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George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

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George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Old 09-14-2011, 02:42 AM
  #26  
rayliza
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

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Old 09-14-2011, 03:26 AM
  #27  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Here's a link to some of George's recent projects. At the top of the list is his latest F-4, but his other projects are great as well. Click on the little thumbnail images to get to the galleries.

http://www.poweredmodelairplanes.com...lerplanes.html

Paul
Old 09-14-2011, 06:59 AM
  #28  
dionysusbacchus
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Luke, you have received some great help here by modelers who have come across with their instructions and plans. And the plans are of one of my first kits, so it relates to what you have.
Yea, this is a great thread now! I will still need some measurements, I'm particularly concerned about the wing incidence. Most of the shots of the plans are at an angle, but I'll do my best to get things right.

However it is possible that polyester will be a advantage here. It is obvious that this fuselage was damaged by heat and storage for these 27 years. You may be able to use heat here to help get it back in shape. By applying a heat gun to it and fashioning it into shape using rolled towels and then cooling it, it may take some of it's shape back. You may have to add some new formers to it. Once I got this fuselage back to shape as much as I could, I would glass the rear section to the main fuselage.
I'm just trying to figure out the best glue to use on polyester, I was thinking of thin CA then using polyester resin on both sides of the former to anchor it. Is there something I can add to polyester resin to thicken it up for this application? To straighten the bent parts of the fuselage I just taped them together and let them set so they would go back to the normal shape, it seems to have worked.

You say you have a Dynamax Fan? You say you are going to electric? The Dynamax fan has come into it's own with electric power. The increase in RPM is just what this fan needed and the electric motor makes this the fan of choice if you want to build aircraft of this size. It is not cheap, it needs monster batteries, but it is the one. Iron bay, who bought me out, also bought out Byron. We can pretty much say that he has buried, everything he has ever got his hands on. So I would forget abut trying to get Byron fan stuff. And forget about Larry Wolfe"s Turbax stuff. It was nothing but junk back in glow engine days and it is still junk today when electric powered.
I know, check this link out, this is the fan I'm ordering! [link=http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/dynamax.php]Dynamax Xtreme Pro 2[/link]
Iron Bay is the black hole of the modeling world, I tried contacting them for parts.
LOL, I like the straight talk, never did care for beating around the bush myself! I'm going with the Dynamax xtreme PRO 2 with 10S - 24,200 RPMs, 13+ pounds of thrust, 96A set up. That should be plenty for this plane, and I can always bump it up if I want later. I gave up on the Electric Jet Factory, it's to much work to buy from them. My last order of over $700 took them a month and a half to send out, I don't have that kind of time. Now I can't even call them on the phone or email them, nothing!

I have included a photo of my new F-4 here showing the location of it and the hatches used. This should give you a good reference to where you are going. Notice the fan is behind CG so the batteries can be forward to balance the aircraft without having to add weight. The ESC is a must in the duct tube.
I will use your drawings of your current project as a reference, unfortunately the fuselage is split right were I would like the hatch to be, so I have to kind of stick with the hatch as you had it, just make it smaller.

I will not get into the stab mechanism yet. You are a long ways from there.

In the photo,I do not see: the piece of the stab mechanism that goes up into the vertical, the lower rear section of the fuselage, the canopy.
I'm amazed at the simplicity of the stab mechanism, but I can't argue with it's success. I will beef it up slightly however.

I've posted some new pictures of all that I have, I picked up some Polyester resin from Walmart also. The canopy is ruined, I will make a new one.

When my retracts arrive from Spring Air I will start on the wing, can't wait to get started!
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Old 09-14-2011, 07:12 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

i was thinking of hatching the bottom for the fan.. and the top of the nose /canopy for the batteries.
i didn't want a hatch visable all the time on the ground and on the bottom its easy to hide in panel lines. also you won't need to access it alot so it could be screwed on and the canopy can be manitized with ten magnets.. a magnet to magnet hold down.

Old 09-14-2011, 07:18 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!


ORIGINAL: Tampaflyer

i was thinking of hatching the bottom for the fan.. and the top of the nose /canopy for the batteries.
i didn't want a hatch visable all the time on the ground and on the bottom its easy to hide in panel lines. also you won't need to access it alot so it could be screwed on and the canopy can be manitized with ten magnets.. a magnet to magnet hold down.

Really good ideas there Tampaflyer, I'll pick up some magnets today, thanks.


OK, Xtreme Power Systems has some awesome customer support, I got answers immediately! Here are their recommendations:

You will want to run the 12S setup, just to have the extra power for take off. It will also increase your flight times because you won't be using full power. The George Miller planes are pretty sturdy and will handle this much thrust anyways. The controller will be the same in either case. Just the batteries would be different.

We sell the assembled fan system. We also sell batteries. We do not sell controllers currently, but we will have our own line of controllers soon. We would recommend either a Castle HV140 or HV160. You could also use a HV120 with proper cooling.
Old 09-14-2011, 10:14 AM
  #31  
George Miller
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

I have always used thin CA for building aircraft. The capillary action gives a great advantage to making glue joints. And the most important thing to me with CA is it doesn't weigh anything. Epoxy does and it is surprising how much weight some modelers add to a aircraft by the glue they use. I have found that CA doesn't work well with epoxyglass fuselages. But then nothing but epoxy glues well to epoxyglass. CA does a great bond to Isophelic or polyester.

About the best glue for poly or iso is Ambroid. Remember it? It is a acetone base glue and being that is what one uses for thinning or cleaning around resin, it actually melts into the glass a little. By using the old method of applying glue to each part, seperating them and letting it dry and then re-gluing them together, you will have a glue joint that will be there after the crash.

Remember what makes resin cure is wax. There actually is wax in finishing resin like you bought at Sears. It comes to the surface when curing and seals the air from the resin, causing it to totally cure. (I never use curing resin. I use laminating resin and brush a coat of PVA mold release on it after finishing. I do not buy resin at Sears.

Be sure and always rough up the glass in the area of gluing.

Baking soda is a must when working with thin CA. Any time you need a stronger joint or need to fill imperfections in your glue joint, just apply baking soda and run your finger over it to produce a small fillet. If the CA isn't curing fast enough for you, throw some baking soda on it. Don't use accelerator. It makes CA cure faster, but it also weakens the glue joint.

Incidence for wing: Determine the half thickness of your wing by drawing a line from the center of your leading edge to the tailing edge at the root. Tape the lower rear section of the fuselage into place after you have glassed the two pieces of the fuselage together. Lay your fuselage on a level table. Slide it forward using a level sitting on the ridge back of the fuselage. When it is reading level, draw a line down both sides of the fuselage at the height of your wing center. There you have it !! Now just line up the center of your leading edge and the trailing edge.

Stab mechanism: One thing I know for sure: If ever a modeler who bought my F-4 ever lost it because of my stab mechanism failing I would have heard about it. He would have been wanting a new F-4 and I would have been sending it to him. "NOT A ONE" Many different stab mechanism out there. Most using metal, some ball bearings(go figure) etc. All weighing more than mine and for every ounce you put back there, you are going to need two or more up front.

I always built the mechanism myself. Except for the first few kits, the unit came completely assembled. There is more to it than one realizes when looking at it. The geometry of the steel pin going through it and being bonded to the stab pieces actually greatly increases it's strength. The vertical locks it in place in the fuselage and now strengthens the vertical and the stab. It sets up the whole tail section.

Considering yours has been laying around for 27 years I would check those glue joints very carefully and maybe run CA over them again. I would also drill some small holes through the layers of wood and let CA run through them and then filling them with baking soda.

Magnets: Not a fan of them. Remember that a large amount of air is flowing through this fuselage. You put this aircraft in some steep dive or something and the air pressure may just blow those magnets apart. Not worth the risk.

Intake ducting: A real interesting topic here. What does it do? The three things I can promise you it will do is make everything in your aircraft harder to get at, be in the way of your battery installation, and add a considerable amount of weight to your aircraft. I don't like these things. Does it make your fan work better? I have never seen this. I have tried it a few times on various aircraft and I have never seen a improvement in performance. Many manufacturers put it in their planes. It impresses some. But just because one is a manufacturer, doesn't mean he understands air flow. Do you understand the principle of boundrey layer air? It means that any air that is not moving becomes dead air and causes the moving air to flow over it like it isn't there. Your fan is sucking all the air it wants as long as your intakes are the right size. Tractor or pusher fan means nothing. My new F-4 is using a tractor "Lander" fan. It runs down the runway, accelerating like hell, rotates in about 100 feet, and will go vertical from there. They weigh 7 pounds with a fan producing 6.5 pounds. Your key to good performance is "keeping weight down". You do what you want, but adding intake ducting is going to be more than just a waste of time. You heard it here first !!!!



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Old 09-14-2011, 10:15 AM
  #32  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Placed my order at Xtreme Power Sytems, so we will see how soon my fan set-up arrives! This is what I will be going with:


Power ratings using XPS 30C 5000mAh batteries

12S - 26,900 RPMs, 16+ pounds of thrust, 116A


I'm going with the Castle Creations HV 120 for now, it's a much better price. Cooling should be fine if I have it sitting in front of the fan, shouldn't it? I like the way George has his, but I would have to change the stock Yellow Aircraft thrust tube, and I don't want to go through the trouble.
Old 09-14-2011, 10:28 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Great pictures George, and thank you for all the tips, especially the one about intake ducting! I have to admit it does impress me lol, but then I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to jets! I will most certainly take your advice, it also makes my life easier! I will follow your stab servo set up on your new F-4 also, that looks so clean, light weight and simple. I will move on with the magnets though, the ones I bought today are so strong and I've used them before. We will see if I should have followed your advice on that one too!
Old 09-14-2011, 12:55 PM
  #34  
George Miller
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

I see that one of the guys replied that he is thinking of putting the hatch on the bottom of his project. I guess that is fine, but one will find that they are into that hatch more than they think and having to invert the aircraft all the time to service it is a real pain.

Here is how I make a hatch. I cut it out. Run a strip of 1/32 back from the edge on the hatch and another strip of 1/64 on it to the edge. I then run a strip of 1/32 on the fuse sticking up to fit in the trough I have just made in the hatch. Now a strip of 1/64 on the front end where it will slide inside the fuse and hold the hatch down. Go to the rear and run strips across the fuse for the hatch to fit too. Now this trough that I have made aligns the hatch with the fuselage and you find the hatch is almost un-noticable when in place. And even though it is on the top, panel lines will hide it there too.

See Photos.

If you are glassing the upper rear section to the main fuselage, it would seem to me that you can cut out your hatch accordingly to need after you get your fan unit. Here is the kit drawing of my F-4. (see Photo) The CG goes right where you see that "+" on top of the fuselage. Considering the weight of the batteries that you are going to be using, your fan unit will have to be behind CG. You are going to want to put the batteries in the location of the center of the fuselage between the intakes. Now they are getting cooled too.

To determine the correct location of all this stuff so that you will not have to add weight to balance your aircraft, I suggest that you build the aircraft completely (less Paint) before deciding where to place this fan. I would then strap the fan, esc, and batteries to the outside of the aircraft and move them around to where is best for them to hit CG and then do the instillation of the fan. At least that is what I do when making a prototype.

ESC: One of the most important units in your EDF. Not a place to try and cut expense. If you have a power unit that is going to draw a serious amount of AMPs, it is very important that your ESC is serious overkill. Regardless of plane, one never buys a ESC that matches the draw of the motor. I will tell you that a 120 amp ESC is right on the edge of use for this fan unit and I think if you check with any company that is supplying this Dynamax fan, they too will tell you not to use this low of a ESC. First time this fan gets a little too hot and starts drawing a few more amps than rated, there you go. First time this ESC starts to get too hot, there you go. One shutting off or dying ESC and you are going to the ground. Remember this F-4 will not travel any distance to speak of when that engine quits in flight. Those intakes become drag, no air will get through that fan. If you are not in position to land, do not try to glide to the runway, you are not going to make it, probably will stall the aircraft, and it won't be pretty from there.

It is a must that you are using some other unit than the ESC to power your radio.

It is a must that you place this ESC inside the duct tube. The cooling of your ESC is number one in your fan installation. BTW: The larger the amp ESC rating compared to what is minimum needed, the cooler it will run. Example: My "lander" fan draws 71 amps constant. I use a 120 amp Castle. As per "lander" suggestion and they use themselves.

See photos
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:11 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

now the reason for a bottom hatch on a EDF is it won't be accessed like a IDF. but thats all on your style. if i have to acces a EDFat the feild , espically a large edf.. i propbably better take it home.
Old 09-14-2011, 01:57 PM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

I don't think I can build the plane and then install the fan, I'm going to have to do some guess work and install the fan behind the CG and then place the batteries for the CG. It's to much trouble and my hands are to big to be working in there! I already have a thrust tube also and that has to be installed now. Looking at the O.S. .91 set up on your plans, I think the electric fan should be even further back given the weight of all the batteries. I want them under the cockpit and that is really far forward. Just guess work I know, but I understand how you have to do things when you are designing a kit for others.


I like your hatch system George, very slick. And thanks for the tips on the ESC, I will go with the Castle HV 140. I will be using a separate radio battery also.

Tampaflyer, will you be mounting the Byron fan in the stock location? I like the bottom hatch idea also, on my foam EDF's I never access the fan at the field and I think this one will be the same. This is a light plane, and here I go again shooting from the hip, but that is the way you have to do it sometimes. If I do have to add weight I don't think it would be much.

Any and all ideas and opinion are welcome though, this thread has been a tremendous help, thanks to all that have contributed so far.
Old 09-14-2011, 02:09 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Man, is it great to to see you back into models.. I have had all your kits but for the f-22. 3- F-4.. I now have your latest vertion,missile rails on under side of fuse.will be using" XPS PRO ON 12S" for power. Any new C.G location on the F-4?? As per plans?? MAX weight for good sport flight??..Please bring back the F-22..
Old 09-14-2011, 03:20 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Rapptor, post some pictures, I want lots of info! You're using the same set up as me and you have lots of experience with these kits, so please share the knowledge! And yes it is great to have George here, but the Raptor fell into the Black Hole of modeling called Ironbay Models, none return from there and George is retired!

Tell me where you plan to install your fan and batteries?
Old 09-14-2011, 04:44 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Wow, I have a George Miller F-4 about 90% complete. I didn't realize that many were still around! I have a Byron fan with
a K&B 82 in mine! I think an EDF in one is going to be very cool. Good Luck with it!
Old 09-14-2011, 05:18 PM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Thanks Turkey Hunter, post some pictures of your F-4 for inspiration!

Let's talk about ESC's, I did some looking around, and the Castle Creations ESC just went through a big recall, they were defective. That has apparently really hurt supply, and it is really hard to find any at a decent price. I'm looking for the Castle HV140 or HV160, so if anyone knows where to get them and some good batteries please post.
Old 09-15-2011, 03:52 AM
  #41  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!


ORIGINAL: George Miller
Iron bay, who bought me out, also bought out Byron. We can pretty much say that he has buried, everything he has ever got his hands on.
why would anyone do something like that
Old 09-15-2011, 08:57 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

I met Gary Baker at least once in Texas. I think he is one of the finest modelers I have ever met. I believe he is in this photo taken at the Texas Fan-Fly.
George, great to see you here on RCU.

We did meet back in ‘89 or ‘90 at the Greater SW Fan Fly, but the master modeler you remember is probably Mike Smith. He is second from the left in your pic with his twin Dynamax/OS.77 powered Phantom. I was in the process of building my first Phantom when I attended that meet. I don’t think you ever got to see any of my Phantoms in person.
The T38 in my avatar was built from one of your kits. That was another very good flying jet with no bad habits. The person I sold it to, converted it to turbine and really liked the way it flew.

Your new smaller versions look just as good as the original.

It's great to see all these kits re-surfacing. Makes we wish I had another F4 and T38.
Old 09-15-2011, 09:27 AM
  #43  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Big plans but no execution in the end, very sad to say the least.
Maybe Iron Bay should sell George's stuff to someone who would actually do something with it. Are you listening Iron Bay?

Bart



ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie


ORIGINAL: George Miller
Iron bay, who bought me out, also bought out Byron. We can pretty much say that he has buried, everything he has ever got his hands on.
why would anyone do something like that
Old 09-15-2011, 09:48 AM
  #44  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

I did not know there were two modelers who converted my F-4 to twin Dynamax fans. But now that you have jogged my memory, I think you are right.

But I have seen your photos and that doesn't change anything about you being a great modeler.

I always loved the Texas Fan-fly and went to many of them. Some very fine modelers there.

I met Lynn McCalley(Probably not spelled right) a few times at the Texas Fan-fly. Even spent the evening with him. To me he is the greatest modeler I have ever met. His B-58 Hustler was beyond description, right down to the landing gear he fabricated.

Everybody please realize, and especially you Luke, I am only giving suggestions here based on my experience and ways of doing things. They are your models and you modelers have your ways. How you do it will work every bit as good as how I would do it.

Yes I am retired. And have no interest in bringing back any kits. The modelers who are interesting in aquiring one of my new F-4's are beyond count. If I could find some one who would like to kit it, I would work with them. But other than that, it isn't going to happen. My "Katonka" is a big hit everywhere I take it.

What Iron Bay has done is inexcusable to me, Byron, and a few others. He should be releasing this stuff to someone else who would love to put some of this stuff back on the market.
Old 09-15-2011, 10:08 AM
  #45  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

For you F-4 modelers out there, here are some 3-view color schemes I drew of some of my favorite F-4's. In my building of many F-4's I used some of these schemes.

They may be of some use to you.
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:26 AM
  #46  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

HI.the black bunny f-4 for sale is one of mine.. on rc groupes page
Old 09-15-2011, 11:45 AM
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djsqueeze
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Now that's true service. This is just one aspet of what being a modeler is about. I am surprised and happy to see that th original "architect" reached out and is going above and beyond to assist in the build of a model that is approx. 24-27yrs. old. I can't help but feel that were it something else he were working on, he might have been told to scrap it. [8D]
Old 09-15-2011, 01:24 PM
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dionysusbacchus
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!


ORIGINAL: George Miller

Everybody please realize, and especially you Luke, I am only giving suggestions here based on my experience and ways of doing things. They are your models and you modelers have your ways. How you do it will work every bit as good as how I would do it.

I understand George and your suggestions are very much appreciated, along with any and all opinions, without your help it would have been very difficult to tackle this project. Those are some great drawings too, lot's of color and variation with this bird.

George, can you post more pictures of how the finished intakes look with your new smaller Phantom? I realize it's a twin, but I just want to see what you did with the incoming air.

Now that's true service. This is just one aspet of what being a modeler is about. I am surprised and happy to see that th original "architect" reached out and is going above and beyond to assist in the build of a model that is approx. 24-27yrs. old. I can't help but feel that were it something else he were working on, he might have been told to scrap it.
Well said djsqueese, not many manufacturers out there that can match George!

HI.the black bunny f-4 for sale is one of mine.. on rc groupes page
Yea, I know. Now someone needs to buy that and bring it over here for an EDF conversion!
Old 09-15-2011, 04:25 PM
  #49  
George Miller
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Luke, It is not a twin. It is built on the same principle as my kits were. One large fan and a split duct tube.

Although I was the very first manufacturer to put a aircraft on the market being powered by a single fan and splitting the duct tube, Larry Wolfe came up with that silly word: "Bicarafarted" (or whatever it is) when he decided he wanted to copy my F-4 but make it smaller so he could put his Turbax in it.

An interesting thing about JHH jets: I have traveled all over the US for years and years, going to from 10 to 15 fan-flys every year. Including fan-flys in his back yard. I have never to this day seen a JHH jet at one or seen one fly. Saw Larry once in Mesa, Arizona. But don't recall him flying a jet.

Right now my F-4 is stripped out while I am painting it. So I can't take a photos to show you how it looks inside other than these photos attached that I shot during construction.

But the way this aircraft was built is more to what I think you should be doing with yours now, rather than the construction technique of the Glow powered Byron model you have.

I know you are going to do it your way, and I buy that, But I would not feel right if I didn't put every effort into showing you how I did this EDF for whatever help it will be to you.

More to come:

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:26 PM
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dionysusbacchus
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Yea, I guess you and Larry go way back! Interesting info on the early DF technology. Lol, I like your word for the tail pipe!

This is great then George, I'll copy you and your placement of things and mine should turn out pretty good. I'm not doing it my way, I may do some small things my way but I would rather copy what you have done with yours for the most part. My main concern is placement of the fan and batteries. I'd like to keep the placement of the Byron fan former in mine, because the main spar is glued to it, but I can move the fan around a bit because it's on rails.

My Dynamax Extreme should be here next week sometime, at that time I'd like to cut the new fuselage formers and get the placement figured out. Then I'll glass the fuselage together and start on the wing.

So post those pictures and I'll start marking my fuselage for the new formers.

One thing on yours, will you be removing your batteries? I can't tell how they are held in there.

Luke

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