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George Miller scratch builds a F-14 "TOMCAT"

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George Miller scratch builds a F-14 "TOMCAT"

Old 02-07-2016, 02:39 PM
  #51  
George Miller
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Originally Posted by GUY89ZX7 View Post
Ok George, I will be following this thread. I have the full set of plans along with the instructions. I plan on building 1 in the future,so I will have to copy this thread when you are done with the f 14.
And when you decide to do that, you contact me and we will exchange E-mails. In those I will give you more information and details on how to correct the shape of most of the formers, ribs, etc.etc. drawn on those plans and areas that are not even on those plans.

I have mentioned it here, but have not gone into the detail about them. I felt that really wasn't necessary here.

As for the instructions, you can just throw those away.
Old 02-07-2016, 04:20 PM
  #52  
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Ok thanks George, will do.
Old 02-07-2016, 04:44 PM
  #53  
George Miller
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The fuselage is getting it's coats of mold release wax now and being I have to wait a while for better weather, I am moving on to the verticals.

But something else came to me while doing this area.

I fell it is a area that is not covered much in most construction articles about scratch building.

Drawing your plans.

Now I will admit there is actually very little I do in the form of plans for most of my builds. But I do want to show you my procedure that is one of the first things one must do when building a model.

Getting a accurate 3-view and blowing it up to the size of your model.

The way I still do it is as old as modeling itself. I feel it is one of the accurate ways to do it. I have never cared for the procedures of taking drawings or 3-views to Kinko and having them blow them up with one of their machines. Their machines use photo lenses and anyone who knows anything about cameras and lenses knows there is distortion involved. Have them blow something up very large and you will have very thick lines and if you start measuring it in different directions you will fine it has been stretched.

Now the first thing you have to do is find a good 3-view. Boy is that a tough one. I have found that the 3-views that you get in some of the better plastic models are about the best. If you decide to not spend the money for one of those, you pretty much have to go to the internet.

Not really hard to find 3-views on the internet. Just hard to find a good one. Some very low resolution, some with their work at weird angles, and some that are just plain: a joke.

I down loaded many 3-views of the F-14. This is the best one I found: 275KB and JPG,



Obviously if you are scratch building you have to have and know how to work with art programs.

I converted this to a TGA file of 5000KB, Kicked out what I did not want, re-positioned everything, and then re-drew all the lines to single kb lines.

Then I start making measurements from F-14 specs, the hundred or so photos and walk around photos i down loaded, and correcting all the areas that are just plain out on the 3-view. And you will fine them all over the place.

And here is the 3-view I wind up with. It is attached as a JPG file. Ya have no choice here.



Now if you compare this to the one above you will notice that the aft area is all wrong on the original 3-view. Many other measurements were off, but I will not get into all of it here.

OK I have the 3-view I am going to work with. The next thing I will do to it is to draw a ruler to the scale of the aircraft I want to build. You will notice it in black on the top right and top right side. I then, in blue, graft the area I need to get all my measurements.



There you have it. All the measurements for scaling the whole aircraft. Just take butcher paper, draw 2" squares on it, and transpose the lines on your 3-view to the paper.

Here is my drawing of the verticals. I will be making one of these with a little extra at the base because they are both at angles on the F-14 and I will fit them when I get that far. And of course I only make one, because it too will be a plug and I will be making them out of glass.



to be continued . . . .
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Last edited by George Miller; 02-07-2016 at 04:46 PM.
Old 02-08-2016, 04:36 PM
  #54  
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yeah I need to finish that T-38 from WoW planes ,it was easy to sand the foam to shape .hoping the 90mm Jet Fan on 8s or 12s will get the job done 8s flies a 10lbs plane pretty good ,the 12s set up get just about 14-15 lbs of thrust .there is a thread on it in R/c groups.
I bet you got more F-4 time than any body else in this hobby.
Old 02-09-2016, 01:28 PM
  #55  
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I have finished carving the vertical and the sub fins. They are now ready for their .5 cloth and epoxy. I will be making these items out of fiberglass so these will just be used as plugs. I really am not saving all that much weight by doing that, but it does make them stronger and less prone to dents and hanger rash. And the left vertical and sub fine both have a NACA scoop in them and that will be much easier to represent in the hollow glass item. Also there are things sticking out the back of the sub fin. Don't ask me what it is or does?



"Rudders on a RC Jet".

To me they serve the same purpose as "Wheels on a Battleship".

Let's see now: We are not dealing with torque or "P" factor and there is no prop blast over any control surface on a jet.

Ever seen a jet that did not have trike gear? That is because you don't have any of these things. When you accelerate with a jet, by the time you have enough speed to get any response to rudder input you would be sideways to the runway already. The nose wheel steering is what you have, be it a real jet or a RC model.

I can't think of any maneuver I want to do in flight that I would need a rudder for except maybe a knife edge and that isn't a good enough reason. This is scale flying. If you want to do tricks, go fly pattern or IMAC.

OK what does it take to make functioning rudders on a Jet?

First off, unless you are planning on spanning that distance between the nose wheel and the rudder, or rudders in this case, you are needing another servo or maybe even two. You are going to need some sort of control rods from servos to rudders. In most cases you are going to wind up with control horns sticking out of your nice scale model on the rudders.(ugly)

And when you are all done, you have added all this more weight to you model to get these wheels on this battleship. And a good portion of it is going to be way back of CG and that will require even more weight to balance this battleship.

Are you getting the picture?

Now just off the top of my head, I would say I probably have as much Jet time as anyone else in this hobby. And I would also say I have probably produced as many jet kits as anyone else in this hobby.

None of my kits, other than the A-10, had functioning rudders and in all it's flights, I never touched it. And I never put a functioning rudder in any of my personal jets.

And it also makes building the model simpler and less time.

Think about it. So many thing when making a model are just done because one has done it that way before.
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Old 02-09-2016, 09:18 PM
  #56  
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all true but some Jet meets require rudder and brakes for turbine jets ...not real sure EDf needs a rudder..some time brakes come in handy.
Old 02-10-2016, 08:01 AM
  #57  
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The things sticking out on the back of the ventral fins were used for tow bar hookups and sometimes for tying down the airplane. They were seldomly used .

Last edited by Castel; 02-10-2016 at 09:11 AM.
Old 02-10-2016, 08:06 AM
  #58  
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The club I was in when I lived in California put on a large Jet Fly-IN every year. We also had a lot of turbine jet fliers in the club.

Never seen a turbine jet without brakes. Considering the size and weight of them, without brakes none of them could land without overrunning the runway. 30 pounds of aircraft takes some distance to get slowed down considering the speed they land at.

Never heard of a Turbine jet being required to have a rudder by people putting on a Jet Fly, but it still may be so at some.

But all this has nothing to do with rather a rudder is useful on a jet or not.

Believe me, it just isn't. And if you don't believe me, just put a rudder on your jet and see how many times you have to use it.
Old 02-10-2016, 08:10 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Castel View Post
The things sticking out on the back of the ventral fins are used for tying down the airplane. They were seldomly used, chains hook up to them .
Thank you Castel,

I never thought of that. But I am glad to know what it was for.
Old 02-10-2016, 09:22 AM
  #60  
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I edited my post above, they were mostly used for tow bar hookups, sometimes for chain tie downs too .
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Old 02-10-2016, 09:56 AM
  #61  
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Outstanding Castel. Thanks for the photo. I can add it to my walk-a round collection
Old 02-10-2016, 05:49 PM
  #62  
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yeah I have rudders on most of my jets ...but yeah once I leave the ground I rarely use it . do like saving weight . I have a 70mm F-20 kit I make it has ball bearing on the wheels and I have brake on that one cause it rolls forever.LOL but yeah most EDf don't need brakes.

cool pic castle . never get close enough to see that kind of detail .
Old 02-11-2016, 05:16 AM
  #63  
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Guy's,

I use these electric brakes:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2261620

I have a set on 90mm 10lb L-39 and they work great. I definitely need them as our asphalt strip is a little short for jets. The quality of the machining and the quality of the rubber tire are excellent and the price is very reasonable. JP Hobby in China is one of the trusted manufacture's out there. The owner (Shane) keeps a presence in the forums and is there to help out. They also sell electric retracts and some very nice all metal EDF units. I am waiting for them to release the larger version of the brake units as I need a 4" set for my Panther.

Dean
Old 02-11-2016, 06:34 AM
  #64  
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Holy Cow George I'm so glad that I found this thread so early on.......subscribed and will be copying and pasting into a Word document! (Actually have an old set of those F-14 plans sitting around in the basement)

BTW....for anyone wondering about actually starting from scratch to develop and market a 1/7 scale version for sale here's a thread started in 2009 by a gentleman who tried....

http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=44620

He started July 2009 and I'm pretty sure he bailed July 2015....I believe the project was up for sale a little while ago

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Old 02-11-2016, 08:35 AM
  #65  
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It's invertmast check him out on YouTube he is doing a fw 152 right now.he hasn't bailed on the f14
Old 02-11-2016, 08:53 AM
  #66  
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George I wish you still made or offered the 74" long F-4 as it would be perfect for twin 90mm fans! I converted the Yellow F4 to twin 90's back in 2005 was never happy with the outline of that model.
It flew well.

Both sizes are beautiful, you are quite the artist with model airplanes
Old 02-11-2016, 08:56 AM
  #67  
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And when you are on the ground, Air Sally, I think you are actually using the nose wheel steering more than the rudder there too.

And brakes are a good idea. Especially if your runway is short.

Our field has a 700' X 60' paved runway and every week mowed grass that is at the same level as the runway, all around it.

Initially I planed to install brakes, but have decided not to install them at this time. But when finished and during it's test flights before painting, I will be finding out if I do need to put brakes on it. Considering I expect it to weigh about 15 pounds, it may need them.

Lander also makes electric brakes up to 3 1/2" wheels. They are also another one of those quality manufacturers "over there". I use there all metal fans in my F-4's. After a flight you can touch the fan and it is barely even warm.

And as strange as I found it, they also make a set of electric retracts that I swear were made just for my F-14. All metal, designed for aircraft weighing up to 15 pounds, and have 100 degrees of travel instead of just 90. And I need that additional 10 degrees.
Old 02-11-2016, 09:12 AM
  #68  
George Miller
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Originally Posted by Bob_B View Post
George I wish you still made or offered the 74" long F-4 as it would be perfect for twin 90mm fans! I converted the Yellow F4 to twin 90's back in 2005 was never happy with the outline of that model.
It flew well.

Both sizes are beautiful, you are quite the artist with model airplanes
It is a sad story Bob_B

When I decided to retire, I quit working for "I.L.M", and sold "Custom RC Aircraft"

I advertised that it was up for sale and received many offers. The highest one came from "Iron Bay Models". He had also bought out "Byron" and a few others.

I expected he was going to continue producing the kits and also the Byron fans and kits.

But instead, he buried everything he ever bought out. Through the years I have had conversations with him, other modelers have tried to get items from him, etc.etc. All to no avail. He just says he is too busy with other stuff to bother with this stuff. I have even told him if that is the case, release this stuff to someone else so it can be on the market again.

But nothing has ever happened with him.

I know one person who with my permission, used one of my F-22's for a plug and made molds of it. But I do not believe he ever offered it as a kit.

Other than that, I guess everything I did is history now.
Old 02-11-2016, 09:21 AM
  #69  
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That is sad, why would someone buy these product lines never to do a thing with them. Very sad!
Old 02-11-2016, 11:07 AM
  #70  
George Miller
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I do not know Bob and I never understood it.

And when you consider all the molds, videos, templates, instructions, canopy plugs, etc. etc. I assure you all this went for a pretty penny.

People ask me why I retired at 55. I retired because I could. LOL

"Custom RC aircraft" was still doing very well.

Like you, to this day, I still get contact from modelers who are trying to get my kits.
Old 02-12-2016, 11:02 AM
  #71  
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Hello George,

I have a question. I made this plug for the tip tanks on my Panther. I used white foam and spun it on a drill press to shape it. I glassed it with 1.4oz cloth and epoxy and am going to use the isophthalic resin to make the parts. Do you think I will be able to cut it off the plug vertically where I have the dashed line, or horizontally or a combination of both? I would like to cut it vertically right where the wing spar enters it and would like some advice before I actually cut it. This will be my first crack at making parts off a plug without a mold. I was happy with the way the plug turned out. It took a lot less time to make the plug then it would have to build them up and strip plank them. I would like to use two 5oz layers off cloth and finish with a 1.4oz layer. Do you think that would be appropriate for tip tanks? I can see I will have to watch the overlap areas around the front radius as it is pretty curvy there. Any last tips you might have before I do the layup?

Thanks,
Dean
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Old 02-12-2016, 12:31 PM
  #72  
George Miller
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HI Buddy,

Two layers of 5 alone should be enough cloth. I actually use 6 oz cloth, but I feel 5 oz will be as good here. If I was actually going to apply another light layer of cloth to it, I would wait until I had it off the plug and would be using that layer to seam the tank

After you have laid up your cloth, and the resin has cured on your final layer, give it another coat or resin to fill the grain of the cloth more so you are sanding resin to get it smooth instead of getting into the cloth.

You will never get the tank off the plug if you cut it vertically. To get this tank off the plug, I would cut it horizontal on the side where the wing meets it and across the front only as far as the rounded area. From there you will be able to get water in it to melt the PVA and pop it off. Sliding a very thin ruler or some metal object into the cut line will help the water get to the PVA.

Be sure you have the plug well prepared for the glassing. I use "Meguiar's" #8 maximum mold release wax. I apply a coat, let it dry, polish it off, and then add two more the same way. I then apply a coat of "PVA Mold Release" which is a water soluble liquid mold release.

This PVA is a MUST DO. I assure you that the mold release wax alone on this green plug will not be enough. It takes three or four glassing on a plug or a mold to actually get it cured enough so wax will be enough.

Also I am assuming this is primer I see on your plug. I hope it under your glass. I actually tried to paint a plug once thinking it would make it real smooth. It was a disaster. When this resin cures like any resin, it generates heat. This heat melted the paint into the PVA and I just about destroyed the plug getting the glassed fuselage off of it. I figure it would do the same to primer.

Yes you are definitely going to have some overlap area on that nose. I would start my sanding there. Probably using 50 grit paper to cut it and then finishing it off with a smoother grit. If I am not happy with the finish on this nose, I would apply a coat of thin CA to again seal the cloth and finish it off with some 150 grit.

Remember the strength is in the whole. I am betting you will find some small holes in the glass of your finished tanks especially in the nose area. Simply back these holes up with a piece of wax paper and fill them with baking soda and thin CA. You can do this before you seam it.

Being this is just a wing tank, I would just seam it using thin CA. Once I have it glued together. I would try poring some resin through the hole in the back of your tank along the seams.

All this sounds sort of complicated. It actually isn't once you have all the right products and start the job.
Old 02-12-2016, 04:17 PM
  #73  
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Sounds good. I have some good mold release wax and the PVA. I did however use lacquer primer filler over the epoxy.. I guess I should give it another coat of epoxy to seal off the primer. Thanks for your help. I will keep you posted.

Dean.
Old 02-13-2016, 04:04 PM
  #74  
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Well hello Dean....guess great minds think alike....OR...like Tomcats.
It is good to see someone doing a right way F-14. I have wanted a F-14 for years but the price they wanted was just too much for me. So...I solved the problem and went to the "darkside"

I bought the Freewing F-14...........is a blast to fly but I sure wish I had your talents Mr. Miller...you truly are one of a kind and I am subbed to this thread.

It is a shame about the Iron Bay bunch........I have a Byron Sabre which is sitting with no wings because IB is out of business...sorry to see your designs go to waste....can't figure some people out. Would love to own an Miller F-4..........talked many bombs runs in the nam with the F-4.
Old 02-13-2016, 04:44 PM
  #75  
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Great build George! I grew up reading about all your adventures in the latest magazines dreaming that I would have one of your kits someday but as time passes so do all the glorious kits! I've stewed over buying these plans several times and its great to see the master tackle this! Carry on!

Max1965 you can get your F-86 wings here! http://eurekaaircraft.com/foamwings/wing-f.htm look under F.

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