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EP LR1A Pogo

Old 07-18-2009, 01:11 PM
  #1  
Iceman67
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Default EP LR1A Pogo

Here are some more pictures of Jery Small's EP LR1-A Pogo. Specs are:

50" span
375 sq in
4-Channel
3lbs RTF weight

Power:
Turnigy SK 35-42-1250 Kv
4S 20C 2350 Rhino Li-Poly
Castle Pheonix 60 ESC
APC 8 x 8 APC "E" @ 14,000 RPM

We flew these @ the AMA NATS this year during luch breaks. We set up a 375' (3) pylon sourse and raced (3) at a time. They are just over 100 mph and very easy to fly. The goal of this project is to promote a new sport EP racing class that would interest both the sport flier and racer alike. Course would be either the 375' (3) pylon or 400' (2) pylon course.

The fuse is all lasercut light ply box type construction with balsa and spruce stringers. The tail feathers are 3/16" sheet. Wing is foam core with 1/16" balsa sheeting.

Jerry sent me one and it took me 4 days to build. First flight was only a couple clicks of trim away from race trim. My first race with it was my 3rd flight on the airplane. I have since flown it with some local sport fliers and done some exciting aerobatics with it. It is just a great airplane and would make a great sport racer.

I will get a video of it in action and post it to youtube.
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:28 AM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Went out yesterday and got (6) more flights on the Pogo. I played with diferent props and found the 9 x 6 APC "E" to be the best all around performer. I have in-flight data to confirm this. Motor was turning 13,700 rpm in-flight with the 9 x 6 using the Turnugy 35-42-1000. I have the motor of choice 35-42-1250 on order. Jerry was flying his this weekend at the Austin race and found that the 8 x 6 APC "E" seemed a happy match with that motor. With the higher Kv, the power is up a bit from the 1000Kv motor I have. I look forward to getting some in-flight data to compare the 8 x 6 & 8 x 8 APC "E" props.

I also got video from last nights flying session I will get posted to youtube tonight. It didn't turn out very good, but it will get the point acrossed. I flew it for the first time out of grass yesterday and had no issues with takeoff, landing, or taxiing. It was kind of a cramped field, so the superb low speed characteristics of this airplane really helped. Yesterday I did more of an aerobatic routine than a pylon practice. I did loops, rolls, Cubans, stall turns, inverted flight, 4 point rolls, knife edge passes, and spins in both directions. I was getting around 4 1/2 minutes of this type of flying before I noticed any substantial voltage fall off.

Take Care,

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Old 07-20-2009, 11:27 PM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Here is the youtube link for yesterdays flight session. It is rough, but you can see the speed and a pretty nice landing if I say so myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZFGE_tEzb4

Take care,

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Old 07-26-2009, 09:12 PM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

George Parks is in town for the E-Nats and I will be meeting him out there in the afternoon to do some demo racing with the Pogos. Come on out if anyone is in town!!!
Old 07-27-2009, 11:33 AM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Got some news this morning from Jerry. He set-up a radar gun on course and has some speeds. He set-up the radar gun 100' in front of pylon #2 pointed @ pylon#1. Speeds redorded are on the course speeds coming downwind into #2. All tests used the Turnigy SK 35-42-1250 motor.

APC "E" 8 x 6 on 4S Rhino 2350's
112-116 mph reported

APC "E" 8 x8 on Rhino 4s 2350's
119-122 mph reported

APC "E" 8 x 6 clipped to 7" dia on 5S TP 2650's
120-128 mph reported

This puts this set-up right on track with current speeds seen by AMA 424 quickie models. The 8 x 8 on 4S is really pushing the systems capability, but the 8 x 6 seems to run well within the 4S limits.

I am flying mine with a 35-42-1000kv with a 9 x 6 and 9 x 7.5 like I flew on my Predator. Speed is just over 100 mph with this, but not as fast as the 1250 Kv motor. I flew this power-system for 8 minutes of sport type flying using good throttle management and the 4S 2350's.

I have 35-42-1250's on order and will get data loggr info on those to establish in air current. Once we have this info, we can get an idea of the perfect prop for this and have it made. Fred from APC has already offered to do this for us.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Old 08-24-2009, 03:22 PM
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Kevin Matney
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Keep the good work comeing. I like what you are doing!
Old 10-04-2009, 05:20 PM
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Anyone interested in this event, please check the AMA site for the new rules proposal for AMA 427 Electric Formula One. This would really be a great event for getting started into racing cheap and fun. The airfames fly good and are very user freindly. They also look like real racers which should really attract quite a few different designs.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Old 10-05-2009, 09:47 AM
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daven
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

I agree, like the planes, like the power. Currently, unless something comes that changes my mind, I will be voting yes for this.

Dave

Old 10-05-2009, 11:40 AM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

The next question is who is signing up to host some EF-1 races next year? Either short course or (2) pole.

I would like to make a big push to make them a spec class with all required to use the same power systems (motor & battery) and hand out props so that the racing will be as equal as it can be. The Turnigy 35-42-1250 motors and 4S 2350 batteries we have been using have tested well and so far I haven't had any issues.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Old 10-08-2009, 09:10 PM
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P. Johnson
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

I want one ...NO..I want 2 of em...
Old 10-12-2009, 09:19 AM
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DMyer
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

When are the kits going to be available, from where and how much? I would like to build one so I can take it to our local club meetings and local racing events. If I can get enough people interested, with a plane, within driving distance - I will CD a contest at PGRC in Bowie MD next season.

I assume two batteries would be needed at a minimum to allow charging to occcur between heats without pushing them too much.... I assume, I could be wrong, that running flat out everything will get a bit warm.


Dan Myer
Old 10-12-2009, 07:53 PM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Pete/Dan,

Thanks for the interest. Horizon Hobby has the Pogo and is supposed to be releasing an ARF version of it later next year. TBD

We need to get the rules settled on so we can also get other kit makers interested in making some airframes as well. I have (3) in the works right now and will post some pictures as soon as I have something tangible.

Heard through the grape vine that there was an EF-1 Toni @ the F5D team trials this past weekend in San Diego and made quite a hit there. Hopefully we could get a national event stirring up here in the next year.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Old 10-13-2009, 08:29 AM
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DMyer
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Is the pogo actually available from horizon yet, or do they just have a prototype to copy? I don't see it on their web page.


dan
Old 10-15-2009, 11:20 AM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Dan,

I have heard that the Pogo will be available next year in the spring. I am trying to get my Swee Pea and Kelly EF-1's ready get laser cut and also get the plastic and glass part molds made. I want to have short kits ready ASAP. THese would include molded fiberglass front cowl, plastic canopy/hatch, laser cut light ply fuse sides and formers, LG, and foam cores. I will post pictures as I get more done on these. All laser cut parts will be tab and slot for ease of building.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie Indiana
Old 10-15-2009, 01:32 PM
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DMyer
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Thanks.... we will eagerly await availability. I know of several already from my Bowie Md area that would give this a try.

Old 10-15-2009, 03:06 PM
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HighPlains
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

This concept has lots of merit. Duane Gall has been flying an old QM15 with 3S e-power and reported speeds of about 130mph. However with my older eyes, a larger model sounds good.

A quick review of the rules as submitted show that they are a very rough paste up that need some serious attention.

When you have a fuselage that is half glass, why not go the whole distance? That restriction does not make sense to me, but perhaps someone can explain it to me.

I think that a spec motor makes sense, otherwise people that are serious will end up with lots of different motors and everyone else will stay out of the event.

I expect that battery technology will progress greatly in the next 5 years, so a maximum weight on the battery will not hold water very long.

The original F1 event had a very high level of interest back in the 60's, but when the times got faster than the 1:20 - 1:30 range, the numbers started declining. It was almost killed when the K&B gave out a limited number (102) of engines that flat outran everything else. The 50 or 60 that had them kept racing, everyone else quit. Sound a bit like the current problem with the Nelson LS?

All in all, this looks like it has a lot of potentiental. Availability of ARF's, ARC's and simple kits will decide if it catches on. Maybe a corporate sponser?
Old 10-15-2009, 06:49 PM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Highplains,

Thanks for your input. I too am a fan of glass fuses as it would simplify construction. However the intent of this event is to attract newbies to racing that are not used to the composite type construction. By newbies, I mean everyday park and sport fliers that may even not have any interest in racing, but be attracted to this as it isn't any different than what they were currently flying, just faster. Glass fuses would make the kits more expensive and again intimidate those who haven't worked with them before. The Pogo took me 4 days to build. The laser cut fuses are tab and slot so they build quick and straight. All of the Pogos built weighed right at 3.25 lbs and flew right off the board. Jerry built (3), George Parks built (1), and I built the last one. I am looking forward to building my Swee Pea and Kelly.

These models fly fantastic!! I have taken the Pogo out with a lower pitch prop and flew around like a pattern ship doing rolling circles, hammerheads, point rolls, snap rolls, cubans, spins, and whatever else I could think of.

I think the ultimate control for motors would be to make is spec class with hand out motors like they do it @ R/C car stock class races. Your entry fee would buy your motor and after every race, you turn it in. You would have to have a circuit to make this work, but I think it is viable with using Turnigy SK 35-42-1250 motors as they are $17 a piece. The batteries will be tricky to controll as the better packs will dominate. I use Rhino 4s 20C 2350 packs. The rules would allow up to 2800 packs depending on which manufacturer you buy from. The 2350's will give about 650 watts for 2 minutes. The use of watt limiters has also been considered which would take the batteries out of it too. As battery technology advances, I would expect us to conform and alter rules to follow suit.

Hand out props are also a must to control the use of high Kv motors. I have proposed a minimum prop diameter of 8" and the hand out props would be 8 x 8 APC "E" or 8 x 6 APC "E".

Please keep the idea train flowing!! We are looking for as much input as possible!!

P.S. Sneak peak of the Kelly & Swee Pea!!

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:04 PM
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HighPlains
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Throw in a bellcrank and you are ready to do a cloverleaf.

Ooops, wrong forum.

Since these are half glass (Jerry's at least), I think that you might as well go all the way. Much tougher, easier to repair.
Old 10-15-2009, 08:56 PM
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Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Not sure I get where you're going with the controline deal, but I do fly CL stunt too. 2 time national champion, and 4 time runner up as a matter of fact. But building racers this way in no way indicates that they are low tech. Neither does flying CL. Mearly presents a very easy, affordable, and non intimidating building technique. The idea here is to provide an event that is not as out of control as many of our other events have gotten. This is meant to be a common flier event and also a chance for some of glow racers to get their feet wet in EP racing.

Now, I do completely agree that molding all glass fuses would be better. I prefer that type of construction as the models would build faster as well as be more robust. But again I need to stress that the crowd we are seeking is a group that flies models already constructed this way. For this reason alone, we need to maintain this type of construction for the EF-1 class.

Now if this class seems to be popular, the demand for a pro class will undoubtedly come up where I would be the front runner to allow glass fuses and perhaps allow designer specified tail group sizes and airfoiled tails and..... Let's see how this goes!!

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Old 10-17-2009, 11:51 AM
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HighPlains
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

20 years ago I would say the only two groups that really knew what they were doing were the Formula One pylon racers and Control Line stunt fliers at the national level. Making an high performance model airplane with a superior fit and finish compared to what the average modeler built, while making it very light is demanding in terms of time and effort. After F1 folded it's tent in the 90's, only CL remained standing. When I was going to the nats (BM), the events that really interested me was Pylon, CL Speed, and CL Stunt. Unfortunately with the summer long drawn out local contest that now passes as a Nats (AM), people only see their event and nothing else.[]

I haven't been too excited by very much in pylon since the the demise of F1, since we ended up with two forms of Quickie (428 and 422). The recent Nelson LS saga has not helped either event either. Parity in power is necessary in any racing event. Buying $400 paper weights makes people question why they should bother. $600 molded models also limits the numbers in what is really CL combat without wires.

Pylon racing has a long tradition in the United States since it's development here. Over the past 50+ years it has evolved with the technology available to support it. In the late 50's Superhet radio technology allowed more than one airplane to be flown at a time, and Jerry Nelson developed the original pylon racing event a few years later. Looking to develop a racing event for his local club, Glen Spickler created the Quickie. Looking to make racing more available to the average Joe, Qm15 was created. In every case, technology outran the rule makers. Did you know that when Formula One started at the first NMPRA race, the fastest qualifying time was 2:57 with an speed of almost 80 mph. Towards the end of F1, we were at 175 mph and under 1:10 times. F1 didn't die because of lack of technology, but rather lack of numbers flying it.

While there are some signs of life in slow quickie (424), many people just are not interested in flying something that looks like the box it came in. E-F1 certainly solves that problem.

One of the problems we have had in pylon racing for many years is that most people are just not that good at dead stick landings. E-F1 solves that problem.

The question is, can we use the rearview mirror to prevent problems ahead?
Old 10-19-2009, 12:29 AM
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zedad71
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

I am TOTALLY interested in electric pylon, I have two club members that are intrigued with my efforts in 424 but DO NOT fly glow. An electric class, especially one that has "real" airplanes in it built from wood, will entice them for sure.
My two cents worth, The motor size limits seem to be difficult to find anything suitable ,, is the Turnigy the only motor that works in this situation.

I would rather see a watt limiter and open the motor up some.
say to something like the Hacker A-30 size? Would not the watt limiter control the ability of the bigger motor and batteries to deliver the power? My reasoning is the quality of the components. I would hate to be racing and loose a heat because a 17$ motor failed, it COULD lead to people replacing the motor every other heat or so.
just armchair quarterbacking.
Archie? would you be willing to communicate email with me about your CAD drawings? I have a couple ideas , airframes I am looking at doing plans for.
Old 10-22-2009, 08:09 AM
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DMyer
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Now, I do completely agree that molding all glass fuses would be better. I prefer that type of construction as the models would build faster as well as be more robust. But again I need to stress that the crowd we are seeking is a group that flies models already constructed this way. For this reason alone, we need to maintain this type of construction for the EF-1 class.
Save the glass for after this event catches fire which I think just may happen. The original EP event should all be simple and totally spec including watt limiters IMO. The glass/composite should go to another whole class where power, props and speed is not limited to allow evolution and an outlet for the truly hard core electric speed freaks. You know that will eventually happen.
Old 10-22-2009, 05:02 PM
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LS171Malibu
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

We have a sport .25 series in Fort Worth that has been going strong for three years. Jerry was at our race on sunday to demonstrate the model and pitch the idea. I first noticed the plane when I was about to take a trim flight. It was rolling down the runway on the mains dead stick (so I thought) when power was aplied to taxy. I thought, that is neat. In fact I thought "that plane is bad*****" lol. Anyhow, it was later in the day when I was honored to meet Jerry, and given the oppertunity to fly the plane. All I can say is WOW! It flies far better than a Viper powered by a .25, and looks very good. Before sunday I had no desire for electric powered models, now I would gladly switch from sport 25 to the proposed EP class. I just hope that the arf flies as nicely. I also hope that these kits are available, as I prefer to build my planes.
Old 10-30-2009, 10:19 AM
  #24  
Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Blake,

Great to hear you flew Jerry's Pogo. They really do fly nicely. I got my ICE 50 controllers back from Castle so I look forward to flying mine again. Been busy with kids, school and real life stuff lately. Also trying to get flats for the Swee Pea and Kelly made so I can get some short kits cut. BUSY BUSY BUSY!!!

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Old 11-05-2009, 10:10 AM
  #25  
Iceman67
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Default RE: EP LR1A Pogo

Attention All,

There is a thread on the NMPRA Site right now concerning the EF-1 event. There are several great posts on that thread yet unfortunately I can't post as I am not activated as a member yet. So I will post here and hopefully my message will get out.

The EF-1 event is fully intended to be a grass roots event to attract new fliers to our sport. It is aimed at a variety of fliers as an airframe that is inexpensive, can be flown out of any field, and is easy to fly. I have more than 100 flights on my Pogo. I have flown it at every local field here in the Muncie Area. Initial feedback is really cool and wow that's fast. But the real attractive part is the low cost of the components used in the set-up and wow is it quiet. Plug and play stuff that is not going to break the bank and that works well and lasts when used within it's limits.

There are several out there that really want to take EF-1 to the next level using watt limiters and opening the field for high power motors and high rpm props. This is great!! However, this needs to be set up as a pro class. I would recomend to following:

Stock class be limited to (1) motor/Battery/Prop combo. I would suggest going down to 3S 3000's on the 35-42-1250 motor. Set a break out time.

Pro Class go to the 1000 watt/min limiter. Set a minimum prop diameter and also reduce regulations such as no glass fuses/wings/tails, no nimimum tail size. Even go to the long course for them. Set a cell limit of 5S and allow up to 400 grams as in F5D.

Current testing shows that the Turngy 35-42-1250 on 4S 2350 Li-poly spinning the 8 x 8 APC "E" will do 1:15-1:20 easily on the short course. The Rhino 20C 2350 cells are capable of producing 650 watts for 2 minutes.

Please note that I have also successfully converted a Q-500 that would be great for entry level racing. It was 100mph using a 35-48-1100 on 4S 2350's and a 9 x 7.5 prop. RTF weight was 3.75lbs.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

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