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George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

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George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Old 09-15-2011, 08:43 PM
  #51  
George Miller
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Here is my suggestion for the construction of your F-4:

1. Glass the rear top section to the main fuselage using seaming tape. Forget about the duct tube and lower rear section at this time.

2. Figure where the main former and the slot for the wing spars must be and cut the fuselage accordingly.

3. Place the fuselage on a level table as previously described and mark it for the wing.

2. Build your inner wings completely including ailerons, retract pads, servo and outer wing spars. Keep sliding the wing spars into the fuselage to match the inner edge of the wing to the side of the fuselage. Then sheet the edge of the wing where it makes contact with the fuselage. leave the outer wing sections for later.

3. From your CG marks, figure the location of the hatch you are going to need. Remember you are going to need to get to the front area of the duct tube. Cut out and build hatch.

4. Re-draw the main former. Making the size of the whole for the fan just a little larger than the Dynamax unit. Notice in the photos attached that it does not go over the top but does go up the sides. And notice the slots cut into it where you will later install the ply for the fan unit. Be sure you cut these slots in the right place for mounting the fan to the blocks made later.

5. Line up the wings on the sides of the fuselage and pencil around them. Cut the additional holes in the fuselage for gluing.

6. Place the main former in the fuselage behind the holes for the wing spars. Slide the wings in place and use C-clamps to hold them to the former. Align wings and set the wings so they have no dihedral. Tighten clamps to hold everything in place. CA former in place, spars to former, and wings to fuselage. Apply additional CA to holes inside fuselage. Now give everything including those holes a filet of baking soda and additional CA.

7. Go to the front of the fuselage and cut out the canopy hatch. Build hatch. I use Ambroid, but the choice is yours for gluing in the nose wheel former.(this is one former you do not want coming loose). Cut out nose wheel doors. Install nose wheel retract and main retracts including main wheels. Cut length of the nose wheel strut so wings are at "0" incidence. The spring in the nose wheel retract is strong enough to push the front nose wheel door open when extending. Just hinge it and attach a spacer to the front of the retract to space the door properly. Servo operate the rear door. Install the splitter plates to the front of the intakes.

8. Now go the the rear of the fuselage and do the complete tail feather job including the stab servo. This has to be a serious servo and attached to the fuselage so that it will still be there when hell freezes over. Many have asked me about a hatch back there. I have always asked them: "What for? Do it right with a proper servo and you will have no reason to ever get to it. And if you crash, you will have no problem getting to it. It will be one of the pieces out there."

9. Place marks on the bottom of the fuselage at the CG shown to you in my previous 3-view. Tape a piece of triangle stock across the bottom of the fuselage there.

10. Place the batteries in the fuselage between the intakes, allowing a little room for movement forwards or back. Place the fan unit in the fuselage close to where you think it should go. Tape hatches on the fuselage beside where they go. Slide the duct tube in from the rear and tape the lower rear section of the fuse in place. Now slide that fan unit where it needs to be to hit CG on the aircraft. Measure out your fan mounts going past the main former so you can cut a slot in it to interlock into the slot in the former. Make these mounts out of ply and have them reach to the inside of the fuselage. Attach fan unit to these mounts and "THEN" CA them in place. (don't want any twisting or miss-alignment here)

11. Make a plug that is the shape of the outside of your ESC. Fiberglass over this plug and you have a housing for the ESC.

12. Fit this duct tube to this aircraft. (You may have to trim off the fan end for it to fit the end of the fuselage) Slide it over the edge of the fan unit. Cut a hole in it where the housing for the ESC will go. Glass it on.

13. Slide the rear lower section of the fuselage in place and CA it there. CA the duct tube in place at the rear of the fuselage.

14. From here, it is duck soup.

Study these photos: Everything should be made clear by them.

These are my suggestions to you. How you do it is up to you. But I have done what I felt I needed to do.
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Old 09-15-2011, 10:19 PM
  #52  
George Miller
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

When using fan units that draw these extreme amount of AMPS, I fell it is necessary to get some air over the batteries.

I never buy 6 cell batteries. To limiting for other uses. I buy and use two 3 cells so I can use them as just 3 cells on other aircraft.

I don't think this will work for you considering you are going to be running 10 to 12 cell.

My mounting of the batteries in my F-4 is very simple. I make two pieces out of ply with a groove in them for a ti-wrap and a block on the front of them to stop the batteries from being able to slide back or forward. I screw them up through the bottom of the fuselage. Eventually when I get this F-4 totally finished, I will also CA them in place. But I will not know exactly where they go until I CG the completed aircraft.

I can now slide my ti-wraps through the groove and around the batteries. This holds them in place without interfering with any air circulating around them.

Just cut the ti-wraps and the batteries are out.
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:05 AM
  #53  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Glad to found this forum.

Thought George Miller was kind of a tabu name in our hobby and very plased to see you helping rc fellow members and more pleased to know you are still building.

Considered building a A-10 from your design and in doing so learned all of your background of what I found in internet. At the end the A-10 was to big for budget, and space requirements.

Will like to recomend this place for cheking the fan options availlable:

http://www.extremerc.com.au/estore/i...4da223b9740517

Since all the advances in electronics and batteries there are to many options and some with doubtfull information.

Cheers,

Juan
Old 09-16-2011, 10:19 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

i have seen a balsa built GMa-10 fly off grass at the Zepher electic fly in... used 2 101mm(himax fans) and 2 5000 mah 6 cells.. had spring air retracts... and convinced me that EDFis really the way to go.

it is(was of last sat) hanging in Graves hobby shop in orlando.
Old 09-16-2011, 12:19 PM
  #55  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

ORIGINAL: juanjulian

Glad to found this forum.

Thought George Miller was kind of a tabu name in our hobby and very plased to see you helping rc fellow members and more pleased to know you are still building.

Considered building a A-10 from your design and in doing so learned all of your background of what I found in internet. At the end the A-10 was to big for budget, and space requirements.

Will like to recomend this place for cheking the fan options availlable:

http://www.extremerc.com.au/estore/i...4da223b9740517

Since all the advances in electronics and batteries there are to many options and some with doubtfull information.

Cheers,

Juan
I am wondering where you got the impression that I was "kind of a tabu" and why you would think that? I doubt very seriously if "ALL" of my background is on the internet !!!
Old 09-16-2011, 04:41 PM
  #56  
dionysusbacchus
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Thanks so much for those very detailed insturctions George, I will follow them, I'm hoping this thing goes together pretty quick. I was just at Bomber Field today and saw a nice Century Jet F-4, very inspiring! You have gone above and beyond and I am very thankful for that, I feel I am ready to get this plane in the air where it belongs! I did notice that my nose section in the cockpit area was under some pressure, so I am going to have to make a former for that area. I see how your batteries are set up now, looks really slick and very secure.

Thought George Miller was kind of a tabu name in our hobby
lol!


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huZVp2UGe9k[/youtube]
Old 09-16-2011, 07:21 PM
  #57  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Mr George:

No bad intentions in my post, I apologize for not choosing my words correctly, ALL for sure is a big word and probably should have used GURU instead of TABU.

It is a honor to have you in this forum.

Cheers,

Juan


Old 09-22-2011, 05:59 AM
  #58  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

We know Juan, no worries.

I just want to say that I have been working on the Phantom, I cut some shiny new foam wings with my good friend Ed. Just made some quick templates out of lite ply and capped them with aluminum duct tape, nothing fancy.

Currently I am working on the molds for the rear fan shroud thingy and the tail pipe, will post pictures when I get that done.

So far though, I have not received my retracts or my fan engine combo, so I need those to actually start the wing anyway.


I can't upload pictures for some reason, man RCU is becoming a real dog!

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Old 09-22-2011, 08:21 AM
  #59  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Got a package this morning, man, is that XPS power system intimidating! Very well made and ready to install, just awesome!

I'll try pictures again...


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Old 10-16-2011, 03:34 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!


Luke

We normally answer right away with acknowledgement to our customer when
we receive an order. We will be shipping your order asap.

Bill Watton
Spring Air
If this is Spring Air's ASAP, I'd hate to see their slow times!


Just an update for those interested in this build. Spring Air retracts has been very difficult to deal with. I sent them an ultimatum about a week ago and they finally responded, but still no retracts. So we are going on a month and a half with no retracts, next week I will be reluctantly filing a claim with PayPal to get my money back. I'm not saying that everyone that does business with Spring Air will get screwed like me, but I will make this recommendation based on my experience, don't do business with Spring Air.

In this time I've received everything else needed to build this plane, hell, I've even made templates and cut new foam wings! I will build this plane, but for the time being I've moved on to a turbine build to get my turbine waiver, but stick with me on this if you are interested, I will finish this plane!

If others have George Miller F-4 pictures of any kind, please post them.

Thanks,

Luke
Old 10-16-2011, 11:54 AM
  #61  
George Miller
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

I have never heard of such a thing with Spring Air Retracts. I have known Bill and his wife since Christ was a cowboy. They are the nicest people you will ever meet. Considering the amount of kits I sold that required his retracts and never one complaint from one customer about getting the retracts. I am still using spring air, still ordering them, and still getting them almost immediately.

Something must be going on here.

I have to call Bill about some other items tomorrow and I will look into this and get back to you.

I do suggest you hang in there. These retracts are so superior to any other you will fine, They will not cost you a arm and a leg, be over engineered, or just plain fail on you.

Like I have always told others. When something goes wrong with your retract set up, and you loose air, they come down !!!!! Can't count the amount of aircraft I have seen on their bellies with Robarts and the likes. Just last week at our Fan Fly was the last time I saw this.
Old 10-16-2011, 12:45 PM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

I would and do appreciate your help George, thanks. I agree, I really want to use the Spring Air retracts, but I'm getting close to my time limit with PayPal and if I wait any longer I will not be able to get my money back.

I'll hold off one more day, but then I'll have to file a claim.

Thanks again,

Luke
Old 10-16-2011, 12:55 PM
  #63  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

There is no doubt in my mind at all that you will get these retracts from Spring Air. Bill is just not like that. I do not know why it has taken so long and understand your frustration, but you will get them.

Something else I will mention to you. If you are going to use Robarts Scale wheels for your mains, I suggest you also get their foam rubber insert for the tires. These work great and really assist with the tires having more absorption on landings.
Old 10-16-2011, 04:35 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

THERE WAS AN F-22 ON RCU FOR SALE.,$450.00 ,I OFFERED THE GUY $1000.00 ,HE SAID HE WANTED TO TRADE ONLY.YOU KNOW I WAS GONNA MAKE MOLDS .. AND BRING BACK THE BEST F-22 EVER MADE!!
Old 10-16-2011, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Yes, I have heard from a couple modelers who are trying to get that YF-22. Something doesn't sound right here either. $450.00 is a giveaway to start with. I have a friend in our club that has one in the box. He keeps talking about starting it, but no sign of that yet. I do know that he won't let go of it for anywhere near $450.00. Another modeler in our club sold his F-8 here on RCU just a while back for a starting price of $600.00 and they were fighting over it. I do have another modeler in our club that has a T-38 in the box. He will not part with it either. I told him to be sure and let me pull a mold off of it if he ever decides to sell it.

I sure had a lot of fun with my YF-22.

To start off, the first time I ever heard of a YF-22 was at the Texas Fan Fly and I was approached by the engineers at General Dynamics to build the Flow Test Model. Then I asked if I would be allowed to make a kit of it and was informed that I could not release my kit until after the YF-22 was introduced at Edwards. But I built my prototype and was flying it at my club site long before the YF-22 was announced to the public.

Had a lot of fun with my fellow modelers every time I brought it out. They all wanted to know what the hell it was, and I would tell them all: "I can't tell you.........".

I had it on the market the same month the real one was announced.

Very shortly after that I brought it to the Fan Fly that the club in Lancaster has every year. Their flying field was on Edwards. There I was approached by two Air Force officers that had these two little American flags that were in the real YF-22 for it's maiden flight and they wanted to know if I wanted to carry them in my YF-22 model. I felt that would have been quite a honor, but I was unable to fit them in the YF-22 in a safe manner.

At the Fan Fly in Mesa, I was buzzing along and throttled back to land and discovered that I had no control of the throttle. (The throttle rod from the servo had broken) I informed the announcer of that and he let everyone know that I was in trouble and would have to stay in the air until it ran out of fuel. I kept circling at the end of the runway until it died and made a perfect dead stick. I was awarded "The Best Flame Out Award" (the landing is in my Video catalog if you want to see it)

Talked to Col. Bob Thacker a while back. A very close friend of mine. At 94 years of age, he is flying one of my YF-22's with a turbine in it.

It is a outstanding model to fly. I am sorry that you were not able to get the YF-22 and put it back on the market.

Old 10-17-2011, 03:20 AM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Thanks all thr great info. If your buddy ever wants to sell [or rent] your F 22 please contact me. {will pay good money} I even offered to RENT the F-22 on RCU for three weeks. Offered $650.00.. If i ever get one ill get it out there. Im just a modeler who wants to see KITS again..I have your T-38 im redoing now. A guy got it from a kit manufacture and it was bad!! I told him i would clean it up and use it as a plug.. He gets a, free good usable fuse for the deal..I did my own YF-22 , and the F-22 plugs and molds. Took a year and 12 gallons of bondo, lol. They flew super. I won - DESIGNER ACHIEVMENT AWARD at FL. JETS. with it. All molds got damage in huricane. Thanks for helping all the guys in here ,,,,,RALPH D
Old 10-17-2011, 08:23 AM
  #67  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!


ORIGINAL: dionysusbacchus

I would and do appreciate your help George, thanks. I agree, I really want to use the Spring Air retracts, but I'm getting close to my time limit with PayPal and if I wait any longer I will not be able to get my money back.

I'll hold off one more day, but then I'll have to file a claim.

Thanks again,

Luke

I talked to Bill at "Spring Air Retracts" today. He has been working on a order from a foreign manufacturer for "600" units. Needless to say, this has put him behind on his orders.

That pretty much explains it to me !!! These things do happen. I know we would all like to get the item we order "ASAP", but sometimes this just can't happen. The last Lander fan I ordered took a while to ship because of illness in the family.

I did mention your name, he said he would look into your order. He also says the best way to make contact with him is through E-mail. He says he reads them everyday.

I think your non-recommendation of "Spring Air Retracts" is invalid.

Old 10-17-2011, 08:59 AM
  #68  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!


ORIGINAL: George Miller


ORIGINAL: dionysusbacchus

I would and do appreciate your help George, thanks. I agree, I really want to use the Spring Air retracts, but I'm getting close to my time limit with PayPal and if I wait any longer I will not be able to get my money back.

I'll hold off one more day, but then I'll have to file a claim.

Thanks again,

Luke

I talked to Bill at ''Spring Air Retracts'' today. He has been working on a order from a foreign manufacturer for ''600'' units. Needless to say, this has put him behind on his orders.

That pretty much explains it to me !!! These things do happen. I know we would all like to get the item we order ''ASAP'', but sometimes this just can't happen. The last Lander fan I ordered took a while to ship because of illness in the family.

I did mention your name, he said he would look into your order. He also says the best way to make contact with him is through E-mail. He says he reads them everyday.

I think your non-recommendation of ''Spring Air Retracts'' is invalid.


I don't want to sound harsh, but I think it's rude to burden a customer with personal matters. My Mother died suddenly and I continued to fill orders for customers at that time. If you can't ship an order then it needs to be known. If I had known he was not shipping orders to what he considers as the less important little guys like me then I feel I'm justified in not doing business with them. Nothing mentioned that on his web site, I called him on the phone and we talked as I clicked "Pay for order now". He did not tell me he would not be able to ship an order, I'm pissed off now!

I still stand by my recommendation to not do business with these guys, if he was up front with me I would have just filed his link in the trash bin and would have been building a Phantom now with Robart retracts, that by the way spring down! He'll check into my order, well let me kiss his feet...

Old 10-17-2011, 10:13 AM
  #69  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

I wan to do a little comparison of service, we'll use Robart as an example. I ordered some wheels, brake kits, valves and other parts from Robart for my turbine jets, here is my confirmation email:

[email protected] to me
show details Oct 9 (8 days ago)
Thank you for your order, here is your receipt:

Order #: 1318180604-752 (01:47:07 PM)
Order Date: 10/09/2011
Order Total: $239.41

I received a call from Robart on Monday informing me my order would be delayed a few days and wanted to know if I still wanted the priority shipping! I said yes, and I received my order on 10/14/2011!


Just some info so others can stay informed, and you can clearly see that Spring Air is not following the law:

What is the Mail Order Rule
The Mail Order Rule was issued by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to correct growing problems with late or undelivered mail order merchandise. Under this Rule, the vendor has a duty to ship merchandise on time. He also must follow procedures that the rule requires if he cannot ship ordered merchandise on time.
When there is a shipping delay, the Rule requires that the vendor notify customers of the delay and provide them with an option either to agree to the delay or to cancel the order and receive a prompt refund. For each additional delay, customers must be notified that they must send in a signed consent to a further delay or a refund will be given.
Although most members of the mail order industry adhere to the Rule's requirements, there are some who do not. The FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection monitors consumer complaints to ensure that businesses comply with the Rule. The FTC also provides compliance information and assistance to all industry members.
When a vendor offers to sell merchandise by mail, the Rule requires him to have a "reasonable basis" for expecting to ship within the time stated in his solicitation.
For example, if the vendor knows before advertising some products that suppliers are on strike and are likely to remain on strike for several months, he does not have a "reasonable basis" for expecting to ship within a month.
The shipping date, when provided in the ad offer, must be clearly and conspicuously stated.
ADVERTISEMENT
Triumph Sweaters S,M,L Beige or Blue
$29.95 plus tax
Allow 5 weeks for shipment.
If the ad does not provide a shipping date, the vendor must ship the merchandise within 30 days of receiving a "properly completed" order. An order is properly completed when you send payment accompanied by all information needed to fill the order: Payment may be made by cash, money order, check, or credit card, according to the vendor's policy. If a credit card is used for a purchase, the order is properly completed when the vendor charges your account.
When a vendor cannot ship on time, he must provide the customer with an "option" notice. The notice must provide an option to cancel the order and receive a prompt refund, or to agree to a delay in shipping. And, as with the original date, the vendor must have a reasonable basis for setting that shipping date.
Old 10-17-2011, 12:03 PM
  #70  
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Hi Rapptor, I bought a GM F22 kit from a guy at a jet meet a few years back, as a spare, since I have 2 flying. It is a Ralph Saxton copy of Georg's F22 ((not sure if george ever authorised the copy), anyway, I would be willing to sell it to you, I have to find a box big enouht to ship it, and figure out the cost for shipping from Northern California, if you are interested

PS: as George's test pilot on the electric F-4 I can tell you it flys great, lots of power and really easy to fly, it slows down for landing really well.

Kerry
Old 10-17-2011, 08:53 PM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

+ 1 !
Old 10-17-2011, 09:24 PM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Luke, I think you should call Bill at Spring Air Retracts, tell him to send your money back, and buy a set or Robarts. Better yet, Bill is my friend, I will call him, tell him to send you your money back and not sell you a set.
Old 10-17-2011, 11:37 PM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!


ORIGINAL: RAPPTOR

+ 1 !
Hello Ralph,

As you can see, I have contacted my friend, Kerry, who has the YF-22 and he is willing to work with you.

Kerry is one hell of a nice guy and the best pilot in the club. Not only that, but he is the best test pilot I know besides myself.(and there is a big difference between a good pilot and a good test pilot) I injured my back installing a sliding glass door in my shop this May and was laid up, unable to walk more than a few feet and unable to stand more than a couple minutes. So he has been doing all my flying for me for this whole summer. I am finally being able to get around again.

Good luck on your venture. Any help you need with it from me, just let me know.

I think you already know this, but the YF-22 requires a special set of retracts. All three are firewall mount units. This makes the YF-22 very simple in construction and very light at the same time. I know he doesn't advertize them anymore, but if you contact Bill of "Spring Air Retracts", I am sure he will still make a set for you.

And yes, Ralph Saxton worked for me and he had permission to reproduce any of my kits for his benefit. When I retired, he laid-up a glass fuselage for himself of all my kits to use as plugs. I also gave him the molds for the B-26's from the "Always" movie. He is a excellent fiberglass man and modeler. Lost contact with him after all these years. I wonder if he is still around?
Old 10-18-2011, 03:03 AM
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dionysusbacchus
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!


ORIGINAL: George Miller

Luke, I think you should call Bill at Spring Air Retracts, tell him to send your money back, and buy a set or Robarts. Better yet, Bill is my friend, I will call him, tell him to send you your money back and not sell you a set.

I'm sorry this had to happen, being your friend and all, but I got jerked around, I was not the one jerking someone else around, so I know that in the position I'm in, it can be lost that I'm the one getting screwed. I should not have to send an ultimatum after 35 days of no contact by the vendor to get a response. I don't just send my money away and forget about it and then sit around picking my nose on the couch waiting for someone to do something, I demand service when I pay for it. George, don't worry about telling him not to sell me anymore retracts, that is done.

I've done my part as a responsible citizen and filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission.

I'm ending my participation in this thread, thanks to all that helped me with what I needed to get this plane in the air and especially to you George, I made a new manual based on your very detailed posts!


Old 10-18-2011, 03:41 AM
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Default RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!

Cant thank you enough.. Is it ok with you if i make molds from this plane>>?? I m not trying to sell any mass production. Maybe a few for friends and die hard" RAPTOR "guys.. I am full of ASIAN ARFS, of not so good ,quality.PEOPLE BUILDING THEM, ASSEMBLE SHOES ONE DAY, AND JETS THE NEXT..LOL.. Need kits again ..THANKS AGAIN....

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