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Pletty Advance mystery

Old 05-25-2013, 05:03 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Dana, assuming the motor is fine (although I haven't tested by swapping out with a new motor), the prop change seems to have partially solved the problem by putting more load on the batteries.

And the battery-as-culprit proponents also seem to be correct, BUT not because the batteries are fried but because they are 'lazy' from not being pushed enough.

Sorry for the mushy answer. Much preferred to have a Voila! moment with a clear answer leaping out.

I am sure Dave is correct about motors with regard to current state of the art. However after watching Jesky and Shulman flying direct-drive set-ups at the Nats, the gulf between them isn't all that big, or so it seems to me.
Old 05-25-2013, 05:11 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery


ORIGINAL: cmoulder

Dana, assuming the motor is fine (although I haven't tested by swapping out with a new motor), the prop change seems to have partially solved the problem by putting more load on the batteries.

Or maybe the prop is just more efficient?!

My experience is the Falcon and APC use less mAh than the Mez do.
Old 05-25-2013, 06:14 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Maybe! I now have 2 of the 21x14 V2's.

However, on the corner around the last half-triangle I was still using full throttle, so it's a bit more complicated.

I was very surprised that the batteries seemed so 'tired' at the end of the sequence and yet kept going, with some getting markedly better.

Flying the FAI sequences, I guess you never have a problem with under-utilization of battery capacity!
Old 05-25-2013, 06:27 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery


ORIGINAL: cmoulder

Maybe! I now have 2 of the 21x14 V2's.

However, on the corner around the last half-triangle I was still using full throttle, so it's a bit more complicated.

I was very surprised that the batteries seemed so 'tired' at the end of the sequence and yet kept going, with some getting markedly better.

Flying the FAI sequences, I guess you never have a problem with under-utilizing battery capacity!
I often hit full throttle in a flight, why is hitting full throttle a problem? I often only charge back in 3000-3200 mAh for the P sequence...batteries don't care.
Old 05-25-2013, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Bob, I use the 20.5X14.5 Falcon prop and have no issue with power for Masters. Even with my two old 25C TP packs that have 100ish flights. Yep, I have to peg the throttle in a few places with the old batteries and even my newer batteries sometimes. No big deal, like Chad said. Typically consume upper 2000's to lower 3000's. Used GensAce 5300's and F3Aunlimited 5100's successfully,as well.Unfortunately, the Xigris just feels better in flight with the lighter TP packs, but I like the 30C/35C batteries from the standpoint of staying cooler. Prefer the Pletty Advance/YGE controller combo over anything else I have tried.
Old 05-26-2013, 01:21 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Chad and Joe, I am just not going to worry about it any more and fly with the 21x14 Falcon.

Seems good enough for now, and I will continue to monitor battery mAh usage and temps, etc. I will put the old Astro Whattmeter on it to see what kind of amps it is drawing. Switched back to the OS controller so don't have the data logging.
Old 06-15-2013, 04:47 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

I bought another Advance from Icare, installed it yesterday and flew it today....

What a huge difference! The problem was indeed the motor. Today it was just like old times with all batteries working fine, including some 3-year-old Rhinos that made it through the sequence easily with gobs of power to spare. During the contest in Canandaigua the model barely made it through the last half-triangle, but today with the new motor the power level was back to where I had experienced it just before the mysterious drop-off in power from the first Pletty. Today recharges were consistently in the 2300-2400mAh range where previously the batteries were requiring 3000-3200mAh. Even with the worst -performing pack the power and capacity were waaaayy more than needed for AMA Advanced.

So the problem component has at long last been identified, but the mystery still remains - why did the Pletty suddenly lose power output capability?

I sure as heck don't know, so I will contact Icare and make arrangements to send it to Plettenberg to see if they can figure it out.

EDIT: Just charged the batts from one of the last flights in light wind and put back 1974mAh and 1991mAh in the series-wired packs (Sky 4400 40C), and 2221mAh into one of the old Rhinos, and 2600mAh into a Sky 4400 40C pair with 81 cycles, this following the Advanced sequence plus several repeat maneuvers and a very long vertical at the end to detect any drop-off in power, of which there wasn't any!

Old 06-16-2013, 07:25 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Hi Bob,

Might be worth sending that one back to Plettenberg to see what's going on.

Good to hear that you have found the culprit.

Cheers,
Jason.
Old 06-17-2013, 04:13 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Jason, I plan to do this, but am debating with myself whether to contact Icare and send it to Pletty through them, or to send it to Plettenberg directly. In the information sheet that comes with the motor there is complete info for contacting Pletty. I know that manufacturers don't want to see their retailers hassled with repair problems, so it's likely I will send it direct to Pletty.

Anyone have any experience/opinions on how best to go about it?
Old 06-17-2013, 05:25 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

I have sent a couple of Extra 30 Evos for checking in the past direct to Pletty from the UK and never had any problems. They were happy to accept credit card payments for work done.

Malcolm
Old 06-17-2013, 12:53 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Loosing magnetism in the permanent magnets increase amps to achieve revolutions. So why has the magnetism gone away ? Too many flights with over temperature ? I did that to my first Hacker c50 13, send it in for repair and got a mail from Hacker " pulling more than 100 AMP, magnets gone, beyond repair. Will discount you on new purchase
Old 06-18-2013, 03:36 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

I mailed it to Plettenberg today. I am guessing it will be some weeks before there is a response.

In the meantime the new motor is doing great, and even better today after I returned to my previous throttle curve which I mucked up while chasing the motor performance problem.
Old 06-20-2013, 01:19 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Its the part you didnt want to replace to see where the problem was and it turns out to tbe the source. Im glad you found it but to bad it so expensive for a back up motor.
Old 07-15-2013, 04:01 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery


ORIGINAL: flatlandmike

Its the part you didnt want to replace to see where the problem was and it turns out to tbe the source. Im glad you found it but to bad it so expensive for a back up motor.
Dear Mr. Wuest,


Thank you very much for the motor examination and discovery of the problem. I did not suspect this because of a few hundred flights with no problems.

My 'technique' - obviously not a good one - has been to heat the connector with a butane torch and fill the connector cup with solder and put some flux on the end of the wire, put it in the cup and let it 'cook', then let it cool. I will of course take some steps to correct this error on my part.



As I indicated earlier on the RCU thread, I will post the results of your findings so that everyone has a clear understanding of the problem and that it is no fault of Plettenberg.


Bob







On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 04:01 AM, Technik - Plettenberg Motoren wrote:






Dear Mr. Moulder,



we received an Advance 30-10 for a check.

We found the problem very quickly.

You have shorten the motor cables and you don't have tin the cables correctly before you solder the plugs.

As I try to remove the heat shrink of the white motor cable, the plug came whit it.

You will find some pictures attached.

As you can see there is no tin at the end of the motor cable.

Also, as you can see at the blue motor cable, there are not all strings inside the plug.

Normally a motor with such soldering places will burn, so you have much luck that you motor is still ok.

The no load tests are fine and all values are ok.



It is always interesting that there are discussions about such problems in the internet, but the people how have this problems don't tell it to us.

Maybe you have the time to post the results and the pictures at RC Universe.

The soldering places and the plugs are very important parts of such a drive system.

So please don't be shy to spend the more costs of high quality plugs from MultiContact or from Schnepp.





Best regards



Manuel Wuest

TEAM Plettenberg



Plettenberg Elektromotoren

Rostocker Str. 30

D - 34225 Baunatal

Tel: ++49 (0) 56 01 / 97 96 0

Fax: ++49 (0) 56 01 / 97 96 11

Handels Reg. Abt. A Nr. 9503

Amtsgericht Kassel

www.Plettenberg-Motoren.com



We are in summer break from 2013.08.05 - 2013.08.16


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Old 07-15-2013, 04:44 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Hi Bob,
Just in case there is a lack of info in their response;
Those are the ends of the actual windings.
The wires are lacquered.
To shorten and solder requires that you remove that high temp coating from each individual strand where you want the solder to bind.

Brian
Old 07-15-2013, 07:28 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Brian, thanks; that is some good information.

What is your method for removing the hi-temp lacquer? I am guessing I could unwind the wires a bit and burn it off with the torch before soldering.

Usually I see some of the molasses-colored flux residue on the wires, so I guess that is the explanation for the lack of it in this case.
Old 07-15-2013, 07:37 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Bob,
I would not normally touch the original ends.
I think , unwind them a little and sand and or scrape it off.
I would not burn it off. There would be residue and metal oxides there instead.

Brian
Old 07-15-2013, 07:45 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

OK, thank you for the advice.
Old 07-15-2013, 08:03 AM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

I'm glad it was something simple. I did something like that not too long ago with a cold solder joint on an ESC lead. Fortunately, I caught it before it blew up the ESC or motor.

Several of us in my area are flying Advances, and they have been virtually bulletproof.
Old 07-15-2013, 01:48 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery


ORIGINAL: serious power

Hi Bob,
Just in case there is a lack of info in their response;
Those are the ends of the actual windings.
The wires are lacquered.
To shorten and solder requires that you remove that high temp coating from each individual strand where you want the solder to bind.

Brian
Actually, the current generation of wire can be soldered if you use enough heat and a good resin cored solder. It's the same wire that's used in inductors and transformers etc. The manufacturer would probably use a small solder pot to tin the wires. Dip them in liquid flux first and then into the solder pot.

Electrics do have dead-sticks occasionally. Normally, poor soldering is the culprit. I'd agree with Plettenberg's assessment that the owner of the motor is very lucky not to have had a total loss with a fire.

Cheers,
Jason.
Old 07-15-2013, 02:15 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery


ORIGINAL: Jason Arnold


ORIGINAL: serious power

Hi Bob,
Just in case there is a lack of info in their response;
Those are the ends of the actual windings.
The wires are lacquered.
To shorten and solder requires that you remove that high temp coating from each individual strand where you want the solder to bind.

Brian
Actually, the current generation of wire can be soldered if you use enough heat and a good resin cored solder. It's the same wire that's used in inductors and transformers etc. The manufacturer would probably use a small solder pot to tin the wires. Dip them in liquid flux first and then into the solder pot.

Electrics do have dead-sticks occasionally. Normally, poor soldering is the culprit. I'd agree with Plettenberg's assessment that the owner of the motor is very lucky not to have had a total loss with a fire.

Cheers,
Jason.
Hi,
What ?????

Brian
Old 07-15-2013, 02:18 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Hi Brian,

Just speaking from my electronics manufacturing background. Used to manufacture coils and transformers years ago. All outsourced now though... :-(

Cheers,
Jason.
Old 07-15-2013, 06:25 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

Just some thoughts for educational purposes:

...heat the connector with a butane torch and fill the connector cup with solder and put some flux on the end of the wire, put it in the cup and let it 'cook', then let it cool.
One issue I see is with putting the wire into the 'pot' of solder. One reason the wire should be pre-tinned is to avoid a 'cold joint'. The metal has to reach a certain temperature for the solder to properly bond to it. So tinning the wire and the connector ensures that solder has properly bonded to each surface. Then when the two tinned surfaces are brought together with heat, the solder bonds to itself and you have a good connection.

Many people don't realize the heat source (soldering iron/gun/torch) should not directly heat the solder. It should heat the wire or connector, and the wire/connector should get hot enough to melt the solder, thus being hot enough for the bond.

It seems like it would also be faster to directly heat and tin the wire/connector as opposed to waiting for the pot of solder to convect heat to the wire.
Old 07-18-2013, 12:56 PM
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Default RE: Pletty Advance mystery

ORIGINAL: danamania

...My money is on the prop. While I may lose this little bet with myself, what will make me even more sad is if it's the motor...
Well I lost this little bet with myself, LOL, but I am happy that it's not the motor! Good flying at the Nats next week guys, and, well, good soldering too! Cheers!
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