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JR 12X battery charging ???

Old 04-22-2010, 12:00 AM
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Patterndude1
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Default JR 12X battery charging ???

Hey guys, me and a fellow pattern flyer from my field are experiencing trouble with the charging of the battery pack in the transmitter. When you charge them for a long period of time the battery loses voltage because apparently it overheates or something? I was just wondering why does the 12x have a charger that destroys the battery pack?

Thanks,


PS: Other than that we love it. lol
Matt
Old 04-22-2010, 09:33 AM
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apereira
 
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

Very easy to overcharge, I have the same problem, but mine looses charge in a period of 7 days, once is discharged below 9.6V I charge it until the charger finishes (fixed time), but if my battery is charged then I use the charger until the batteries get hot, then disconnect it.

I started using my TP 610 charger to charge them now, as I do not trust the supplied anymore, when I called Horizon they told me I needed to read the instructions on the web site on how to do it, as they don't see a problem, or to send the battery for a check up(I know it will pass as mine discharges if I don't use it but capacity seems ok), when he told me about the charging instructions I told him I never had that issue with my 10X (over 6 years), but I really though to myself "I'm not stupid, I own several radios and any existing type of battery, I have several chargers and over 20 years experience, there is a problem and is not me!!!!" but in reality, I know the guy did not care and gave me a McDonalds answer (meaning, reading something about that to any customer that calls with this problem) so I said "thank you for your help" and I will figure it out" don't get me wrong, I'm not talking crap about Horizon, it's just that guy, I have received a fabulous service from Horizon thought the years when needed service on my radios and am very satisfied with them.

Regards
Old 04-22-2010, 10:47 AM
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TonyF
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

OK, I will give an answer that may not be the company line, but it is what has worked very well for me. I have never used the supplied wall charger on all my JR TX's for years. All I use to charge mine is my Orbit Microlader charger, set to NiMH chemistry and in the reflex mode, at 1.5 amps. In 5 or 6 years I have only had one pack lose capacity.

NiMH batteries, IMO, are far more sensitive to overcharging then NiCads. And if fast charged they need to be done correctly. I'm sure any of the current chargers out there that have provisions for NiMH would work fine. But unless it is monitored closely, I wouldn't use the wall charger. Again, this is just what has worked very well for me.

Here is a link to a service bulletin regarding charging the 12X,

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=JRP1200
Old 04-22-2010, 11:27 AM
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underdw
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

It takes 8-10 hours to charge, but I'm supposed to monitor the temperature and not leave them unattended?????
....and they tend to false peak if using a peak detection charger, so that would have to be monitored.
With a $1400 radio, it would sure be nice to have a long-life, plug-in-and-leave-alone-to-charge battery.
(the above complaint directed at JR, not Tony!)
Old 04-22-2010, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???


ORIGINAL: underdw

It takes 8-10 hours to charge, but I'm supposed to monitor the temperature and not leave them unattended?????
....and they tend to false peak if using a peak detection charger, so that would have to be monitored.
With a $1400 radio, it would sure be nice to have a long-life, plug-in-and-leave-alone-to-charge battery.
(the above complaint directed at JR, not Tony!)
I'd recommend converting to Lithium cells if it is physically possible. I've used them for many years and enjoyed their advantages. Charging is fast and safe, no question if they are charged or not, very low self discharge, and voltage is good indication of state of charge to name a few.

I have helped a friend install a set in his JR and we put in a dropping resistor to limit the voltage to 10 volts. He is very happy.

Jim
Old 04-22-2010, 01:01 PM
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apereira
 
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

There is a specific page on the manual that says you can not use LiPo in the radio, and as underdw said, they false peak a lot!! I modified my original 10X pack with NiMh and worked great!! at least for one more year until I sold it, I think the problem is on the batteries themselves.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/ProdInfo...Resolution.pdf page I-25 for the LiPo reference, but thanks a lot for the suggestion.
Regards
Old 04-22-2010, 01:15 PM
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???


ORIGINAL: apereira

There is a specific page on the manual that says you can not use LiPo in the radio, and as underdw said, they false peak a lot!! I modified my original 10X pack with NiMh and worked great!! at least for one more year until I sold it, I think the problem is on the batteries themselves.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/ProdInfo...Resolution.pdf page I-25 for the LiPo reference, but thanks a lot for the suggestion.
Regards
The reason not to use them is clearly stated as being too high a voltage. That is why we limited the voltage to 10 volts which is less than a fully charged NiMh. And by the way LiPos never false peak with a proper charger because they don't use peak detection. Another big advantage.

However, if one doesn't understand this stuff, stick to the manufacturer's recommendation.
Old 04-22-2010, 01:32 PM
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underdw
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

Apereira,
No, the radio already has NimH and it is they that false peak (according to JR's bulletin).
I'd love to have some Lipos, Li-ion, or A123 in the radio, but as you point out they are not approved.
As OhD implies, there really isn't any reason it can't be done - just not a plug and play situation.

Dan
Old 04-22-2010, 02:13 PM
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

Also maybe not company line.....but I have never used the stock 12X charger for the TX. I have 2 12X batteries that have been flawless to date.

I believe in formatting Nimh batteries....and have used the same process for many years. With all new Nimh batteries, I charge with my Ace Dual Metered Vari Charger at 1/10 C for 12-14 hours, then discharge on my Sirius Test at 500 mah. I repeat this cycle 3-5 times, until I am getting consistent discharge numbers. I also do this with any Nicd batteries to establish a baseline for their health, and I recommend periodically charging at 1/10 C and discharging to see if the health of the battery is deteriorating or not. Once my batteries have been formatted, I use a Sirius Smart charger for fast charging, or my TP1010 (at 500 mah, or 1 amp), and if they sit for an extended period of time without use (more than 3 months), I'll go back to 1-2 cycles of slow charging / discharging to make sure things are ok.

With traditional Nimh batteries, they will get warm at the end of the charge cycle (exothermic in nature), but they should not be hot (whether slow or fast charged). I don't know if this is true or not for some of the newer hydbrid types and Eneloop cells.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart
Team Horizon / JR / Spektrum, Team Castle Creations, Tech Aero
Old 04-22-2010, 03:08 PM
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

Hey Dan,

Please , read the post sequence again, I know about the Lipos, that's why I posted the manual link, it's there, can not be used, and I do have the 12X, the 10X I'm referring to used to come with NiCd and when they failed I changed them to NIMh and never had problems, I have the same problems as all of you with my NiMH on the 12X I have, but mine doesn't loose the charge in one day, it does it in a week, some times in two weeks. If some one uses the charger as the instructions in the radio will probably burn them, they really really get hot, not warm.

OhD, what I always keep in mind is, if the manufacturer tells you don't do this and you do it, then that will void the three year warranty.

Dave, I stopped using the provided wall charger because if the batteries had still more than 9.9 or 10V will really overheat, I haven't measured the temperature, but it was hot.


The thing is, the wall charger will not stop by Delta Peak, but rather by time limit, so there should be no false charges, but in the other hand if the batteries have a good charge for a day of 4 flights and wants to recharge for next day, then it will overheat. The battery is protected for overheat and will shutoff the wall charger, but they also says you should not charge above 11V the first cycles, but was not mentioned a year ago (I think) when I got my first 12X, so it is not very clear at this point on what is the best method, in my opinion of course.



REgards
Old 04-22-2010, 03:22 PM
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

Cell Formation

All cells should (must) go thru one controlled charge/ discharge cycle.
This cycle will get the chemistry in the battery working correctly.
Some cell vendors do this, some use it a sorting process other vendors skip this step.

Note: enloop cells go thru a good formation process. The marketing plan for the enloop is for the consumer that just wants a battery that works when it comes out of the package and as a bonus can be charged.

The charger that the vendor supplies with the product is not designed for cell Formation.

Lithium Batteries NEED to have this done. The chemistry on the anode is created during this cycle.

With the good chargers we have today we can do this and we should.

Mark
Old 04-22-2010, 03:59 PM
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???


ORIGINAL: apereira

Hey Dan,

Please , read the post sequence again, I know about the Lipos, that's why I posted the manual link, it's there, can not be used, and I do have the 12X, the 10X I'm referring to used to come with NiCd and when they failed I changed them to NIMh and never had problems, I have the same problems as all of you with my NiMH on the 12X I have, but mine doesn't loose the charge in one day, it does it in a week, some times in two weeks. If some one uses the charger as the instructions in the radio will probably burn them, they really really get hot, not warm.

OhD, what I always keep in mind is, if the manufacturer tells you don't do this and you do it, then that will void the three year warranty.

Dave, I stopped using the provided wall charger because if the batteries had still more than 9.9 or 10V will really overheat, I haven't measured the temperature, but it was hot.


The thing is, the wall charger will not stop by Delta Peak, but rather by time limit, so there should be no false charges, but in the other hand if the batteries have a good charge for a day of 4 flights and wants to recharge for next day, then it will overheat. The battery is protected for overheat and will shutoff the wall charger, but they also says you should not charge above 11V the first cycles, but was not mentioned a year ago (I think) when I got my first 12X, so it is not very clear at this point on what is the best method, in my opinion of course.



REgards
I read the charging instructions and it sounds like the charging system should work as the current should drop to less than C/10 near the end of charge. The batteries should take this for many hours before getting too hot. I'd test the batteries with another charger that can be set to 200 ma and cycle them like Dave says. You should be able to get 2000 mah out of them and they shouldn't get hot even after 24 hours of C/10 charging. If those two things don't check out, I'd replace them with batteries that can pass those two requirements. If they do pass, I wouldn't use the supplied charger anymore.

Jim
Old 04-22-2010, 09:49 PM
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

I too had a proplem with the charger provided by JR for the 12X transmitter. The battery got very hot when I charged it the first few times. The charger puts out about 12 volts and as a result the charge current stays high (approx. 450 ma.) and overheats the batttery. I modified the JR charger to limit the output voltage to 11 volts by inserting 2 silcon diodes in the charge lead to the TX. This works but I typically just use a wallwart type charger from a 10X TX.

John W
Old 04-23-2010, 12:33 AM
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

Sounds like the charger is the culprit. They claim it charges at 250 ma when the pack is low and drops off to 180 ma when it nears full charge. Use the charger for something else.

Jim
Old 04-23-2010, 09:18 AM
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Patterndude1
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Default RE: JR 12X battery charging ???

I'm glad im not the only person this has happend to. I just don't feel like sitting there and watching my transmitter charge for 12 hours, I like my free time and I will not waist it on that. I love JR and horizon but since I paid that much for this radio I just expect every part about it to be top quality.

Thanks,



Matt

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