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Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes

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Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes

Old 05-30-2019, 06:45 PM
  #1901  
Brenner
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Originally Posted by big_G View Post
On the Kontronic 600-94, what should I set the static amp limit at? I'm currently at 85 amps, about 65% atv.
It depends on your "flying style". 85 amps will generate about 3000 Watts, which should give you more than enough power for pretty much any type of flying.

One thing to consider is using a Throttle Tech device which will automatically adjust your throttle ATV to equalize your power throughout your flights. This will use up some of your ATV headroom.

Then I would suggest that you fly for a while with more throttle ATV and see if there are any maneuvers or parts of maneuvers that can benefit from a brief increase in power. If there are, then I suggest incrementally reducing your ATV until you are using full throttle during these portions of your flight, and part throttle everywhere else.

This will give you a setup that optimizes your use of power throughout your flight, and also maximizes battery efficiency.

You can take this even further by developing different setups for different wind conditions. You might have a lower throttle ATV for calm days, and a higher throttle ATV for windy days with crosswinds.

If you switch between Lipos and LiHv packs, you can have setups to equalize the performance across these two battery technologies, and if you notice a loss of performance when your packs get old, you can compensate for this as well.

Brenner ...
Old 05-30-2019, 07:05 PM
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Thanks, Brenner. I'm using the Throttle tech, but need to verify that it is operating correctly.

Gary
Old 05-31-2019, 11:51 AM
  #1903  
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Finally got the chance to try the Pyro 600 10 Pole with the V4. Not very different compared to the 14 Pole but it has a bit faster spool up and in general faster throttle response. It runs significantly cooler than the old 14 Pole. Still using my own motor mount. After some adjustments to the first I made some thousand flights ago it works very well. The mount supplied with the V4 drive is too big to fit into the nose of my planes so it is just not an option.

Br,
Henning
Old 06-01-2019, 02:52 AM
  #1904  
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Hi Henning,

Interested to know how the power consumption compares between the 10 pole and 14 pole motor.

Thanks for the idea of the mount. I have made a similar unit for my V4 which has worked flawlessly.
Old 06-04-2019, 11:27 AM
  #1905  
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Hello all. Really informative discussion, learning a lot. I'm considering a using a Pyro 600 and have seen the numerous mentions of someone named Bert who has rewound these motors for 10s use in the Contra V4 system. Since I've got nothing more than "Bert", can anyone offer more informatin and how to contact him? Thanks, Ted.
Old 06-04-2019, 11:45 AM
  #1906  
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Originally Posted by ted32776 View Post
Hello all. Really informative discussion, learning a lot. I'm considering a using a Pyro 600 and have seen the numerous mentions of someone named Bert who has rewound these motors for 10s use in the Contra V4 system. Since I've got nothing more than "Bert", can anyone offer more informatin and how to contact him? Thanks, Ted.
Bert's full name is Bert Dekker. His email is: [email protected]

Bert has been rewinding Kontronik 10 pole Pyro 600 motors since the V4 Contra was introduced so that they have a kv value that is close to the current 14 pole Kontronik Pyro 600 motor.

Bert will purchase a 10 pole motor for you and then rewind it. He will also install an extended shaft in it and balance the rotor. His prices are very reasonable, however, I recommend that you contact him directly to get an actual quote.

Kontronik has also agreed to provide 10 pole Pyro 600 motors direct for the V4 Contra, but the winding that Kontronik uses is not the same as the winding that Bert uses. Bert is rewinding his motors by hand so he can do more than Kontronik can do so his motors deliver more power, and are slightly more efficient.

Brenner ...
Old 06-04-2019, 03:02 PM
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Perfect. Didn't expect such a fast response. Thanks, Ted.
Old 06-20-2019, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE: After my first flight, I reduced my throttle ATV to 80%. At this setting, I had as much power and speed as I thought I would need. This setup was still very fast, and it had unlimited vertical at half throttle. After another ten or so flights I increased my throttle ATV to 90%, and I am considering going to 100%. I very rarely fly at full throttle, but I find that there are certain maneuvers where an extra boost of power is helpful. One example of this is upline snaps.

Brenner: Just curious.....what are you using for a throttle curve? Is it a straight line from zero to whatever you set as maximum throttle? After 8 minutes of flying my new BJ Craft Eternity, I typically consume a little over 4000 ma which seems a bit high and I never approach full throttle during any maneuver.

Mike
Old 06-20-2019, 04:42 PM
  #1909  
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Originally Posted by FLYERSG View Post
QUOTE: After my first flight, I reduced my throttle ATV to 80%. At this setting, I had as much power and speed as I thought I would need. This setup was still very fast, and it had unlimited vertical at half throttle. After another ten or so flights I increased my throttle ATV to 90%, and I am considering going to 100%. I very rarely fly at full throttle, but I find that there are certain maneuvers where an extra boost of power is helpful. One example of this is upline snaps.

Brenner: Just curious.....what are you using for a throttle curve? Is it a straight line from zero to whatever you set as maximum throttle? After 8 minutes of flying my new BJ Craft Eternity, I typically consume a little over 4000 ma which seems a bit high and I never approach full throttle during any maneuver.

Mike
Hey Mike,

I use two linear curves connected together. The first linear curve has a slope that is about twice the slope of the second curve, and it only goes up to about 15% of the full throttle curve. The second curve goes from there to 100% throttle.

The purpose of the first curve is to make sure that my motor starts when I advance the throttle by one click. I hate it when I move my throttle to the first click and nothing happens.

4000 mah for 8 minutes of flying sounds reasonable. Keep in mind that 8 minutes is the maximum allowed for an f3a flight. The judges stop judging after that. My flights last no more than 7 minutes.

Using this as a guide, you should be drawing about 7/8*4000 = 3500 mah for an f3a flight.

Also, it's probably not appropriate to compare different setups for mah draw from the packs, because minimum energy consumption is not our real objective. Our real objective is improved flight performance and that can only happen when we make good use of the energy that is available, and some systems might leave energy in the pack instead of using it in the air to give you better performance.

Brenner ...
Old 06-20-2019, 08:01 PM
  #1910  
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Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
Hey Mike,

I use two linear curves connected together. The first linear curve has a slope that is about twice the slope of the second curve, and it only goes up to about 15% of the full throttle curve. The second curve goes from there to 100% throttle.

The purpose of the first curve is to make sure that my motor starts when I advance the throttle by one click. I hate it when I move my throttle to the first click and nothing happens.

4000 mah for 8 minutes of flying sounds reasonable. Keep in mind that 8 minutes is the maximum allowed for an f3a flight. The judges stop judging after that. My flights last no more than 7 minutes.

Using this as a guide, you should be drawing about 7/8*4000 = 3500 mah for an f3a flight.

Also, it's probably not appropriate to compare different setups for mah draw from the packs, because minimum energy consumption is not our real objective. Our real objective is improved flight performance and that can only happen when we make good use of the energy that is available, and some systems might leave energy in the pack instead of using it in the air to give you better performance.

Brenner ...
Thanks Brenner. I've been using a straight line curve from zero to 100%. I use the lever on the left side of my Jeti DS16 for throttle trim. I just push it up and the V4 drive starts without having to move the throttle stick.

Mike
Old 07-25-2019, 07:02 PM
  #1911  
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Default qustion

i have a qustion

i fly most time windy condition 3/4 bauford

whats the effect off the contra prop setup ???
or can you fly better single blade prop

thanks
Old 07-26-2019, 05:58 AM
  #1912  
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Originally Posted by marco.m View Post
i have a qustion

i fly most time windy condition 3/4 bauford

whats the effect off the contra prop setup ???
or can you fly better single blade prop

thanks
A Contra Drive can handle wind as well as a single prop. I don’t think there is any advantage or disadvantage for either.

Brenner...
Old 08-26-2019, 05:32 PM
  #1913  
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Default Mezon 130 and throttle curves

other than setting the pole to 10 and the pulse frequency to 8, what other settings are folks using? Curious about brake settings, acceleration, etc. this is for a biplane if that makes any difference.

if someone could take a snapshot of their throttle curves that would be kool. I want to confirm folks flatten them out a little above and below center and I'm curious what most folks do from idle up to midway. Is it normal to use a throttle up switch once you are on the runway so the props never stop turning?
Old 08-26-2019, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by luckymacy View Post
other than setting the pole to 10 and the pulse frequency to 8, what other settings are folks using? Curious about brake settings, acceleration, etc. this is for a biplane if that makes any difference.

if someone could take a snapshot of their throttle curves that would be kool. I want to confirm folks flatten them out a little above and below center and I'm curious what most folks do from idle up to midway. Is it normal to use a throttle up switch once you are on the runway so the props never stop turning?
Assuming that you are talking about a V4 Contra, I would recommend that you set your PWM frequency to 16 khz, or the highest possible. The commutation rate for a 10 pole motor spinning at 30,000 rpm is very high. This means there is very little time for the ESC to chop up the waveform when it wants to lower the rms voltage, so it needs the fastest PWM frequency that the ESC can deliver.

I also recommend that you use about 1 second for acceleration. This will avoid having the motor input high shock loads into the gearbox; the same for braking.

You should probably start out with a low percentage for braking, something like 20%. The Contra delivers huge braking by itself, so it really doesn't need much help from the ESC.

Also, the timing should be at 24 degrees.

Brenner ...
Old 08-27-2019, 08:48 AM
  #1915  
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Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
... The commutation rate for a 10 pole motor spinning at 30,000 rpm is very high. ...
The motor, and controller, are running at (10/2) × 30.000 = 150,000 e-rpm (2-pole rpm).

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Old 08-27-2019, 08:51 AM
  #1916  
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Originally Posted by ron_van_sommeren View Post
The motor, and controller, are running at (10/2) × 30.000 = 150,000 e-rpm (2-pole rpm).

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Old 11-23-2019, 01:58 AM
  #1917  
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Hi,

Anyone tried the D3 ESC from Adam Dębowski with the V4-Pyro 600?


Br
Henning
Old 11-23-2019, 04:44 AM
  #1918  
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You might consider contacting Adam directly. He is very knowledgeable and dialed my D3 ESC in exactly for my particular application. Great guy to work with.
Old 11-23-2019, 06:48 AM
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Hi Ted,

I have already bought one from him but due to lack of time I have not mounted it in my plane yet. I was just queries if someone had tested it with the V4. I have seen several D3s used with other motor setups but never with a V4. I have been using Jeti Mezon to now with the V4. Several years back I used Schulze 32.80KA ESCs with a proportional break with Pletty motors. I could then have different break settings for straight down line and 45 degree down lines. I have been missing that option and hope the D3 will give me the same break option.


Br
Henning
Old 11-26-2019, 02:34 PM
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Hello Henning,

I am using one at the moment with the V4 (14 pole - 600) I like it! it has taken some time to arrive at a setup I like but I am comfortable with it in flight and some of the benefits it brings. Spent a bit of time setting up flight conditions and tweaking throttle curves as the braking is very aggressive compared to using an ESC when the brake only works at a certain stick position.

Cheers Peter
Old 11-27-2019, 09:40 AM
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So far I’ve been running the 650-83 with 23x20/22 props and it’s been working well. Looking forward to trying the 600 motor sometime over the winter.

Last edited by JAS; 11-27-2019 at 11:42 AM.
Old 11-27-2019, 10:28 AM
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Hi Peter

Are you using a Futaba Tx with the D3? If yes what ATVs are you using? What do you use at landing? Idle-up switch or a different throttle curve? It would be great if you could please share a picture of your throttle curve.


Thanks
Henning
Old 12-02-2019, 05:09 AM
  #1923  
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Hi There Henning,

Sorry for taking a while to get back to you. I have been away for the past week so no access to my transmitter.

I will take some pictures for you tomorrow and post.

Regards,

Peter
Old 12-02-2019, 05:15 AM
  #1924  
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I forgot to mention that I am using a Futaba 18MZ transmitter.

I am using the following conditions so no idle up switch.

1) Disable Motor - Used for ground handling
2) Take-off Landing
3) Normal Flight
4) Snap - Stick switching
5) Spin and Stall
5) Integrated

I will get photos tomorrow.
Old 12-08-2019, 03:16 AM
  #1925  
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Thanks Peter,

Hopefully over x-mas it will be up and running.


Br

Henning

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