'M JUST OVER THINKING THIS. PERHAPS I AM. BUT I AM LEARNING A LOT AND ENJOYING THE EXCHANGE.

But if you want a hit; maybe it's year of birth related?! (Sorry, that's something i say to my family most of the time when they cant get something working the way they want to i don't know if it's inappropriate here, but i'll take the hit if not ).

IN THIS COUNTRY, AT THIS TIME, WE DON'T SPEAK OF SUCH THINGS. WE ARE ENTIRELY TOO CONCERNED ABOUT PEOPLE'S "FEELINGS". SO YOUR COMMENT IS INAPPROPRIATE. BECAUSE THIS FORUM IS INTERNET BASED, AND THE INTERNET IS INTERNATIONAL, I SUPPOSE WE'LL HAVE TO TAKE YOUR COMMENT TO THE HAGUE FOR AN INTERNATIONAL TRIAL TO DETERMINE IF I CAN FEEL INSULTED OR NOT. AND I'M TRYING TO CONTAIN MY LAUGHTER AS I WRITE THIS KNOWING THAT YOUR COMMENT DOES HAVE SIGNIFICANT MERRIT!


P.S. I've managed to crash my CX2 today for the first time in 'ages'! After the 'heavy' and concentration-draining HDX 'flights' i picked up the CX2 for a good beating around the yard/garden, all is well until i got balsy trying a stall turn . FFWD (well, as fast as a CX can go), pull full back on the pitch, just a bit of right aileron and you have yourself a flying brick . Good thing i have my HDX and now my CX2 can be my beloved 'bashing around' baby, instead of my 'carefull, watch it!' baby .
THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS SHUFFLEZ. I WAS HOPING YOU WOULD THROW YOUR COMMENTARY INTO THE THREAD.
SOLOBOSS

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.