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E-Pattern Observations
If you're truly interested in flying electric pattern, the first thing to do is search on "electrified partner" in RC Universe. It's a thread started a couple years ago by Tony Frackowiak on how he constructed an electric PL Products Partner. Read the whole thread because it's loaded with info that's as good today as when it was written. The only real thing that's changed since then is that the lipos have gotten lighter and more powerful.
I spent the last month flying with Andrew Jesky and Peter Collinson in preparation for the Nats. After the second day, I knew my next pattern plane would be electric. Since then, I've been gathering as much data about it as possible. The majority of what I've learned comes directly from watching and occasionally helping Andrew and Peter. In no particular order, here's a list of observations I've made: 1. For power, a Hacker C50-14XL, Hacker Acro 90 speed controller, APC 22-12 electric prop, and Thunderpower 5S-4P 5300 batteries will give you more power than anything out there, glow or electric. There's one maneuver in the FAI schedule that convinces me this is true and my judging assignment for FAI at the Nats convinced me even more. 2. To be able to realistically practice pattern with electric, you need a minimum of 4 batteries and 6 would be better ( it takes two batteries per flight). 3. Field charging batteries is a primary consideration. If you don't have the ability to charge 4 packs at a time, you'll end up waiting a long time between flights. This means you either need 4 chargers or 2 chargers capable of charging 10S packs (2 5S packs in series). All the chargers I've seen run off of 12 to 13.5 volts DC. That means your car battery but only if there's always someone at your site that can give you a jump start when it's time to go home. Other options include a deep-cycle marine battery that you bring along (heavy and awkward plus it's something else to charge each night) or a generator. The Honda EU1000i is a lightweight (26 pounds) generator that only puts out 56 db at 900 watts continuous/1000 watt surge. The street price on that is $750.00 but a little shopping on EBAY will get you one for about $500.00 or so used or $629.00 new from an EBAY vendor. 4. If you go the Honda route, you'll need two power supplies capable of running two chargers each. That equates to an 18 amp power supply. Forget the Diamond power supplies. They overheat and shut down. There's a guy on EBAY that sells a 20 Amp (18 Amp continuous) power supply for $59.00 and he'll reduce the shipping charge if you buy two of them (you need two). Look for him in the Hobby R/C section on EBAY. However, these power supplies may not be adequate depending on which chargers you select. If you use Astro 109 chargers, the Honda and the above power supplies will work just fine. According to the specs I've read on some of the other chargers, the power supply probably won't cut it. 5. Andrew already discussed the cell balancers and that just makes sense to me given the cost of a battery pack. In fact, the cost of a pack has me thinking a seperate charger for each pack makes a lot of sense. If something goes wrong with a charger, you only lose one pack instead of two! 6. The weak link in the whole setup is the gearbox on the Hacker. I witnessed Andrew's implode and the aftermatch was pretty ugly. These things need regular, documented, maintenance. Every 50 flights or sooner if necessary. I tracked down Tony F at the Nats and he showed me what to watch for. Tony rotates the prop each way by hand to "feel" the gears. If it doesn't feel the same, he pulls it out for service, regardless of the number of flights and opts to let Hacker clean and grease the gearbox for him. Hopefully, he'll see this and respond in case I got anything wrong or left something out. 7. From what I've read and seen, Plettenberg and AXI outrunners are starting to appear as viable alternatives, but cooling seems to be an issue since they sit so close to the nose of our planes. In addition, there's still a lot of experimenting on props going on with those two motors. In case you haven't figured it out by now, I'm planning on going electric next season. My shopping list has already started and I actually have the power supplies, speed controller and the Honda. Yet to purchase are: 1 - C50-14XL w/ 6.7:1 gearbox 4 - AstroFlight 109 chargers 4 - Thunderpower cell balancers 1 - Raytek MT-4 Tempgun 1 - AstroFlight Wattmeter 1 - APC 22-12 Electric prop 6 - Thunderpower 5S4P 5300 battery packs (I'm making this my last purchase late in the winter in case something better comes out) Anybody want to buy a 2003 Harley Dyna WideGlide in great shape....... ;>) Verne Koester |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Eletrified Partner post Verne refers to.
[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1425422/anchors_1425422/mpage_1/key_electrified%252Cpartner/anchor/tm.htm#1425422[/link] |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Other links and watch dates of post as some will be outdated.
Composite ARF Revolution Pro Electric conversion [link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1590356/anchors_1603146/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#1603146[/link] Hacker C50 mounting [link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2239137/anchors_2239153/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#2239153[/link] Raised voltage [link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2501172/anchors_2501830/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#2501830[/link] CPLR goes electric [link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2411533/anchors_2427490/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#2427490[/link] |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
ORIGINAL: VinnieK If you're truly interested in flying electric pattern, the first thing to do is search on "electrified partner" in RC Universe. It's a thread started a couple years ago by Tony Frackowiak on how he constructed an electric PL Products Partner. Read the whole thread because it's loaded with info that's as good today as when it was written. The only real thing that's changed since then is that the lipos have gotten lighter and more powerful. I spent the last month flying with Andrew Jesky and Peter Collinson in preparation for the Nats. After the second day, I knew my next pattern plane would be electric. Since then, I've been gathering as much data about it as possible. The majority of what I've learned comes directly from watching and occasionally helping Andrew and Peter. In no particular order, here's a list of observations I've made: 1. For power, a Hacker C50-14XL, Hacker Acro 90 speed controller, APC 22-12 electric prop, and Thunderpower 5S-4P 5300 batteries will give you more power than anything out there, glow or electric. There's one maneuver in the FAI schedule that convinces me this is true and my judging assignment for FAI at the Nats convinced me even more. 2. To be able to realistically practice pattern with electric, you need a minimum of 4 batteries and 6 would be better ( it takes two batteries per flight). 3. Field charging batteries is a primary consideration. If you don't have the ability to charge 4 packs at a time, you'll end up waiting a long time between flights. This means you either need 4 chargers or 2 chargers capable of charging 10S packs (2 5S packs in series). All the chargers I've seen run off of 12 to 13.5 volts DC. That means your car battery but only if there's always someone at your site that can give you a jump start when it's time to go home. Other options include a deep-cycle marine battery that you bring along (heavy and awkward plus it's something else to charge each night) or a generator. The Honda EU1000i is a lightweight (26 pounds) generator that only puts out 56 db at 900 watts continuous/1000 watt surge. The street price on that is $750.00 but a little shopping on EBAY will get you one for about $500.00 or so used or $629.00 new from an EBAY vendor. 4. If you go the Honda route, you'll need two power supplies capable of running two chargers each. That equates to an 18 amp power supply. Forget the Diamond power supplies. They overheat and shut down. There's a guy on EBAY that sells a 20 Amp (18 Amp continuous) power supply for $59.00 and he'll reduce the shipping charge if you buy two of them (you need two). Look for him in the Hobby R/C section on EBAY. However, these power supplies may not be adequate depending on which chargers you select. If you use Astro 109 chargers, the Honda and the above power supplies will work just fine. According to the specs I've read on some of the other chargers, the power supply probably won't cut it. 5. Andrew already discussed the cell balancers and that just makes sense to me given the cost of a battery pack. In fact, the cost of a pack has me thinking a seperate charger for each pack makes a lot of sense. If something goes wrong with a charger, you only lose one pack instead of two! 6. The weak link in the whole setup is the gearbox on the Hacker. I witnessed Andrew's implode and the aftermatch was pretty ugly. These things need regular, documented, maintenance. Every 50 flights or sooner if necessary. I tracked down Tony F at the Nats and he showed me what to watch for. Tony rotates the prop each way by hand to "feel" the gears. If it doesn't feel the same, he pulls it out for service, regardless of the number of flights and opts to let Hacker clean and grease the gearbox for him. Hopefully, he'll see this and respond in case I got anything wrong or left something out. 7. From what I've read and seen, Plettenberg and AXI outrunners are starting to appear as viable alternatives, but cooling seems to be an issue since they sit so close to the nose of our planes. In addition, there's still a lot of experimenting on props going on with those two motors. In case you haven't figured it out by now, I'm planning on going electric next season. My shopping list has already started and I actually have the power supplies, speed controller and the Honda. Yet to purchase are: 1 - C50-14XL w/ 6.7:1 gearbox 4 - AstroFlight 109 chargers 4 - Thunderpower cell balancers 1 - Raytek MT-4 Tempgun 1 - AstroFlight Wattmeter 1 - APC 22-12 Electric prop 6 - Thunderpower 5S4P 5300 battery packs (I'm making this my last purchase late in the winter in case something better comes out) Anybody want to buy a 2003 Harley Dyna WideGlide in great shape....... ;>) Verne Koester Couple of things :-) If you are truly serious about going "green" for next season I think you will find that it will be best to wait until the last possible minute to purchase. Hacker already has a new motor, as well as a controller with an "F3A Brake" (I have no other details) that the Matt's will be using in France (probably others as well). Next spring I would imagine everything ran at this years Nats will be obsolete :) I know that the new TP charger is due out shortly which is probably the best bang for the buck ($180 for a 220W charger, the equivelent Schulze will run you around $400). 2 of the TP chargers will charge as fast as 4 109's and will be cheaper, plus they are smaller. The other beauty of the TP chargers is it hooks to their balancers to shut down the charge if ANY cell exceeds 4.24V.....IMO this is a MUST have safety feature. Unfortunately this will only work with the TP charger. On to the balancers, within a week or so the 10 cell balancers will be out allowing safe series charging on every charge without voltage checking (and taking your balancer numbers from 4 down to 2). The other issue with the Astro's is they wont charge 10s, only 9s.....so if you ever want to charge a 10s pack you will be out of luck. Power supplies, 18A is not sufficient for 10s charging (we have tried, 4A charge rate is the max)....you need around 25A to make a go of it for 1 10s pack, 45A if you want to run 2 chargers with 10s packs (this is assuming you are charging at 1C...or 5A for the 5300's). Its all in the watts,....at best the Astro is a 140W charger, while the TP is 220W, so whatever you use the best bet is to have a power supply that can deliver 10-15% more watts than your charger can consume (to account for losses). So to run 2 TP chargers a true 500W ([email protected]) supply would be the minimum I would use. I would probably go for 600 or 700 just to reduce the load on the supply. 7. From what I've read and seen, Plettenberg and AXI outrunners are starting to appear as viable alternatives, but cooling seems to be an issue since they sit so close to the nose of our planes. In addition, there's still a lot of experimenting on props going on with those two motors. |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Hi Chad,
Thanks for the tips. I enjoyed watching the finals and chatting with yourself and Adam. Best of luck in France. Jim W. Team Futaba |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
I have a Duratrax Flashpoint Infrared Temperature Gauge it seems to work very well, any thoughts?
[link]http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEMG5&P=ML[/link] Also I have a Radio Shack power supply thats 10 amps, that they don't seem to carry anymore this is the closest I can find on there website and it's 15 amps, the 10 amp I have should be enough for one charger? http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...ct%5Fid=22-508 |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
ORIGINAL: patternrules I have a Duratrax Flashpoint Infrared Temperature Gauge it seems to work very well, any thoughts? [link]http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEMG5&P=ML[/link] Also I have a Radio Shack power supply thats 10 amps, that they don't seem to carry anymore this is the closest I can find on there website and it's 15 amps, the 10 amp I have should be enough for one charger? http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...ct%5Fid=22-508 Again its all in the watts, 13.8V (typical of commericial supplies, PC supplies are 12-12.5V) @ 10A is 138W output.....10s (42V peak) charging away at 5A is 210W consumption....so you would need 2 supplies to charge a complete pack. 18A supplies will deal with 5s packs at upwards of 6A without problems. If you want a serious supply check out these.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...PcY_BIN_Stores $122 but capable of charging x2 10s packs @ 5A. They also sell a 55A model which will allow me to do x2 10s packs @ 5A and a single 10s pack @ 3A. |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Chad,
Unfortunately, I already have the generator and power supplies which is why I'm steering away from the other chargers. No doubt they're good, but the 59.00 each I paid for my two power supplies is part of the over-strapped budget already spent. Even if I didn't have them, I suspect the price of two good 45 amp power supplies might well be the proverbial straw. The controller was too good a deal to pass up. A friend had two brand new Acro 90's that he got via miscommunication with a vendor and only needed one. I bought the un-needed one at a very good price. I didn't have a chance to see or judge you, but both judged Adam and talked to him at length later about his setup. I was very impressed on both accounts. Nice guy and one of the best pilots I judged on !QUOT!howling Monday!QUOT!. I'm aware of the new F3a Hacker coming out and will wait and see how the price and motor looks when released. I'm not ignoring the other motors out there either, but I'll have to decide on something this fall when I start building. The whole purpose of me writing what I did was to give other guys considering electric an idea of what to expect and what I've witnessed so far. This stuff is still a bit of black magic for many of us and I'd still be totally in the dark if it weren't for my practice time with Andrew and Peter. I think we'd all agree is that for the short term, these things are gonna be like computers. Anything you buy now will likely be obsolete 6 months from now. In the interim, I'm gathering up things that will work within my budget and holding out as long as I can on the motor and batteries. My shopping list already has lots of changes in it. Verne Koester |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Hi Steve,
I use that Duratrax temp gage on my R/C cars and frankly when I make the move to electric pattern I will get a better one. It just doesn't repeat that accurately. Sometimes the old saying has truth to it.....'you get what you pay for' |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Chad,
What rpm are you turning the 19 x 12 at on 10s? I am running a Neumotor 1515/2Y with 5.2 gearbox, unfortunately the gearbox has shelled itself for the second time in 20 flights. I am with you now about the geared motors reliability. It produces great power, but limited reliability so far. Jeff |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
ORIGINAL: nxtdoor Chad, What rpm are you turning the 19 x 12 at on 10s? I am running a Neumotor 1515/2Y with 5.2 gearbox, unfortunately the gearbox has shelled itself for the second time in 20 flights. I am with you now about the geared motors reliability. It produces great power, but limited reliability so far. Jeff I dont know the 19x12 standard and I cannot use it, the Schulze 32.55K ESC current limits to 72A max and the 19x12 draws more than that (its really obvious when the ESC limits the motor!) Depending on how well your packs hold voltage will dictate the current draw and rpm, so you may be lower or greater by a bit with those numbers. |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Sam, the Duratrax is good enough for my use. I don't think we have any reason to desire more than ±2degC repeatability on measurements, which the Duratrax seems to offer. If my motor comes down at 58 one flight and 56 the next, I don't think "I wonder what changed?" If it comes down 56 one flight and 76 the next, I need to do some tests before I fly again. If my battery is 43 when I land, then next flight is 50, I know instantly that I have pushed the discharge depth on that second pack.
|
RE: E-Pattern Observations
When Andrew first got started with his electric Brio, he had a laser temp gun that worked just fine (don't remember the brand). However, the temps he was getting indicated the need for some ductwork which he added. That caused a secondary problem in that it was darned near impossible to get a good reading off the motor because the duct was always in the way of the laser sight. He showed up the next day with a Raytek MT-4. I suspect the one he started with was just as accurate, but the MT-4 had the laser closer to the gizmo on the gun that actually takes the reading. Worth considering if your plane of choice is going to need some ducting to keep the motor, controller, and batteries happy.
Verne Koester |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Ok lets say some was on a real tight budget, and charge off of running car so not to run battery down and add as funds free up, to start 10 minute flight every hour.
1- 10s charger $180 1- 10s balancer $100 2- 5s4p packs $650 Hacker C5014xl $440 Hacker 90arco $420 22x12e prop $ 18 Total $1646 |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
I don't think any pattern pilot will be happy with only one set of batteries. IMO, two is the minimum, three is nice, and four is sweet. Also, you definitely don't need the Hacker 90. It is expensive, heavy, and overkill. Consider that we are successfully running the Schulze 55A controller.
|
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Thanks Adam I'm in a unique situation as I'm retired and spend many hours at the field with friends everyday, I hardly ever fly more that once an hour but I may spend 6 to 8 hours at the field so I can get 8 flights in a day without being rushed, the only problem I see is contest, in this district they do fly one line then the next line sometimes making back to back flights, and as I said this, I'm sure, would a temporary thing build batteries and chargers as time goes on, and could actually do another thing I wouldn't have as much invested in old technology, so I could be in a situation of getting newer batteries and chargers as they come out, $600 can buy a lot of gas for a vehicle running at idle.
Thank you very much for your input to the forum and this thread, lots to think about for next year. |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Steve,
It takes an hour to charge the batteries after a flight, IF you don't go over 9 minutes on the flight. All this assumes reasonable throttle management, of course. However, the batteries have to cool down after the flight before they go on the charger which usually takes 15 minutes or so. One item you left off your list is a tempgun which is vital. There are other niceties like a wattmeter, but it's really critical to keep track of your temperatures. Verne |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Yes, good points, for me 4 flights a day would be fine and maybe by spring could even do it all, I was planning on using the Trax unless I get the Raytek you mentioned, and it's not a bad price at $72, I'm sure another set of batteries would be next then another charger as money come available or get a part time job LOL I'll probably do a hack job on one of my current models for testing the Panacea fuse may get a makeover.
Thanks |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
A consideration when choosing a temp gun is the distance / spot ratio. Many of the low cost guns have ratios of 4:1 or so. That means that a one foot distance the spot is 3 inches in diameter, not very selective. The better guns are generally 8:1 ($60-70) and there are 12:1 models (in the $125 range).
Earl |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Steve, It takes an hour to charge the batteries after a flight, IF you don't go over 9 minutes on the flight. All this assumes reasonable throttle management, of course. However, the batteries have to cool down after the flight before they go on the charger which usually takes 15 minutes or so. One item you left off your list is a tempgun which is vital. There are other niceties like a wattmeter, but it's really critical to keep track of your temperatures. Verne I've never had to wait for the batteries to cool down, even when I flew Frack's ePartner last year and the battery temps were around 120-130 deg F after a flight. This year with the new 5300's in the Abbra I was only getting battery temps in the 110s to low 120's (partly due to the much lower impedence of the 5300's and the better cooling in the Abbra). That's not to say that if you're getting battery temps in the 140's or higher you shouldn't consider waiting a bit, but at that point you should really be taking a hard look at what's going on before doing anything else, let alone charging. Also, 3 battery packs is all you need to fly a flight every hour, and that's only after you fly the first 3 flights of the day. If you start charging the first pack immediately after the first flight you can be flying your 4th flight about 90 minutes after you fly your first flight. From then on it's about once an hour. If you want to fly more often that, buy extra charges, not battery packs. FWIW, last year at the Nats I flew the entire prelims and the first 2 rounds of the finals on the same battery pack. It was only for the 3rd round of the finals that I had to go to pack #2 because I had about a 40 minute turn time from round 2 to round 3 (and even then I probably could have flown the same pack again, but why push it?). I've found the limiting factor preventing a rapid turn between flight is the cool down time of the motor, but that's only about 10-15 minutes duration, so it's not much of a problem. Thx, Jerry |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
A consideration when choosing a temp gun is the distance / spot ratio. Many of the low cost guns have ratios of 4:1 or so. That means that a one foot distance the spot is 3 inches in diameter, not very selective. The better guns are generally 8:1 ($60-70) and there are 12:1 models (in the $125 range). Earl I'm using the $39 Radio Shack temp gun, don't know what the dist/spot ratio is but since I shoot the temps from ~ 1" to 4" I'm guessing it doesn't much matter. Besides, it's nice and small and it can fit in your pocket (it's also occasionally on sale for $29!). Thx, Jerry |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Also I have a Radio Shack power supply thats 10 amps, that they don't seem to carry anymore this is the closest I can find on there website and it's 15 amps, the 10 amp I have should be enough for one charger? http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...ct%5Fid=22-508 _____________________________ Steve Maxwell When at fields with 110V power I use a Radio Shack 25A switching power supply that cost me $99 (walk in store price, not on sale). I power two Orbit chargers simultaneously, with no problems. Even when it's in the sun (which I try to avoid) it's never gotten hot, or even warm (it has an internal cooling fan). The other nice thing about it is that it's not very big, maybe 8" x 8" x 2". Here's the URL to it: http://tinyurl.com/8tzgr Thx, Jerry (who's not sponsored by Radio Shack but seems to [surprisingly] find things there that actually work as advertised!) |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Ok Jerry so your saying that what I'm talking about is doable with adding the power supply( I have power at my field) you suggested so add $100 so a total of about $1750 would get a guy started and flying about every hour, then another battery 10s 4p pack and the another charger, balancer, and power supply with the final setup you could fly every 1/2 hour and that includes the time it takes to fly 9 minutes so basically every 20 minutes your flying with 2 full setups. Hope I got this right so a total of about $2800.
And thanks for your comments. Steve ORIGINAL: patternrules Ok lets say some was on a real tight budget, and charge off of running car so not to run battery down and add as funds free up, to start 10 minute flight every hour. 1- 10s charger $180 1- 10s balancer $100 2- 5s4p packs $650 Hacker C5014xl $440 Hacker 90arco $420 22x12e prop $ 18 Total $1646 |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
Something like that.
If you have power at your field, and you want to be able to fly every 20-30 minutes or so (I wish I could do that at my field!), I'd error on the side of getting a big enough power supply to run two SETS of chargers to simultaneously charge two SETS of batteries. I don't know for sure but I suspect that the Radio Shack power supply I'm using wouldn't be able to support that. I haven't a chance to do the math - but it sounds like Chad has, you might consider getting one of the 45-50 Amp power supplies he's posted URL's for (it's cheaper to buy a slightly bigger power supply than to buy two of the next size down). What I'm wondering is if the 1000w Honda generator that Andrew had at the Nats could power two sets of chargers as described above? I don't have power at my field and that generator was WAY quiet! I guess I'll have to break out the calculator and run the numbers (an Aero E pretending to be a EE, now that's dangerous!). |
RE: E-Pattern Observations
I'm using the Jeti 90 amp controller with my Plettenberg and it works great. A bit on the heavy side at 4 oz, but I don't have to worry about pulling too much current. Hobby Lobby has them for about $250, much cheaper than the Hacker (which is also made by Jeti) though it's minus a few features that I don't miss.
I wouldn't consider a Wattmeter (or equivalent) an option, it's a must have. I was having temp problems with my motor and used to wattmeter in part to figure it out. Knowing just how much current a given prop is drawing was invaluable. Also keep in mind that it can help identify problems with your motor, pulling more than normal current, before it destroys your ESC. Refer to TonyF's thread on his Partner experiences for that. As far as power supplies. I may get one in the future, but for right now I have a deep cycle marine battery that works just fine. I charge up my two sets of batteries the night before, top off the deep cycle, and I'm good for a full day of flying. Last Friday I got to the field at 8:30 am, left at noon, and had made six flights with four re-charges. That's using two Astro Flight 109s with TP 10s3p 6000s. I have two sets of packs, and three would be nice, but not needed IMHO. The deep cycle is heavy, but so is a generator. |
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