ACES&8s

By the way guys...I'm trying to be good at contributing something positive to this thread, cause I'm an economy flyer, and I believe in research! But I'm just too new, so if I step on toes, know I don't mean to...I'm just kind of inept on forums.

I like the Guy from Extreme RC. First off, he's from Australia. That means he MUST be a cool dude! Australia doesn't make the other kind right? I like Greg's idea. I'm experimenting on 70mm and 90mm myself, on a VERY limited income.

My enthusiasm for this sport is very high. What really, really bothers me is pricing. Modeller's get gouged...from the beginning of modelling history. If we found better ways...the research would flourish, as it does, yet guys on very little income could participate. That's what I find of most merit, to all the modeller's.

I'm certain that anyone who tries a 120 is probably an experienced, old-skool modeller.

I am, but I mentioned balancing a rotor. So here goes. Greg: Can you get the unit together, to run well? And does it require a professional balancing? I'm hoping to eek out from the flock, someone that has the tools to do it. My father was employed by P&W for 39 years. We had shop equipment, and I got used to it. When he passed away, all that is gone. So, here in my little apartment...well the Saab story continues...

Greg Covey

ACES,

You asked enough questions to fill several magazines even from a single person's perspective. Add several perspectives and you'll get many different answers. I feel that you should probably start a new thread on these questions because the answer to them is different for everyone. You will likely find that you need to develop your own answers, and then make your own compromises.

If we look at Mark's experience, he is a professional and probably a machinist. He has created certain standards over the years and tends not to compromise, likely due to experience. He makes some very nice stuff and expects a certain level of performance. He doesn't want to sell products that don't meet expectation and I don't blame him.

The good stuff, especially well machined parts, take time and cost more money. In my 18 year old Byron A-4 Skyhawk [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=1153]conversion[/link] to EDF, I would not have considered anything less than an E-Turbax DF, Neu motor, and Castle ESC. The model and its local history (build by Major Woody) meant too much to me. I did, however, research many 120mm power systems and decided that the E-Turbax was the best value at the time. The BVM Viofan, Dynamax, and Tamjet carbon solutions, while all excellent products, cost more money. The Trimair Ramtec was not being sold in the US at the time.

Even higher levels of performance and efficiency can be seen on a BVM Electra with a Viofan, but this solution is not viable for most modeler's budgets. Lower cost planes like the larger foamies from FlyFly, Hobby Top Gun, and the fiberglass models from Nitro Planes can be flown on either a low-budget power system or enhanced by spending more money on certain component upgrades. This is the modeler's choice and is what makes this hobby fun.

I have always static balanced my own props and rotors without issue. Sometimes, an adapter or spinner are just so unbalanced that it is best to discard them. For most applications, only minor tweaking is needed. If the Haoye rotor isn't usable, then we'll look to other options for upgrading as previously mentioned.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Sansan

My Feedback: (1)

good news - when you put good to the busket - you get additional discount - 

Greg Covey

Very nice, Sansan! It's almost like HK prices but with better quality motors. Keep up posted on your experiments.

Sansan

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I'm afraid that it will be after cristmass due to post delays 

Greg Covey

Normally, we are running 90mm DFs on 6s with this Kv so I would guess that the smallest fan that the motor will fit in would be a good choice. I suspect that I will find the loading to be too high on the 127mm (or 5") fan given a normal rotor pitch.

ACES&8s

Low cost 90mm is my next post.
Thanks for the wonderful advice.
Guess I post the results, as best I can, being so new to EDF's.
HYopefully I have something to contribute, despite my ignorance.

Greg Covey

ACES,

Remember that the real fun is in the journey!

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My Castle 6.5mm bullet connectors arrived so I got started on my testing. I didn’t have any spare ICE 100 ESCs so I decided to use my ICE 200 ESC…which unfortunately turned out to be needed.

After soldering bullets on the ESC, and taking some LiPo packs out of cold storage, I needed to modify my thrust stand for the 120mm fan. It was originally built to test some Lander 90mm fans for a project last season. You can read more about its low-cost construction [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=1249]here[/link]. I screwed a few blocks of wood in place and I was ready to go. The Haoye 127mm fan seemed balanced when spinning it by hand but I planned to start it up slowly at first and check for excessive vibration.

My first test was with a 6s 4400 pack. While the power level seemed awesome and much higher than expected, about 4000 watts, I was disappointed that the current was so high at 250amps.

Next, I tried a 5s 4500 pack, which is shown in the video [link=http://www.gregcovey.com/reviews/Castle1717a.wmv]here[/link]. (6meg) The Castle ESC data logging from the video is shown in the 5s second photo below. While the fan performed well and I measured about 7lbs of thrust on my Rapala fish scale, the 3400 watts was obtained at a high 220amps.

It seems that Mark was correct about the Kv being too high for this application and my original guesstimate for the loading was way off. If the rotor had 6 blades instead of 7, I could try reducing the load by removing half the blades. I was happy with how the inexpensive Haoye fan performed but not with the end result using this motor. Perhaps the 5-blade 120mm Lander rotor or 5-blade E-Turbax rotor would reduce the load and provide more efficient thrust. I will still look into testing this option.

The smaller diameter (42.5mm) 15 Series motors may provide a better application fit in a smaller fan but I am not certain of the opening sizes in other fans as 36mm seems to be a standard.

It was fun testing this setup and safety should always be kept in mind. I’ll keep you posted if I find out more about spares for the Lander 120mm DF or other paths I may try.

Sansan

My Feedback: (1)

Thank a lot for the report!

Will you check it with a 4.5' ?- the current will be lower

The haoe 3.5 has opening of 39.5 mm
1520 engine seems to be good for 4' fan if it fit...
it has39.98mm41.78mm with fins - as the factory says

But anyway I've to order 200 amp ESC to be sure it will survive feeding those welder

Greg Covey

Sansan,

Yes, I have a 4.5" Haoye fan on order so I will take more measurements when it arrives. The 115mm rotor diameter is 12mm smaller than the 127mm rotor in the 5" fan so it is a step in the right direction.

I didn't think anyone sold the Haoye fans in the US anymore but I found out that AirShow R/C sells the 5" fan [link=http://www.airshowrc.com/accessories.html]here[/link].

Sansan

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In hobbyKing treadhttp://hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store...idproduct=4241byers speaks about 4 inch fan - they use 45 mm motors

Greg Covey

Sansan,

Thanks for the information. I may try that combination also. Note that the 4" fan seems to come with a 6mm adapter so you may need this [link=http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4866]5mm[/link] adapter to fit the 15 Series motor.

Before I disassembled the 5" fan, I took measurements using a 4s (30C) 4350mAh pack. The power level was around 1500 watts at 135 amps with 4.5lbs of thrust. Note the slightly higher level after my first 10 second run. This is typical LiPo performance improvement when the pack gets warmer.

Regards.

Greg Covey

FYI - Lee Liddle on RCG has an interesting thread using the Haoye 4.5" (114mm) DF with a Turnigy outrunner and Turbax rotor. The solution does require a higher skill set to create as the motor compartment and rotor need modifications but the result is an impressive 4900 watts at 15lbs thrust on 12s for around $100 less ESC. Great out-of-the-box thinking!

[link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1324088]Turnigy 4030-880 Outrunner/ Haoye 4.5" / Turbax rotor and stock rotor [/link]

Although I prefer an inrunner solution for EDF, with less modifications, many have been successful using high-power outrunners. One other area to note is that his testing has shown the $40 Turbax rotor to be more efficient than the Haoye rotor. The Turbax rotor also comes pre-balanced.

bruff

My Feedback: (18)

These guys carry the 4.5 Haoye fan in the states.
http://www.bmkdesigns.net/edf-fan-units/

Bob
I like their servos also.

Greg Covey

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the link. I haven't seen this place before. It looks like they also sell Scorpion motors.

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My Castle 1500 Series motor and Haoye 4" fan arrived. My my surprise, the 4" fan had the same opening as the 4.5" and 5" fans. This information was left off the HK Web site but it now allows me to try the larger 1700 Series motor in the 4" fan without the need for a 5mm adapter. The 4" fan comes with a 6mm adapter but I had also purchased a 5mm adapter to fit the 1500 series motor. Now either motor with fit.

I'll balance the rotor and report back...

Greg Covey

After adding a few small wood blocks, the 102mm (4") Haoye fan fit nicely on my test stand. The rotor was balanced as before using clear spray paint with the Dubro balancer and the operation tested as smooth as the original 5" fan.

The results were more reasonable this time using a 5s 30C 4550mAh Enerland pack. The three run ups to full throttle produced around 1900 watts at 115 amps. My fish scale measured 5.6lbs of pull.

One possible low-cost setup is as follows:[ul][*] Castle/Neu [link=http://www.castlecreations.com/promos/motor_clearance/motor_clearance.html]1717-1580Kv[/link] motor for $70[*] Haoye 4" (102mm) [link=http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4241]OR003-00111-7B[/link] Ducted Fan Unit for $22[*] TURNIGY K-Force [link=http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9328]100A[/link] Brushless ESC for $64[*] Turnigy 5000mAh [link=http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9517]5s 30C[/link] Lipo Pack for $63
[/ul]The Turnigy ESC can handle 100amps continuous and burst 150A up to 10 seconds. The 30C 5AH pack can deliver 150amps continuous so 10 second bursts up to 115amps is well within spec for all the components.

Sansan

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Thanks for results!

Tomcat_104

My Feedback: (42)

That sure looks like the Schuebler DS-94 that I bought from Tam a while back. A good fan but very expensive, it cost me nearly a $1000 bucks with a NEU motor. I'm going to order one of Extreme RC and see how the two compare. I'll do it in January and post my results (if it quits raining and snowing here).

I was referring to ACES&8s picture of a Tamjet EDF.

Sansan

My Feedback: (1)

Some test results for 4" edf from HAOYE
Fan has exellent balance

EDF has 48 mm opening for motor

Batt 2x 4500 3S turnigy nanotech
ESCHobbyking SS Series 190-200A

Motor 1 - Neu/Castle 15-20 1500 kV
Max Power 2180 W, 2240 g trust
motor stay cold
So with lips and trust tube 3000 g and more trust can be reached (IMHO),
however better to use little higher kV (1800-2200 for 6 S) or 7-8 S cells pack to get more trust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dj138lljDU

Motor 2 - Ammo 36-56 1800 kV
Max Power 2050 W, 2200 g trust

motor get hot

Greg Covey

Sansan,

Thanks for the report. It looks like we had similar results. I got 5.6lbs (2540g) of thrust at 1900 watts and you got 5lbs (2240g) of thrust at 2100 watts. The lower thrust at a higher power level can be attributed to either ESC efficiency or measuring errors.

I received my Lander 120mm rotor and 6mm adapter. It seems to be the same size as the rotor on the Haoye 4.5" DF. There were no signs of it being dynamically balanced but the quality of the rotor and adapter were excellent. The custom adapter has a long 1" area that fits very snugly onto the rotor. It looks very similar to my E-Turbax rotor.

I suggested to Tim Wan that he consider selling spares for these items for people that want to use it in other DFs. The Lander rotor would likely handle a greater power level than the Haoye rotor.

Greg Covey

Sansan,

Thanks for the report. It looks like we had similar results. I got 5.6lbs (2540g) of thrust at 1900 watts and you got 5lbs (2240g) of thrust at 2100 watts. The lower thrust at a higher power level can be attributed to either ESC efficiency or measuring errors.

I received my Lander 120mm rotor and 6mm adapter. It seems to be the same size as the rotor on the Haoye 4.5" DF. There were no signs of it being dynamically balanced but the quality of the rotor and adapter were excellent. The custom adapter has a long 1" area that fits very snugly onto the rotor. It looks very similar to my E-Turbax rotor.

I suggested to Tim Wan that he consider selling spares for these items for people that want to use it in other DFs.

Sansan

My Feedback: (1)

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Greg Covey

Sansan,

Thanks for the report. It looks like we had similar results. I got 5.6lbs (2540g) of thrust at 1900 watts and you got 5lbs (2240g) of thrust at 2100 watts. The lower thrust at a higher power level can be attributed to either ESC efficiency or measuring errors.

It seems to be measuring errors + heat losses - I have thin wires for measuring current so wires and connectors became hot


Did You check your combination on 6S ?

Sansan

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checked 4" haoye with NewCastle 1515 2200 on 6S

gen3v8

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Haoye 127mm fan, t600 880kv motor, platinim pro 120a hv speedy and 7.2amp 40c 8cell (4x3.6a 20c 4cells).
Putting out 4.5kg in my old and bashed 5.7kg f16.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXkdyoUds8o[/youtube]

Greg Covey

Very nice! I love the grass take-off too since this is what I usually deal with.

Did the Turnigy 600-880kv motor require any special mods to mount in the Haoye 127mm fan?

Thanks for posting your flight.