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Digital throw meters. Anything new?

Old 12-28-2014, 09:23 AM
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mups53
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Default Digital throw meters. Anything new?

Hello everyone.
I just found out the Hanger 9 has discontinued the popular HAN192 AnglePro throw and incidence meter.
I have no idea why because t was a really good seller. So I have the Budd Laser Units and left without another decent throw meter.
The others are all analog. In the future I will reintroduce the Gator-RC Products Magic Gadget as we need it.
Till then I'd be open to suggestions. Homemade?????
http://www.f3aunlimited.com/anglepro...er-by-hangar-9
Thanks, Mike Mueller
Old 12-28-2014, 10:15 AM
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kdunlap
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Mike,
The Miracle K-012 Throw Meter is absolutely stellar. It is an analog meter with a ball bearing movement. I would put it up against an electronic meter. It is very light and does not deflect the control surface. The AnglePro is heavy and the servo winds up fighting against it. With good eyes you can probably get +/- .25 degrees accuracy. Or +/- .5 degrees. The key here is that these readings are repeatable. The digitalis are less so. I think I paid $25 or so. Just a thought.
Ken
Old 12-28-2014, 05:10 PM
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Mike,
If you need any help getting the Magic Gadget back to the market, just let me know what I can do to help
With only a lightweight carbon rod attached to the surface, it's an ideal and elegant simple to use design.
Old 12-28-2014, 06:48 PM
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Mike,
In the homemade category I have made a simple incidence meter that uses a laser level.Key points are:-It uses the horizontal light from a standard laser level.
The light is reflected from a mirror mounted on a clamp bar back to a scale mounted on the laser level.
As long as you remember that the light beam diverts twice the angular movement of the wing and the scale
must always be at the correct distance from the mirror it is pretty straight forward.
The scale reads to 0.05 degrees per division and it is easy to see a half division change so it’s quite sensitive.
Sensor bar is light so it doesn't distort the surface.
There is a detailed description on this site http://www.nswpattern.org.au/Blog/En...ce%20Meter.pdf. These pics should give the idea of how it works. Would also be easy to add a mirror to an existing clamp bar. Main trick is to get the calibration right.
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Old 12-28-2014, 09:52 PM
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shannah
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Originally Posted by mups53
Hello everyone.
I just found out the Hanger 9 has discontinued the popular HAN192 AnglePro throw and incidence meter.
I have no idea why because t was a really good seller. So I have the Budd Laser Units and left without another decent throw meter.
The others are all analog. In the future I will reintroduce the Gator-RC Products Magic Gadget as we need it.
Till then I'd be open to suggestions. Homemade?????
http://www.f3aunlimited.com/anglepro...er-by-hangar-9
Thanks, Mike Mueller
That's too bad. I really liked that tool. It was easy to use and lightweight. Before I got that tool I was using the Robart incidence meter, but only the mounting parts. I glued a balsa block onto the aluminum bar and I used it to mount a SmartLevel on the bar. I also used my iPhone with a digital level app. I was able to place either the SmartLevel or my iPhone on the incidence meter mount. It worked pretty well. But the H9 tool is lighter and is therefore easier to use.
Old 12-29-2014, 07:19 AM
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Similar to Mr Hannah here---I used a couple of servo screws to fix a short section of steel ruler to the aluminium bar off a laser gadget (the pivot was far too fiddly)


and then I attach a Wixey digital gauge via its magnet:
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Old 12-29-2014, 08:25 AM
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Mike,

Thanks for asking for suggestions.

I'd like to get a MU-9000X USB. Details can be seen at

http://www.aeroperfect.com/mu-9000x_usb.html

Put me on your preorder list, please.


Thanks, J e r
Old 12-29-2014, 10:40 AM
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Anthony-RCU
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I have one of the Great Planes laser incidence meters. Unfortunately, that was discontinued a long time ago as well.
Old 01-04-2015, 08:24 AM
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mups53
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Thanks everyone for the great feedback.
I think I'll get to work on the Gator-RC Products Magic Gadget reintroduction.
The HAN192 Hanger 9 unit was nice but to be honest far from perfect. It was heavy on the control surfaces and it would slip too. Making it hard to use correctly.
Mike
Old 01-04-2015, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mups53
Thanks everyone for the great feedback.
I think I'll get to work on the Gator-RC Products Magic Gadget reintroduction.
The HAN192 Hanger 9 unit was nice but to be honest far from perfect. It was heavy on the control surfaces and it would slip too. Making it hard to use correctly.
Mike
Mike, I assume your Magic Gadget is the same as Ivan's which I used years ago. It worked great, but I believe it required tubes to be built into the surfaces which I installed during construction. I never figured out how to install them on a completed airplane. We need some type of tool like the hinge centering tools to assure the wire/tubes are installed properly.

Jim O
Old 01-04-2015, 04:17 PM
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Actually, Jim, I just punched the wire into the TE of the surface and used the tubing to mark the 5" point on the wire.

IMG had some drawbacks, too.
a) The plane has to be on a really stable surface with room to set up the gauge. That might end up being a really big surface for a sizeable plane.
b) Accuracy and repeatability depends a lot on the ability of the user to place the gauge arc exactly 5" from the hinge line.
c) Modern aerobatic craft may have surfaces so large that 5" isn't enough.
d) Parallax from wire to gauge.
e) The two wooden rods supporting the gauge always seem to be too long or too short.
f) The clip holding the gauge plate onto the dowel often interferes with the wire.
g) Wind is a problem.

I'm sure there are more issues with IMG I've forgotten since I went to the Hanger 9. IMG is a PITA, but the battery never runs down.
Old 09-04-2015, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by f3a05
Similar to Mr Hannah here---I used a couple of servo screws to fix a short section of steel ruler to the aluminium bar off a laser gadget (the pivot was far too fiddly)


and then I attach a Wixey digital gauge via its magnet:

Hi,
I was going to get a couple of these at the end of the season for 'knock about work', bringing to the field etc.
Seemed like a handy unit.
Then just recently I checked out a friends model which had been set up with one of these ( can't speak for how he used it - said he had the model stabilised ! ).
Anyway, according to my meter, one wing panel was 0.23* out relative to the other - there was also a twist in one panel which complicated the comparative reading.

So this morning I went on Wixey's website.
To be fair to them they only claim Accuracy at 0.2* and Repeatability at 0.1*.
That is a possible compound error of approaching 0.3*. Even the 0.2* accuracy is not good enough for our purposes imo.
One can of course use a method to improve the accuracy of this but that is a pita.

Brian
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Old 09-04-2015, 02:51 AM
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Niall
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Brian,
The slightly more expensive version, WR300 Type 1 is slightly better with an accuracy of +/-0.1, and a repeatability of +/- 0.1


Niall


[TABLE="width: 592"]
[TR]
[TD]
  • Easy to Use
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"][TABLE="width: 540"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 250"][/TD]
[TD="width: 50"][/TD]
[TD="width: 250"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 250"]Super strong magnets securely attach the digital angle gauge to saw blades.[/TD]
[TD="width: 50"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 250"]Press the ZERO button to calibrate the angle gauge to any reference surface.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
  • Specifications
[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="align: center"][TABLE="width: 570"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: txt75, align: right"]Range:[/TD]
[TD]+/- 180 degrees[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: txt75, align: right"]Resolution:[/TD]
[TD]0.1 degrees[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: txt75, align: right"]Accuracy:[/TD]
[TD]+/- 0.1 degrees[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: txt75, align: right"]Repeatability :[/TD]
[TD]+/- 0.1 degrees[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: txt75, align: right"]Size:[/TD]
[TD]2" x 2" x 1.3"[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: txt75, align: right"]Battery:[/TD]
[TD]3.0V CR2032[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: txt75, align: right"]Auto Shut Off:[/TD]
[TD]for extended battery life[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
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[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Old 09-04-2015, 03:24 AM
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Niall,
Thanks.
I just looked up the one my club-mate has.
Though even that with a resolution of 0.1 and repeatability of +/- 0.1 has a possible compound error of at least approaching 0.2*, or more as you take multiple readings.
Maybe it's better than the spec,, . I wouldn't bet on that though.

Brian
Old 09-04-2015, 05:25 AM
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Xicoy have added angle sensors to their CG machine. Resolution is 0.01, I ask if they could provide 0.01 and they responded that they couldn't at this time. A nice feature is that there are 3 sensors and one serves as the zero reference. Overall a nice system but, as the angle sensors are an add on to the CG system, it's pricey.


http://www.ultimate-jets.net/product...-angle-sensors
Old 09-04-2015, 09:47 PM
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Here is an article on hacking a cheap inclinometer for use as a throw meter or incidence meter. A new 3D printed enclosure/clamp would be nice.
http://www.mfhb.org.nz/joomla/index....cles&Itemid=98

My hanger 9 unit is still good. It has the same accuracy as the inclinometer used in the article.

My ideal unit would be an Arduino with tilt sensor and bluetooth transmitter to an app on my phone or tablet.

Last edited by RodneyFord; 09-04-2015 at 10:10 PM.
Old 09-05-2015, 12:51 AM
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Hi Rodney,
Your suggestion re the Arduino is a good one. We used one of those (or one similar) to convert a scale Bleriot to a drone 4 or 5 years ago for a replica flight.
The sensors on it were great.
I had a hanger9 laser unit about 10 years ago. As it came the resolution was spoiled by the drag in the bearings.
I solved this by removing the balancing thumb screw and remounting it on a home made bracket which was made to hang it about 120mm to 150mm lower.
This increased the pendulum effect by something in the order of 300% to 500% and completely cured the resolution issues.
It then had to mounted on the rear of the bar (clear of the panel being measured).
However I made a new scale for a longer bar and it was accurate to and resolving to inside 0.025*.
Downside ; It was a pig on batteries
We forked out for an Aeroperfect when it came along. A few of us got one between us, including Niall above. Cheap when spread over multiple F3A models.
Unfortunately he has supply chain issues now.
There is a gap in the market for something of high quality.

Brian
Old 09-18-2015, 12:33 PM
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olnico
 
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Hello guys.

I have made numerous tests with the Xicoy angle meters.
The accuracy is 0.1 degrees and repeatability extremely good.

What I found out is that a slight change in the position of the sensor would introduce an error of 0.5 to 0.7 degree on the flight control.
So I came up with a laser 3D printed solution to improve the stability of the device.





The sensor mount is locked in position with blue tack paste or similar.
http://www.ultimate-jets.net/collect...-sensor-mounts

After having obtained a perfect stability, I still could not reproduce my throws to better than 0.3 to 0.4 degree on a flight control, whereas the sensor would invariably return an accuracy of 0.1 degree on fixed reference surfaces.

What I found out is that a number of things influence the positioning of the flight control.
1. Servo positioning accuracy
2. Servo gear clearance
3. Ball link flexibility ( resin ball link ) or play ( alloy ball link )
4. Control hing clearance and flexibility

I see on the posts above that 0.2 degree resolution is not good enough for you and some are looking at 0.02 degrees.
My question is: do you really manage to get the flight controls to such level of repeatability?
If yes, how do you achieve this?

How do you get the following:
1. servo positioning accuracy equal or less than 0.01 degree
2. Servo gear clearance minimized to get and control arm positioning at 0.01 degree
3. Ball link with clearance less than 1/10 mm
4. Super stiff hinge with clearance less than 1/10 degree

I am looking at super precise flight control setup for F3J but cannot achieve more than 0.3-0.4 degree right now with the best servos, alloy control arms, ball links and hinge that I know.
Your help would be much appreciated.

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