shannah

My Feedback: (5)

I had a chance to fly my DTFS wings on my Nuance. This is the stock Nuance that I have been flying and the only change I made was to install the DTFS wings. They mated right up to the Nuance with no modifications required. This makes it possible to swap back and forth from stock wing to the DTFS wing.

I saw Kris Fitzsimmons fly his Nuance with the DTFS wings at our D7 Championships a couple months ago. It looked very good in the air. His Nuance had a horizontal stab that looked more like the one on the Episode. There may have been some other alterations but I am not sure. On mine, I just stuck the wings on my stock Nuance and flew it.

I really need to get more flights on this to form an accurate opinion but my first impressions are as follows:

Pros
- Snaps: Wow. Very crisp and fast
- Spins: Great and very pretty. Easy to nail them.
- Knife Edge maneuvers: Seemed easier to fly than with the stock wings. I found that I was doing less aileron correction through the KE loops.
- Rolling Circles: Seemed easier to fly than the stock wings. I thought it flat turned better and held altitude more consistently.
- Looks good in the air

Cons
- Seems more sensitive in Yaw. Mind you, I don't use stab fences on my Nuance
- I don't think it rolls as nicely as the standard wing. That could just be me feeding in too much rudder, but it didn't have the same feeling
- I think I will have to move the CG forward on this and try flying it some more, but it felt a bit "loose". I will reduce my control throws as well and adjust expos. It will definitely be set up as a different "model" on my transmitter.

If I were forced to make a final determination right now, which I am not ready to do, I would fly the stock wings in P13 and pop the DTFS wings on for F13. It was obvious to me that the DTFS wings were much better at F13 than the standard wings.

I probably won't get a chance to fly them for a while since I am trying to get the Episode dialed in. So, stay tuned and I'll post more soon.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

I wonder if not moving the wing tube forward in the fuse has any differences on how mine flys vs yours Steve. I am guessing it would unless the wings are built different to put the tube in a different location in the wing to move it forward. I wonder if the yaw and roll difference you see could be because the wing is further back than mine.

C

shannah

My Feedback: (5)

Possibly,

It didn't feel tail heavy in the air (inverted 45's had the normal amount of down elev required), but I did move the CG forward a bit and it helped.

How far forward is your tube?

shannah

My Feedback: (5)

You know, after looking at the pics I think the wings are in the same spot. What do you think?

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Tony and I looked at mine vs his and they definitely moved mine forward. Judging by where the trailing edge is vs the rear of the canopy.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

I installed the DTFS wings on mine early this week. The way they are built they move the root of the wing slightly forward of the stock wings. But with the difference in planform of the DTFS wings vs the stock wings the center of pressure is probably at the same point between the two.

I only have a couple of flights on mine so I haven't really decided what I like better. Hopefully the weather will improve here and I can start getting some more flights on them.

shannah

My Feedback: (5)

Tony is correct,

Here's a side by side pic of the wings.

The wing labeled "429" is the DTFS wing.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

I wondered if they would do that. They are pretty smart!

shannah

My Feedback: (5)

I asked B.J. about the DTFS setup on the Nuance. Here are his thoughts on it:

- The DTFS wing was designed with the FAI class flier in mind and is not optimized for the standard AMA classes
- Due to the design characteristics of the wing, the expert fliers will see a lot of benefits, but it can be tricky in very strong cross wind which could be tough for the average flier.
- The DTFS wing should increase the stability in flight over the standard wing.
- The wing has less area and is thinner which results in the effective increase in vertical and horizontal tail volume, hence the increased stability without the use of wing fences
- The Center of Pressure and C/G are at the same position as the stock wing. This can give a feeling of being slightly nose heavy due to the design characteristics of the wing.
- In addition, since most fliers were moving the CG forward with the stock wing on the Nuance, this wing was designed to match a CG which is more forward to begin with.
- The wing root is moved slightly forward and the chord is longer than the stock wing so this has some effects similar to a canalizer
- Because of this, the neutral sensitivity of the rudder is increased. Rudder Expo and Elevator Expo should be increased even if CG is the same as the stock wing
- Since there is increased neutral sensitivity, you will definitely need the stab fences if you are running a contra drive
- With all these differences in setup you will definitely need a new model program in your TX

As for Kris' Nuance with the DTFS wings, he did some clever things. Everything is stock on the fuselage. However, since it had a pull pull rudder installation B.J. removed the rudder hatch and went with the Episode stab. The smaller stab area balances the effect of the forward rudder servo by reducing the pitch inertia.

So, with all this said, I just had to go try a few things on mine. The weather cooperated and I was able to get out for a few flights this afternoon. The weather was dead calm so I really had a chance to see how it flew.

I moved my batteries forward by over 1" to start with. I also increased expo on rudder and elevator as he recommended and I reduced the throw on all surfaces. My feeling previously was that it seemed a bit loose so I was hoping that B.J. was right and that these changes would help.

Well...... All I can say is that he was dead-nuts on. This thing flew really well. The loose feeling was gone. It tracked very well and it was a real joy to fly. I did notice that I need to make some thrust adjustments. I am not sure why, but I was seeing a pull to the left on long uplines that I had not noticed before. I re-read his design notes on the Nuance thread on his website and he says that in order to correct the pull to the left you must increase the up thrust. Yes, you heard that right. Increase the up thrust in order to eliminate a pull to the left on uplines. This is really interesting to me since I had previously increased right thrust and down thrust and noticed that I was getting a pull to the right when pulling level out of a downline. So I think I will reduce my right thrust, reduce my down thrust, and see how it tracks. Very interesting approach.

That all being said, I was really impressed with the way it flew today. So much so that I will probably take it out a few more times and get it dialed in before I go back to the Episode. I can get the Nuance DTFS dialed in very quickly which will let me take my time with the Episode.

I'll keep you posted as to how the thrust micro-changes go.

woodie

Steve,

Thanks for all the tests and results. This combination of different wings/stabs and probably thrust arrangements are a great example of how different configurations can effect the performance of a pattern model. Very interesting.

Happy Holidays
Woodie

MTK

The new wing should be able to start and most importantly, stop snaps and spins more crisply. But I suspect that's about all the benefit to be had. The AC position of the panels isn't changed enough to make much difference in turbulent cross wind.

One can do the same thing to snaps and spins with a conventional planform (easier build) but get additional benefits of better cross wind flight, by changing the ratio of root chord to tip chord to 3+. Very very few current set-ups exceed 2.5:1; moststill are built at 2:1.I think it's better to have the MAC as close to the root chord as practical, minimizing the moment arm from fuse center to AC. A 10% reduction in the moment is within reach and results in easier flying in all conditions.

papaone

Hello

Nb : Which countries is it free shipping for Nuance ?
http://www.bondaero.co.uk/index.aspx...prodid=4969012
Claude

bondtasha

Papaone


Sale on of a few airframes that are overspill to current storage facilities until gone, or new larger stock area available late January 2013. Sadly shipping only to Uk at that price where most customers collect or meet for handover to avoid courier damage . Shipping to France about 130 Euro or have met customers at the channel tunnel as an option for half the shipping cost and much safer to avoid courier damage.

Free Euro shipping on the combo deals which include the HYK inrunner which is very nice indeed.

http://www.bondaero.co.uk/Competitio...2_8388544.aspx

vbr

Chris

crazyf3a

Delete

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Sorry to hear about your Nuance Andreas!

Chris

Chris Moon

My Feedback: (8)

The new BJ Craft landing gear with less sweep is available now. It moves the wheels forward 2" and retains the same spread and prop clearance. It fits all 2M BJ Craft planes (Monolog, Prolog, Nuance, Episode) and comes with a set of wheels and wheel pants and new hardware. Easy bolt in replacement.
http://www.f3aunlimited.com/webstore...roducts_id=738

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Got some flying in with the new wings in no wind. I am flying it nose heavy ( haven't checked the cg, just feels pretty nose heavy) so not sure if it has. Something to do with it, but I do notice a bit of tracking issues in pulls and pushes. I don't remember that with the old wings. I am going to try stab fences. I do love how it snaps with these wings. Maybe the large canalyzer would also help.

Did anyone figure out how to mount it on the nuance yet?

Thx,

C

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

Hey C if you got a Episode canopy with the Top wing and you had a DTFSwing on it it would be an Episode. I think the stab fences are very important.
I think the canopys are interchangable like the Nuance and the Prolog. Mike

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

The Canopies are interchangeable, but the attachment method is different. One other difference is the rudder is MUCH taller on the Episode compared to the Nuance. I now have a set of DTFS wings to try and am going to convert the canopy attachment on my Nuance to match the Episode so I can do some playing over the next 6 weeks or so when the weather cooperates.

Arch

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

FWIW we stock all the hardware to change the way you mount the canopy's. Mike

shannah

My Feedback: (5)

The horizontal stab is much higher on the Episode than on the Nuance. So, I'm not sure how it will work out if you stick the canalizer on the Nuance. I may try taking it off of the Episode just for a comparison.

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

Steve the top wing has to be generating lift. Wouldn't you agree? If so losing the lift would make a difference in my opinion. Just asking. Mike

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

I agree Steve. Not sure what the effect would be with the difference in stab and rudder. I know stab fences will help. Going to try them first. I need to check the cg on it also. Feels nose heavy in flight. But not so much when I pick it up.

C

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

http://www.f3aunlimited.com/webstore...roducts_id=743
Stab fence kitsare now available.
Mike

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Cool.

I doubt these would fit mine as I think I got episode stabs. Really cool that you are carrying these Mike! Your inventory list is really awesome and always growing. You guys ( and gal) are doing a great job!

It's really cool to see a manufacturer providing stuff like this also.

C