New Hacker ESC Senstrol
10-03-2011, 01:54 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Cork, IRELAND
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New Hacker ESC Senstrol
New Hacker speedcontroller, notice the sensor on the back of the motor....
http://www.matt-rc.li/englisch/news/...eit%202011.pdf
http://www.matt-rc.li/englisch/index.htm
Looks like they have incorporated a govenor...
http://www.matt-rc.li/englisch/news/...eit%202011.pdf
http://www.matt-rc.li/englisch/index.htm
Looks like they have incorporated a govenor...
10-04-2011, 06:07 AM
#3
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
From Esprit's Website:
http://www.espritmodel.com/new-2011-season.aspx
» Hacker C50 Sensored F3A Competition Power System
Hacker showed the new Senstrol 120 brushless airplane motor and controller combo. Coming with what they call Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this. Also, when turning the motor off the prop is positionable in any position you want and it stays there until you start the motor again. Hacker achieved this by having a 4096 step encoding system for the motor and fully automatic real-time variable frequency and phase sequencing calculation. The system is fully RPM controlled giving proportional RPM output with stick movement. The system is made around Hacker's C50 line of brushless motors with KV rating variants available when the Senstrol system is finally available.
http://www.espritmodel.com/new-2011-season.aspx
» Hacker C50 Sensored F3A Competition Power System
Hacker showed the new Senstrol 120 brushless airplane motor and controller combo. Coming with what they call Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this. Also, when turning the motor off the prop is positionable in any position you want and it stays there until you start the motor again. Hacker achieved this by having a 4096 step encoding system for the motor and fully automatic real-time variable frequency and phase sequencing calculation. The system is fully RPM controlled giving proportional RPM output with stick movement. The system is made around Hacker's C50 line of brushless motors with KV rating variants available when the Senstrol system is finally available.
10-04-2011, 07:35 AM
#4
My Feedback: (11)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tracy,
CA
Posts: 2,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
Cool.
Wonder what that will do to the battery temps. Guess they should be ok, but I would guess this will allow us to pull more amps from our batteries, and push more into our motors, warming both a little. But I could only see a few instances where the extra power would be used as I don't go to full throttle anyhow. Although it may allow us to run smaller motors and get more out of them.
Technology is cool, expensive, but cool!
Chris
Wonder what that will do to the battery temps. Guess they should be ok, but I would guess this will allow us to pull more amps from our batteries, and push more into our motors, warming both a little. But I could only see a few instances where the extra power would be used as I don't go to full throttle anyhow. Although it may allow us to run smaller motors and get more out of them.
Technology is cool, expensive, but cool!
Chris
10-04-2011, 07:46 AM
#5
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
I wonder if the Senstrol 'adds' power or rather 'limits' power so initially you have X amount of power and the esc gradually increases the amps as the battery voltage drops with the net result is a constant power (watts) setting for any given throttle position thru the flight. Sounds like a governor mode in helis.
Woodie
Woodie
10-04-2011, 08:07 AM
#6
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: woodie
I wonder if the Senstrol 'adds' power or rather 'limits' power so initially you have X amount of power and the esc gradually increases the amps as the battery voltage drops with the net result is a constant power (watts) setting for any given throttle position thru the flight. Sounds like a governor mode in helis.
Woodie
I wonder if the Senstrol 'adds' power or rather 'limits' power so initially you have X amount of power and the esc gradually increases the amps as the battery voltage drops with the net result is a constant power (watts) setting for any given throttle position thru the flight. Sounds like a governor mode in helis.
Woodie
Regards,
10-04-2011, 08:45 AM
#7
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: woodie
I wonder if the Senstrol 'adds' power or rather 'limits' power so initially you have X amount of power and the esc gradually increases the amps as the battery voltage drops with the net result is a constant power (watts) setting for any given throttle position thru the flight. Sounds like a governor mode in helis.
Woodie
I wonder if the Senstrol 'adds' power or rather 'limits' power so initially you have X amount of power and the esc gradually increases the amps as the battery voltage drops with the net result is a constant power (watts) setting for any given throttle position thru the flight. Sounds like a governor mode in helis.
Woodie
Jim
10-04-2011, 08:55 AM
#8
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
Jim, I agree, we would probably have to set some 'overhead' value so the system would not use full power at the beginning of the flight. Basically, the controller probably automatically does what we try to do with the throttle control as the voltage drops. Using more and more of the remaining stick travel to hold a constant speed.
Some of my flying buddies do something similar using multiple throttle curves but they use it to match various batteries so the newer packs don't feel different/stronger than the older packs.
Woodie
Some of my flying buddies do something similar using multiple throttle curves but they use it to match various batteries so the newer packs don't feel different/stronger than the older packs.
Woodie
10-04-2011, 11:05 AM
#9
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
So the motor RPM is a function of the throttle stick position, that is cool. Just curious how the following is achieved without knowing the speed of the airplane.
"For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor"
"For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor"
10-05-2011, 01:47 AM
#10
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
15 Posts
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
Don't you just love marketing, as if keeping the RPM the same will keep your airspeed the same giving you that constant speed look. You'd think they'd credit pattern flyers with a bit more intelligence.
If you don't up the RPM when you point the nose up the plane will slow down. Used in conjuction with a variable pitch prop, then I can see the point of a governor for F3A work.
That being cleared up, the esc knows exactly what the commutation frequency (some fixed multiple of the RPM depending on the number of motor poles) is so maintaining a set RPM is a very simple thing for the ESC unless the ESC is a Castle unit and it's trying to maintain the headspeed in a heli....but I won't go there....
The only reason that I can figure for having sensors in the motor is so that the ESC knows exactly where the motor rotor is allowing very fine control of the commutation timing at low rpm and situations where the back EMF signal isn't good, heavy braking on a downline with a prop speed of a few hundred RPM or maybe if the core is saturating from excessive motor current. There's no reason why the ESC can't operate in sensorless "mode" when the back EMF sigal is clean.
There's no doubt that properly configured that you can get the best of both worlds (sensored and sensorless control)
If you don't up the RPM when you point the nose up the plane will slow down. Used in conjuction with a variable pitch prop, then I can see the point of a governor for F3A work.
That being cleared up, the esc knows exactly what the commutation frequency (some fixed multiple of the RPM depending on the number of motor poles) is so maintaining a set RPM is a very simple thing for the ESC unless the ESC is a Castle unit and it's trying to maintain the headspeed in a heli....but I won't go there....
The only reason that I can figure for having sensors in the motor is so that the ESC knows exactly where the motor rotor is allowing very fine control of the commutation timing at low rpm and situations where the back EMF signal isn't good, heavy braking on a downline with a prop speed of a few hundred RPM or maybe if the core is saturating from excessive motor current. There's no reason why the ESC can't operate in sensorless "mode" when the back EMF sigal is clean.
There's no doubt that properly configured that you can get the best of both worlds (sensored and sensorless control)
10-05-2011, 05:06 AM
#12
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
Probably it produces a linear or more linear throttle curve than the actual sensorless, so the control is more realistic than those when you have power above 50% of motor power, it might half power at 25% or so.
I have a C50-14XL Comp WM LE, and it does lack power from 50% down, something I am not used to, maybe this fixes that?
There must be something really good about it for Hacker to spend in the R&D.
Regards
Alejandro P.
I have a C50-14XL Comp WM LE, and it does lack power from 50% down, something I am not used to, maybe this fixes that?
There must be something really good about it for Hacker to spend in the R&D.
Regards
Alejandro P.
10-05-2011, 07:27 AM
#13
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
I understand this isn't the point of the Senstrol, since the discussion has sort of gone there, why not just use a voltage regulator at 35 or 36 volts if you want constant power throughout the flight?
Seems to me like this setup is trying to work like 'cruise control' though not sure we have enough information about it to really assess it's potential benefits or failure points.
God forbid we have to move our thumbs 3/4" for loops and verticals, lol.
Seems to me like this setup is trying to work like 'cruise control' though not sure we have enough information about it to really assess it's potential benefits or failure points.
God forbid we have to move our thumbs 3/4" for loops and verticals, lol.
10-05-2011, 12:01 PM
#14
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz
Don't you just love marketing, as if keeping the RPM the same will keep your airspeed the same giving you that constant speed look. You'd think they'd credit pattern flyers with a bit more intelligence.
If you don't up the RPM when you point the nose up the plane will slow down. Used in conjuction with a variable pitch prop, then I can see the point of a governor for F3A work.
That being cleared up, the esc knows exactly what the commutation frequency (some fixed multiple of the RPM depending on the number of motor poles) is so maintaining a set RPM is a very simple thing for the ESC unless the ESC is a Castle unit and it's trying to maintain the headspeed in a heli....but I won't go there....
The only reason that I can figure for having sensors in the motor is so that the ESC knows exactly where the motor rotor is allowing very fine control of the commutation timing at low rpm and situations where the back EMF signal isn't good, heavy braking on a downline with a prop speed of a few hundred RPM or maybe if the core is saturating from excessive motor current. There's no reason why the ESC can't operate in sensorless ''mode'' when the back EMF sigal is clean.
There's no doubt that properly configured that you can get the best of both worlds (sensored and sensorless control)
Don't you just love marketing, as if keeping the RPM the same will keep your airspeed the same giving you that constant speed look. You'd think they'd credit pattern flyers with a bit more intelligence.
If you don't up the RPM when you point the nose up the plane will slow down. Used in conjuction with a variable pitch prop, then I can see the point of a governor for F3A work.
That being cleared up, the esc knows exactly what the commutation frequency (some fixed multiple of the RPM depending on the number of motor poles) is so maintaining a set RPM is a very simple thing for the ESC unless the ESC is a Castle unit and it's trying to maintain the headspeed in a heli....but I won't go there....
The only reason that I can figure for having sensors in the motor is so that the ESC knows exactly where the motor rotor is allowing very fine control of the commutation timing at low rpm and situations where the back EMF signal isn't good, heavy braking on a downline with a prop speed of a few hundred RPM or maybe if the core is saturating from excessive motor current. There's no reason why the ESC can't operate in sensorless ''mode'' when the back EMF sigal is clean.
There's no doubt that properly configured that you can get the best of both worlds (sensored and sensorless control)
Jim
10-05-2011, 02:49 PM
#15
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
15 Posts
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
"Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this."
When I see "holds the RPM" and "need this constant speed flight" then it's pretty clear what their implying.
An ESC does not need an additional sensor to govern to a set rpm OR to ramp up the power for any given throttle position to compensate for dropping pack voltage, it already knows the RPM and it already knows the pack voltage and there's a really good chance it already knows the motor current, so it would be very easy for it to emulate any IC engine Torque vs RPM curve.
I'm not knocking it, I'm just really curious as to what the sensor's REALLY there for.
When I see "holds the RPM" and "need this constant speed flight" then it's pretty clear what their implying.
An ESC does not need an additional sensor to govern to a set rpm OR to ramp up the power for any given throttle position to compensate for dropping pack voltage, it already knows the RPM and it already knows the pack voltage and there's a really good chance it already knows the motor current, so it would be very easy for it to emulate any IC engine Torque vs RPM curve.
I'm not knocking it, I'm just really curious as to what the sensor's REALLY there for.
10-05-2011, 03:38 PM
#16
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz
''Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this.''
When I see ''holds the RPM'' and ''need this constant speed flight'' then it's pretty clear what their implying.
An ESC does not need an additional sensor to govern to a set rpm OR to ramp up the power for any given throttle position to compensate for dropping pack voltage, it already knows the RPM and it already knows the pack voltage and there's a really good chance it already knows the motor current, so it would be very easy for it to emulate any IC engine Torque vs RPM curve.
I'm not knocking it, I'm just really curious as to what the sensor's REALLY there for.
''Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this.''
When I see ''holds the RPM'' and ''need this constant speed flight'' then it's pretty clear what their implying.
An ESC does not need an additional sensor to govern to a set rpm OR to ramp up the power for any given throttle position to compensate for dropping pack voltage, it already knows the RPM and it already knows the pack voltage and there's a really good chance it already knows the motor current, so it would be very easy for it to emulate any IC engine Torque vs RPM curve.
I'm not knocking it, I'm just really curious as to what the sensor's REALLY there for.
In order to control rpm the esc must know the angular position in real time in order to calculate the near instant rpm. Averaging over 10 Hz or more is not going to give you the frequency response you would like. You are probably aware of how long it takes the governor to get the rpm under control in a helicopter, but that is okay as long as you don't need quick changes in rpm.
Jim
10-05-2011, 03:49 PM
#17
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz
I'm not knocking it, I'm just really curious as to what the sensor's REALLY there for.
I'm not knocking it, I'm just really curious as to what the sensor's REALLY there for.
Go way up high and check the RPM entering a spin, during the spin, and at the end of a long downline after the spin. It will become very apparent why the sensor is needed. The ESC is blind to motor RPM when the brake is being applied, and if the brake is not being applied, the RPM will spool up substantially, thus negating the claim and claimed benefit of constant RPM.
I agree that constant RPM at constant throttle position will not yield constant airspeed (or necessarily constant full throttle RPM as the battery discharges), but it may make it easier to fly constant speed. Of course the wind is always a factor, so throttle adjustments are constantly being made for that as well.
Regards,
10-05-2011, 04:59 PM
#18
My Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Aldie, VA
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz
"Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this."
When I see "holds the RPM" and "need this constant speed flight" then it's pretty clear what their implying.
"Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this."
When I see "holds the RPM" and "need this constant speed flight" then it's pretty clear what their implying.
Full scale aviation refers to a constant-speed prop. That is a prop that has variable pitch and is controlled by both a power lever and pitch lever. The airspeed of the aircraft is not what is kept constant byhaving a constant-speed prop. It is the set-point RPMs that are kept constant. So we have the case where the term "speed" is used to refer to maintaining a set number of RPMs. Ithink the intent of this device is precisely the same. the differencethey cannot obtain that by varying pitch for a given power setting. They have to measure RPM and adjust power to maintain the desired RPMs.
What Does "Constant Speed Propeller" Mean?
It means a constant RPM (revolution per minute) system that permits the pilot to select the propeller and engine speed the pilot wants for any situation, and then automatically maintain that RPM under varying conditions of airspeed and power.
10-05-2011, 06:11 PM
#19
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz
I'm not knocking it, I'm just really curious as to what the sensor's REALLY there for.
I'm not knocking it, I'm just really curious as to what the sensor's REALLY there for.
10-06-2011, 03:44 AM
#20
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
15 Posts
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
Please don't mind my comments too much, I'm just grumpy because I'm running in my YS after another rebuild...Yayyyy
There's certainly no downside to the ESC having another pair of eyes on what the motor's doing.
There's certainly no downside to the ESC having another pair of eyes on what the motor's doing.
10-06-2011, 05:30 AM
#21
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
From Esprit's Website:
http://www.espritmodel.com/new-2011-season.aspx
» Hacker C50 Sensored F3A Competition Power System
Hacker showed the new Senstrol 120 brushless airplane motor and controller combo. Coming with what they call Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this. Also, when turning the motor off the prop is positionable in any position you want and it stays there until you start the motor again. Hacker achieved this by having a 4096 step encoding system for the motor and fully automatic real-time variable frequency and phase sequencing calculation. The system is fully RPM controlled giving proportional RPM output with stick movement. The system is made around Hacker's C50 line of brushless motors with KV rating variants available when the Senstrol system is finally available.
From Esprit's Website:
http://www.espritmodel.com/new-2011-season.aspx
» Hacker C50 Sensored F3A Competition Power System
Hacker showed the new Senstrol 120 brushless airplane motor and controller combo. Coming with what they call Constant Power Management the controller simply holds the RPM adjusted by the transmitter stick irregardless the flight situation the plane. For example the plane is flight into a loop then the controller holds the RPM by putting more power on the motor and also holds the RPM when going downwards again by given less power on the motor. F3A pilots who need this constant speed flight situation will welcome this. Also, when turning the motor off the prop is positionable in any position you want and it stays there until you start the motor again. Hacker achieved this by having a 4096 step encoding system for the motor and fully automatic real-time variable frequency and phase sequencing calculation. The system is fully RPM controlled giving proportional RPM output with stick movement. The system is made around Hacker's C50 line of brushless motors with KV rating variants available when the Senstrol system is finally available.
You might remember the Pletty vector system was deemed 'not allowed' by the FAI F3A subcommittee.
The code says ,in the Not allowed section;
'2. Pre-programmng devices to automatically perform a series of commands.'
I think that automatic adjustment of power to compensate for model attitude and or speed will fall foul of this rule
If you think about it is similar to auto wing levelling.
Brian
10-06-2011, 07:01 AM
#22
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
Brian,
I think you will find if the system monitored airspeed and adjusted power input to hold constant airspeed it would be illegal but holding rpm constant isnt.
Besides you know you are going to put one on your contradrive!
Cheers,
Malcolm
I think you will find if the system monitored airspeed and adjusted power input to hold constant airspeed it would be illegal but holding rpm constant isnt.
Besides you know you are going to put one on your contradrive!
Cheers,
Malcolm
10-06-2011, 07:08 AM
#23
My Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Collierville,
TN
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz
. . .<snip>. . I'm running in my YS after another rebuild...Yayyyy
. . .<snip>. .
. . .<snip>. . I'm running in my YS after another rebuild...Yayyyy
. . .<snip>. .
Dang, that makes my eye twitch half way 'round the world!!!!
.
10-06-2011, 10:07 AM
#25
RE: New Hacker ESC Senstrol
ORIGINAL: Malcolm H
Brian,
I think you will find if the system monitored airspeed and adjusted power input to hold constant airspeed it would be illegal but holding rpm constant isnt.
Besides you know you are going to put one on your contradrive!
Cheers,
Malcolm
Brian,
I think you will find if the system monitored airspeed and adjusted power input to hold constant airspeed it would be illegal but holding rpm constant isnt.
Besides you know you are going to put one on your contradrive!
Cheers,
Malcolm
If it 'automatically' increases power to the motor as the load increases to maintain a given RPM and then/also 'automatically' decreases power to the motor as load decreases then it will have contravened that 'not allowed' rule in my opinion.
Having thought about this I think it should indeed be deemed 'not allowed'. The line has to be drawn someplace.
I would hate to have a contra drive that contravened the rules
.Brian