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cost per flight hour vs. glow

Old 09-12-2007, 10:23 PM
  #1  
kaos2
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Default cost per flight hour vs. glow

Like anyone else with a job cost does figure into my hobbies. I've only flown glow in the past, but this past weekend I was able to watch a few of the electrics fly an was rather impressed. I'm crious I know the initial cost of electric is higher, but is that cost recovered in the life of the batteries vs the cost of glow fuel? What is the expected life span of your battery packs? What are the advantages of going electric other than little to no noise, and no mess? I'm looking primarily at 2 different classes of electrics those that would be the equivelent of a 40-60 glow, and those that would be typicaly used in a 2 meter pattern ship.
Old 09-13-2007, 02:15 AM
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PatternPilot
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

Hello,

I did this cost break down 3 years ago , but I don't have the info with me. Yes your right the start up is a bit high but here is a way to think about it.
Battery charger get one bigger than current needs like one for a 10-12 cell pack and grow into it.
Batteries, Ask around who is using what, just be careful, I would not even look at anything with a c rating less than 25 these days.

when doing cost break down on a glow remember
fuel per gallon and break it down per OZ and how much a aircraft tank of fuel cost
Bearing replacement
glow plugs
props
papertowels
cleaner
electric starter, brushes
12v gel cel every 2 years
glow driver
servo repoting or replacment from vibration
electric fuel pump almost every season or so.
spare parts and maintence

Electric

motor no bearing replacement
speed controller
main battery packs you can do a contest on 2 set but 3 better
chargers x2
AC to DC power supply iota high amp out put aprox 125.00 on ebay
no cleaning,
no noise- fly early in the morning before everyone else
not a bunch of stuff to clean and degrease after use
no oil on hands and transmitter
no servo replacement
PLUG and PLAY

well hope some of this helps, and I'm sure I might have missed something.

I have been electric for 3 years and have no plans going back to glow anytime soon


Scott Anderson
Team Castle Creations
Team Tanicpacks.com

Old 09-13-2007, 07:34 AM
  #3  
J Lachowski
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

Scott your are over simplifying things here.

You will need servo pots replaced sooner or later, but probably can go 2X plus as many flights per replacement. You still have to clean your plane occasionally (grass, dust, oil from inconsiderate glowies<g>). From my experience you really need 4 sets of batteries and 5 chargers to do it right. You can then charge 4 sets of batteries plus your receiver pack in about 2 hours, otherwise you can spend all evening charging your packs. I don't believe in charging at 10S. I prefer separate 5S packs. You also need to fly 6 flights to get the equivalent practice you would get with 4 flights on a glow setup.

Scott you also forgot to mention that if you have no available power at the field, you will need a small generator if you want to fly all day. Also, contrary to belief, your electric motor/ controller may have something go wrong with it sooner or later (bearing, magnets, gear wear if using a geared system). If you're using a geared system like a Hacker C50 you will need to relube the gearbox about every 50 flights. I have relubed my Hacker twice so far. It only takes an hour or so to do including removal and installation from the airframe. Not a big deal, at least so far.

I still own only one glow plane in my whole fleet right now. Once it is sold, I will get rid of all of my glow support gear. I have made my commitment to electric. Hopefully, I won't regret it in the long run.

I have limited experience with an electric 2 meter ship, 120 plus flights so far this year. I do have many many flights on the smaller stuff though over the last 3 years. I decided on 4 sets of batteries only because I could go to the field in the evening after work and knock off 4 quick flights and go home and throw things on charge at home. On the weekends and contests, I carry my small Honda 1000i generator. In reality my up front costs were close to $4K(chargers, balancers, generator, power supply, 4 sets of Lipos). I'm a case for the extreme side, but then again I fly alot and try to opitimize my use of time. There are other things in life that need to be tended to<g>.

Oh, as far a break even with glow goes, that is questionable. A lot has to do with how you go about doing it. In some cases, you may never reach it. I personally think justifying getting into electric based on costs is fuedal. You either want to do it or you don't. At first I had my doubts until I figured out how to manage flight energy. Some people tend to try and fly electrics too slow and that is what I caught myself doing initially. I fly with large capacity packs only (5350's). Those trying to fly with anything less than 4600ma capacity packs are kidding themselves. And 4600ma is cutting it close. People try to paint electric as the greatest thing, but it is not. It requires a different mind set. It is not plug and play. You have to exercise a lot of discipline in what you do with it or it is going to bite you in the butt and some cases big time.

As far as what size plane to get. Get an Aspera or Vanquish first and then decide whether you want to go bigger at a later date. Bigger will always fly better of course. I have a Vanquish just about ready to go and from what I have read, these two airplanes fly quite well for there size.


Oh. My only sponsor is my wallet. It is almost empty<g>
Old 09-13-2007, 01:46 PM
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

kaos, we have a sale going on right now that should make electric a little more attractive.

We are overstocked on these impressive packs. To take advantage of these sale prices you have to call us at 800 979 9794 and speak with Lana.

Sale Prices (good while stock lasts)
These Prices Include Courier, Trackable Shipping!
[link=http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/TP-5000-5SX/RC-PARTS-THUNDER-POWER-5-CELL-LITHIUM-BATTERIES.html]Thunder Power eXtreme Series 5s5000[/link]- $231
Thunder Power eXtreme Series 6s5000 - $252
Thunder Power eXtreme Series 10s5000 - $461

Adam Glatt
Draganfly Innovations Inc
Old 09-13-2007, 02:19 PM
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J Lachowski
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

Only means one thing, something new and better is on the horizon<g>
Old 09-13-2007, 06:31 PM
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sparky925
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

I have gone to electric this year in a 2 meter ship. Cost per flight is hard to do as J Lachowski mentioned, But i Scott made good sense too.
It depends on how muc h you intend to fly, and how much you accually fly. More often we intend to fly 15-20 filghts per week, but it ends up being more like 10 flights over the weekend.
I wentr to electric because i can keep 2 sets of batteries ready to go and get a couple flights after work, before dark. I dont need to bring chargers and other gear t othe field, just plane, transmitter and 4 batteries.

You will need a good charging source for the packs of course, and not just any generator will do!, i found this out. We have 110V at our field so practice is not a problem.

I beleive in charging 10 cells with the Thunder Power charger and balancer. This way the cells are always balanced before flight, and after flights i hook up the balancer while the packs are cooling down..about 15 minutes or so. By the time i start to charge again, the packs are balanced, and of course during charging the packs stay as close to balanced as possinle, with final balancing done after charging is complete.

If you figure just battery cost to fuel conumption (30% heli with a YS 1.60 @ 9 flights per gallon) you are still looking at electric being nearly even money!..dont jump down my throat here, this is just a generalization, but as close as i can come based on $20.00/ gallon, and $550 per battery set getting about 250 cycles per set. 250/9 per gallon= 28@ $20.00 gallons is about $560.00! Cheaper, well of course ont over all, but in this 1 case it looks more attractive!

Very general info, but its why i went electric!!
Old 09-14-2007, 05:08 AM
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Magne
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

Hello.

This type of comparison always brings up a lot of thoughts and opinions.
This is my experience, after 4 years of flying 2m electric planes.

So far I have had a total of 11 sets of 10s batteries, 4 different makes.
NONE of the packs have exceeded 100 flights, most have died after about 50.
One pack is brand new, less than 10 flights, excellent performance this far.
Two packs have 30 and 31 flights, still reasonable performance, but noticeable down from new.
One pack is at 81 flights, this is actually an older pack without balancing plugs, still going ok.
All other packs have failed.

In my opinion, there is just no point in comparing cost per flight.
If you want to fly electric, it has to be for other reasons then to save money.
(But then again, if you wanted to save money, you would not be flying RC models at all, certainly not Pattern.)

On the up-side, batteries are improving all the time, and technology is changing. I am very curious about the A123's.

And as Joe wrote earlier (post #3), to make electric flight practical, you need a lot of batteries and chargers, and the batteries need to have sufficient capacity. Two battery packs and one charger simply is not going to do it.

Just my opinion/experience.
Your mileage may differ.

Magne
Old 09-14-2007, 07:45 AM
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mups53
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

Really great points being made. This is my 1st full year doing the E. thing. The way I've done it so far has been very economical. The 2 packs I use right now are performing great. TP 5000 10S extreme and a set of FP 5000 5s's. I have 2 chargers but I see no problem with using only 2 packs. I bought both packs 2nd hand for about 1/2 their original price. OK I got lucky.
The beginning of the season had me questioning my decision to go the E. route. I started off the season with 2 polyquest 4300 packs and they were great but had deteriation after only 30 flights. They were not good enough for the demands of FAI. I also had a new Hextroniks 4100 pack that was good for about 20 flights and showed deteriation. The packs weren't shot or puffy they just didn't have the strength that I needed to be competitive.
The lesson I learned was get the best brand of Lipo's available with the most mils your plane will allow for weight. Run overweight if you have too and stay within the 80% rules at all times. Limit your flight times to get in 1 sequence and land.
If you bought stuff the way I have this year it's economical to go the E. route.
I didn't get too burnt on the 1st 3 packs because I found people who could use them for a less demanding use. Mike Mueller
I'm running an Axi F3a with the 20x13E APC pulling around 68 amps.
Old 09-14-2007, 09:07 AM
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Chris Moon
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

So far I have 3 packs: 2- Thunder Power 5300 Pro-Lite packs that I bought for about $625 per set and one Flight Power 5350 matched set that I bought for $535. The Thunder Power packs have 105 and 110 cycles on them and are still very strong. If there is any degradation, it is not enough to affect performance. My Flight Power pack has about 65 cycles and is still very strong as well. I have only 1 Thunder Power 1010 charger and the 210 balancer and I have always charged the packs together in series as 10S. So far my flight costs have been:

TP pack 1 $625/110 = $5.68 per flight
TP pack 2 $625/105 = $5.95 per flight
FP Pack $535/65 = $8.23 per flight

These costs are if I threw the batteries out right now and of course that won't happen. The cost per flight is constantly going down as the cycles go up. Also, you must figure in that I have spent $0.00 on motor maintenance so far and spent another $0.00 on airframe maintenance due to the lack of vibration. The plane has only some minor hangar rash from me but is otherwise in brand new condition. You have to consider the increased longevity of the airframe too when you look at costs of electric vs. glow.

That said, you still cannot make a dollar for dollar comparison for glow vs. electric. Glow is still cheaper. It's getting closer but they are not equal.....yet
Old 09-14-2007, 09:26 AM
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mups53
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

YS 170 engine with a hatori pipe and header and the proper Hyde mount. Around $1000. Fuel about $3 a flight. Airframe wrecking vibration and oily discharcge that seeps into everything. Constant problems and expense of parts breaking and trips back and forth to Verano. UPS will kill you alone. Where's the debate? For my $ E. has been a lot cheaper.
We are running $100 Dualsky outrunners or the AXI generics Atlas for less that $150. The power I'm getting is as good as any glow system I have seen. It does not suffer in the wind or heat either.
The Atlas comes with a 3 year no ?'s warranty. TP and Hobby Lobby has the best customer service, much better than the glow company's I have dealt with. Mike
Old 09-14-2007, 09:53 AM
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

Yes, I love flower power and won't go back for much the same reasons as others have stated. The only valid argument as far as cost is that you have to buy your "fuel" up front. The analogy would be to having to buy drums of glow fuel up front before you can run your new YS 1.70 the first time rather than buy it by the single gallon or case. Electrics make you buy your fuel up front and that gives the impression of much higher costs.
Any high performance glow set up is going to cost you about at least $2 per flight for fuel. Probably more but let's say $2. Now add in a motor maintenance cost per flight and an intangible airframe wear cost and it is close for sure to the electric cost assuming you get at least 150 cycles per battery pack. The issue will always be up front costs that you need to pony up in order to play.
Old 09-14-2007, 01:05 PM
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

I agree with most that's been said here. BUT
Similar to MUPS I looked for some used equipment and set up my new plane for only Bout $500.000 more than to set it up glow.
I was putting together a new plane & I priced out a new YS motor & all the goodies to get it airborne then I priced out my electric setup & going from memory only it seems it was less than $500.00 difference.

BTW I justified a Honda generator for hurricane use - it paid off last nite as Humberto gave us a direct visit
Eddie
Old 09-14-2007, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

I believe it is hard to make a calculation on cost difference between electric and glow.

You need to by a lighter plane and more exclusive parts to an electric F3A-plane to become below 5 kilogram. That will cost a lot off money compare to a glow version. If you are at the limit 5 kilogram (who is more common on electrical planes) it will be hard to make reparation.

An electric plane will last longer. You will have less reparation. You will not get any oil in to your car. You will get less emergency landing with an electrical F3A-plane.

A glow engine will not last for ever. You do need to refit parts who has been worn-out. Same thing with the soft mount.

If you fly more than 200 flights/ year and always save 25 to 20 % of the battery energy after flight. The battery cost and the foul cost will be almost the same. Maybe the battery will bee cheaper.

I have one electrical 2 meters F3A-plane and two with YS. I think the biggest difference is the flying style between electrical and glow. My electrical has more power upwards but les speed. It is much easier to fly slowly with the electrical and it is easier to fly in windy condition with my YS.

I believe gasoline engine is the most cost-effective. But it is probably a rezone way the best F3A-pilots don’t has gasoline engines.
Old 09-14-2007, 05:30 PM
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

What a potential storm this thread is

Nope you can't compare the 2. Do what you want, and don't listen to which is better. Decide which is better for YOU.

The beauty is that pattern guys will torture test stuff and push it to it's limit. If it has a weakness, we'll expose it in short order.

Electrics don't have to cost an arm and a leg. We're testing a motor right now that cost about $65.00 and you just wouldn't believe it. it's just about on par with the AXI F3A, only 100 rpms difference, 2 amps and 100 watts. Temp is very low, it's very smooth and quiet, powerful, and weighs about 1.5 ounces less than the AXI. Good quality bearings too. Time will tell how well it holds up, but it was in Emory's plane last weekend at the Huntsville contest. My guess is nobody that didn't know better had a clue he was running a motor that cheap. And that's just one of many. Electrics are about to bust wide open boys, say goodbye to $1000 motors and controllers.

Batteries: Well, they are still up there, but getting MUCH better. I'm totally sold on the Vampower stuff myself. It's less expensive, POWERFUL and so far, very reliable.

So I don't think you can use cost as a large consideration anymore...or at least, not for long.

Still the packs do cost a good bit and you have to give them some special care and attention. Many I know (myself included) like to make a LOT of flights at the field when the opportunity exists. It can still be done with electrics, but it requires either more planning or more packs overall.

Still, I love my YS. Uber powerful, ready to go as long as you have fuel, and so far the only time mine has been back to the shop has been the one time it plowed in with a lost plane. That's it. (Now watch, I'll show up at the next contest and dead stick LOL). I didn't like the YS engines before the DZ 160, because my experiences were similar. I wouldn't touch YS until the 160. Now I really like it.

Bottom line, figure out which one you can work with best and make the jump. Both have a long list of pros and cons, just pick one and roll with it [8D]

or, do both!!

-Mike
Old 09-14-2007, 11:56 PM
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tewalker01
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

Mike,

Assuming that this motor passes your testing, when will it be available to the general public?

Terry
Old 09-21-2007, 06:17 PM
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

Although it is very difficult to compare them, this year I have seen 2 big crashes due to vibration, and those YS had Hyde soft mounts. For my point of view loosing $3.000 due to engine vibration is a very big plus for electrics, well that is if batteries don't catch fire
Old 09-21-2007, 07:42 PM
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

^^ good point, just make shure you don't loose the lipo powering the plane, a little creepy with the battery being held in with velcro on foamies... just my thingie, i know this is for cars but a gallon of fuel @ ~ 25 and a 160 CC fuel tank equal about $1.00 a run
Old 09-22-2007, 05:32 PM
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Default RE: cost per flight hour vs. glow

I gave up on Lipos for any big models -too much $$ for too little fun
My next electric "pattern plane " scoff if you will -is another of my old Zlins - rather small and too scale etc etc.. but these flew well and I can do it with 6 A123 cells and a 60 size EFlite - the pack cost ? 66 bucks
how many needed?
one. just charge it while you relax a little .no heating no waiting etc- Iam flying two smaller models -getting the feel for what is really good and what is not -so far it is all positive.
my 2m new plane is slowly coming along -may end up electric instead of the ZDZ40F3A --which does work extemely well -

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