Spawn2300

Hello fourm,

I am a total newbie to RC planes and am wondering if I made a mistake or not. I bought a A-10 , twin ducted fan( 370's) in a RTf configuration for 95 dollars. the site said it retails for 295. dollars. basically I am wondering if this will be a good/ fun plane for a beginner, Here i the link [link=http://www.nitroplanes.com/new204chathi.html]Nitro planes A-10[/link] could anyone let me know if this we be a good trainer, fun to fly, can it be upgraded- if so what are your recommendations. etc. Thanks

Mike

AJ1202

Mike I hate to break the news to you, BUT I think you will be hard pressed to get it to fly.
I know someone that just bought one and can't get it to fly at all, it is very underpowered
Also the A-10 is not exactly a good trainer, in most cases unless you upgrade it to brushless from the git go it is a plane that has to be flown, not just guided along. The A-10 when set up right is a nice flying plane but I don't feel it's a good first plane
I would say put it on the shelf, get something else to learn with then break it out when you have some sticktime and a better feel for flying.

cobrajocky

Hey Mike,

Don't listen to the "know it all's", there are too many of them with too few credentials to back their blustering. My son and I bought two of these Guanli made ARF A-10's at the first of the year when Nitro first got these newer versions (they sold out almost immediately). We both mostly fly 'lectric and gas Heli's with some intermediate fixed wing gas prop experience. We wanted to take a lick at ducted-fan electric flying. These Guanli's are actually better than the GWS planes that they copied from, but these have 6 blade fans and slightly more powerful brush-motors; it's the 6 blades that make the big difference over the 3 blade GWS A-10's.

While these aren't barn burners, they are a pretty decent flyer (sorry AJ1202 - try first hand experience before you bloviate). Hand launch the first few times into a slight breeze, and take off into a 10 -15 mph wind from the ground to get up fast. Yes, it isn't for a beginner, try a simple high-wing like a piper cub, 3 channel (rudder, elevators, throttle) first.

skyhawknut

My Feedback: (3)

Wow - talk about people going on about things they don't know about.

I don't recommend any jet as a first rc plane. Get an E-starter or slow stick and a good name brand radio. Otherwise your just throwing away your money.

Spawn2300

Hello, I received my plane 2 day ago and i was impressed- for the total of 107 dollars i think i paid-- i got a complete outfit- - the plane, controller, electronics etc. - i did not think much of the first guys post once i started to assemble the A-10 and powered it up -it 's prety cool -- and has enough power to keep me going for a while--- - while maybe not great for the average beginner and not powerful enough for a expert , it was great starter plane for me -- i can see a lot of kids speak in thee forums without knowing what there talking about. thank for the honest reply

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

I received mine too just a few days ago. I'm putting it together and it is not bad, as I first read about Guanli.
- Tx/Rx - I did not try the range but it works very well and feels good on sticks. I will replace the radio with Futaba 8US as I don't want to fly on 27Mhz.
- Servos are not anything fancy, but they work well, good centering and not much of slack. The only strange thing was that the servo's case screws were not tightened. I fixed that so they will stay.
- ESC is quite bulky, but it can survive a lot. Two FETS B414 (I think they are rated 110A each) should do the job. BEC is 2940 (low drop voltage regulator) that is rated 1.25 (3.5A max) with bigger than standard voltage regulator case (this one is TO-263-3) is more than enough for the radio power. Just do not put more than 3s Lipo on it, or it may get to hot.
- EDF unit is 55 size, 6-blades black fan. At 8.4V one unit takes 8.5A - this is powered from fresh charged battery pack included in the box (8x650mAh NiMh). I'm not sure how this battery would hold powering two EDFs. 16A seems quite high for these little cells. I did not measure thrust.
- All foam parts almost fit perfect. There is just a little filing on the fuselage halves joint, in order to fit wing and horizontal stab.
- The landing gear wire is very soft. It is made of soft steel, not a piano wire. I had to redo the nose wheel wire as it was to tight between two pllywood plates. I will replace the main gear wire too with bent out of piano wire.

So far this plane is hoing together very easy. And if you want to fly 27Mhz, everything is included except 8 AA batteries for TX. For the price I am impressed.

cyclops2

Do not be suprised if the plane is a FAST ground runner. 2... 375 motors are going to pull amps. inside of the 55's. So what should happen is, the NEW & not fully cycled battery pack will collapse to about 4 volts. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT hand launch this plane !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ground takeoffs only for the first 10 flight attempts.
650 mahr cells are wimpy. Ducted fans EAT power compared to a propellor.

No harm if it is low on power.

I wish you good luck.

I have 2 GWS A-10's.......1 has 144 watts into the 2 Hyperion brushless motors driving 2 GWS EDF 40 fans. 12 oz of thrust on 12 volts @ 12 amps. Flys very nice scale in calm days. Weighs 15 0z.

Other one has a nice prop in the nose and goes vertical. Weighs 15 oz.

Rich

Spawn2300

Hello RysiuM , you seem to have a pretty good understanding of the engines and battery packs etc. Could you give me some advice on what i should get as far a engines and battery's and a speed controller to modify this plane. I recently became a dad and my girlfriend is not working ( raising our child) so I'm going to have to be... well I can't buy new toys like i like right now so I'm thinking if i upgrade the A-10 it will keep me busy for a while and I love the size of the plane. any suggestions or links on what engine and EDF''s work with what batteries and speed controllers would be helpful.

Thanks in advance!

Mike

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

My understanding is related to prop-type power. With DF units I have had only bad experience. That darn thing never worked for me. The fan is spinning, making a lot of noise, motor gets hot, taks a lot of current but thrust is minimal. I don't know how that thing can even fly. So welcome to the club.

I'm hoping someone will tell me if this setup out of the box (maybe except battery) will work. I'm affraid, that 2 lipos will not have enough voltage to turn fans fast enough. Is it correct? I believe that on fully charged 2s 2100mAh thy will stay around 7.5V gibing about 7.5A to each motor. So it is 110W for the plane. Will it do the job?

I'm sure that loading 3s LiPo will kill these little motors in a matter of minutes. So how high on voltage and current can I go? Maybe 3s A123 will work?

As you see I have more questions than answeres, but there are guys on this forum who know that stuff - let's them speak.

AGUSTIN HERNANDEZ

I have one and all that you said is true. AJ1202 VERY LOW ON POWER AND RADIO DON'T WORK . BUT PLANE IS VERY NICE LOOKING.

skyhawknut

My Feedback: (3)

You need at least an 8 cell pack of GP 2200's Your battery needs to supply the amps required to fly the plane. I know the GWS version with the 300 brushed motors either needs an 8 cell pack like above - or a 3 cell lipoly. They will not last very long at full power(on 3S), but should last a little while with throttle management. (at least the GWS motors will). After that - upgrade to brushless. I know there are a bunch (including mine) flying on the GWS 20 mm inrunner motors and they work very well.

If your going to stick with older batteries, you need at least 8 cells perferably in the sub-A catagory. You MAY get away with 8 AA's if they are of a larger capacity (700mah or more)

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

How much power do I need on brushless? What kind of numbers should I expect?

At BPHobbies.com I found Feigao 1308422S with Kv=4255 , that would run on 2s Lipo. The info [link=http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V219349&pid=U834468]on their site[/link] is that at 7.2V EDF 55 will take 7.8A (56W) with thrust 6.6oz each. Is it enough?

The other I found at the same place is [link=http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V219349&pid=B1848539]Feigao 1308415L [/link]. This motor has lower Kv = 3867 and max current = 16A so it should run on 3s. If it takes over 10A on this EDF the power would be high.

But before I start investing in BL setup I will run it on stock brushed motors on 3s as long as they last.

The plane is going together very easy - foam parts fit much much better than any other GWS I put together. The only complain I might have is, that the foam is very soft and easy to scratch.

The only modification I did was redesigning stearing of the front wheel. The slotted servo horn came broken so I couldn't use it. And at the same time I did not like the original design, as it was limiting the servo movement to about half of the possible travel. Instead of describing what I did, I show picture - it explains everything.

Fresnojay76

Ok for those interested in a brushless upgrade I can offer some ideas and directions to go.

1. 20mm diameter motor will be your best bet for power and size.

2. You will need 2 ESC's or 1 for each motor rated around 18A-25A.

3. Brands or 20mm inrunners would be GWS, E-flite Park 370 or 400 series, Hacker, Himaxx 2015 or 2025 series. The E-flite park 370 = Himaxx 2015, E-flite Park 400 = Himaxx 2025. Hacker has motors in same ranges but I dont know the numbers off hand.

4. The motor Kv rating should be in the 3600Kv to 4200Kv range.

5. Battery would be a 3s 2200mah range pack with a "C" rating of at least 20C.

Now these are just suggestions and I am NOT claiming to know it all but do have some experience in EDF. I have had in the past some EDF planes in the 55mm fan size and these were the motors I was looking at. I have however had the E-flite Park 400 4200Kv motor and has been very reliable when run with a heatsink on it. I would recommend running any brushless motor with a heatsink when you can do so. They may not need it but wouldn't hurt and if anything extend the life of the motor. Air flow is critial to the ESC's in EDF applications as the Amp draw on EDF's tend to be rather high in some cases. Again I am NOT playing a know it all just throwing out bits of info I have learned off of here and RCG to help others. I have attatched a pic of my current pride and joy just to show I do actually have some experience from which I offer.

Jason

[img][/img]

cyclops2

For what I use.
2 Hyperion Y12L series 5800 KV on 12 volts @ a total of 12 to 13 amps. They wind so high that I know they are really not running quiter. They just sound quiter as I can not hear the higher pitchs as well.
I am using Black & Decker PVX tool packs that I cut apart and made into a 4 cell pack of 1200 mah @ 12.6 volts. 2 GWS 15 amp ESC's added 16" to ALL the motor leads.
Had to CAREFULLY glue the plastic rotors on. They fly off without it.
PM me, as the glue DOES go into the motor bearings if not done right.

Now a nice scale flying plane.
15 oz. is because I only used the white foam parts of the kit.
NO solid wood or plastic parts. No landing gear.

Rich

cobrajocky

Better LEARN how to READ, 2-bit.

I didn't recommend ANY jet (the A-10 is a ducted fan anyway Mr. X-spert), please quote where I DID. The reply was to the statement that the Guanli A-10 was a piece of junk, which it isn't, verified by the other postees; and to give the guy a couple tips experienced when he is ready to fly it. Next time you toss in your 2-bits, make sure you can actually read what's stated, otherwise it isn't even worth 2 Canadian cents.

(in response to skyhawknut ".... degrade, insult or embarrass someone in your post.")[>:]

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

I just noticed that. GP2200 weights 52g per cell. So you are saying to put over 400 grams into the plane? That's about the weight of the entire plane alone. A simple way to turn it into flying brick.

Provided batteries weight 109g. Two cells LiPo 2500mAh is the same. The plane balances perfect with the original battery pack in the nose.

With stock motor I would rather use there 2s 2500 Lipo or 3 cells of 2000 LiPo but then I will have to move the battery back a little.

cobrajocky

We (son and I) hadn't seen a need to replace the wire landing gear so far in more than a couple dozen flights (some with hard landings - but still "three point" ... or less), but now that you've mentioned it, I'm going to watch our two plane's gears.

Do you (or anyone familiar with the Guanli A-10) know what type of Styrofoam these are actually made from? It doesn't appear to be plain Styro, so could it be EPP foam or Polystyrene, or what?

The glue supplied with the Guanli A-10 was terrible, what types (brands) of glues work best for construction, and then also repair (cracks or holes)??

Thanks

AJ1202

Webster I think you misenturpeted my original responce to Mike

First of all I never indicated the plane in question is a piece of junk nor did I indicate he made a bad purchase

I mearly pointed out a FACT, that it is underpowered and as a TOTAL newby he may find it difficult to fly.
It is a known fact that most of your RTF planes, no matter who makes them are marginal on power, doesn't nessasarily make them bad, just not fair to an unsuspecting newby that thinks it will be easy to fly

These threads are used for information to be shared and for others that have some experience to offer their insight

Now as to me being a know it all that's just too funny

I fly everything from a E-Flight CX heli to 5lb 68" WS multi motor planes and I'm currently building a 25% Christen Eagle so I think I have some first hand experience to offer
not some kid spouting off and not having a clue what I'm talking about

My only intention with my responce was to prevent a newby from getting discouraged and giving up on RC flight because he tryed to start with something over his head, hence my suggestion to put it on a shelf and wait to try to fly it untill he had gotton some stick time under his belt.
That way he would have enough experience to handle having to actualy fly the plane

As to your question about glues, foam safe CA is a good glue but can be expencive , I like use GWS glue and 5 min epox on most builds. You have to be sparing with the 5 min as it can begin to add weight fast. On the UPOR or GWS glues you have to use them like contact cement, glue it put the parts together then pull them apart and let it dry, then put them back together and hold tight for a min. then it will full cure in a couple hours

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

The foam is weired. It is very soft but it is not EPP.

I did not even open the package. I know GWS glue and I suspected the same stuff. I use UHU Styrofoam Glue. Thin use thin layer, let it dry and then press parts together. It holds very well and sets fast. GWS glue never worked that way.

For filling cracks I would use Polyurethane Gorilla Glue. The one that cures when mixed with water and expands making a foam. t works for GWS planes (I used GWS warbirds for combat) so it should work for this plane too.


I just finished my A-10, when weather is good I will try it. I packed 2s LiPo 2500mAh and it balances well (I removed the plywood battery holder from the nose to fit my LiPo). Each motor takes 7.2A from this voltage. If it is not enough I have 3s 1650mAh Apoge and 3s 2100mAh Thunder Pro. The last one will need some weight on the tail as the plane is to much nose heavy.

The one benefit from modifying the stearing is that now I can turn the front wheel for making a tight turn around the wingtip. Looks cool on taxi.

And the last thing. Decals are much better thinner and easier to put than I got from GWS for my warbirds. I don't know how it flies yet, but from teh building the plane I see the quality is much better than any GWS. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against GWS but Guanli one goes in easier.

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

I just weighted mine. It has everything stock except modified front steering (may wight 1 g more than stock), Hitec Electron Rx which is a few grams lighter than the stock 27MHz and the 2s 2500 LiPo battery that weights 2 grams more that the stock 8x650NiMh. AUW is 21 oz (600g) [X(]
So it looks like the published weight of 16oz was copied from GWS documents, but the GUANLI plane gained 4oz somewhere (maybe motors are heavier).

cobrajocky

Bought a tube of standard Gorilla Glue at Home Depot and used to re-glue a very loose tail fin on the Guanli A-10 (again, their glue is really terrible to use and very weak) and the Gorilla Glue worked great. Though it "expanded" quite a bit more than I expected.

Once hardened, can it be filed or sanded to reduce size or shape?

Have you been able to find a higher Mah battery that's the same size and weight that will still fit in the nose little orig battery cubby-hole in the Guanli A-10? The orig battery is another "weak" factor in this model. We get maybe 10 - 12 minutes flight time.

Also, we're a bit new to Styrofoam in RC since we've always been mostly Heli's in the last few years (there are no Styro Heli's we've ever seen), or wood based RC planes in the past; so a question is, what paints - partiucularly sprays - are safe to use on Styro without turning it to a shapeless blob?

Thanks for the info, RysiuM!

Best to you,
Web

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

The one I'm buying is in bottles. [link=http://www.gorillaglue.com/home/gorilla-glue/product-detail.aspx]http://www.gorillaglue.com/home/gorilla-glue/product-detail.aspx[/link]
You can cut it with knife, sand it or file it. However the surface will not be smooth - you will break a bubbles. You can fill these bubbles with balsa filler.

What I did I just removed the plywood battery holder and this way the whole nose I can use for battery. It fits 3s Thunder Pro 2100 or 3s Duralite Silver 2500. I did not even bother to use 8x650 NiMh.


What? 10 minutes of 650mAh when each fan takes 8A? It doesn't sound right. I am surprised it can fly with this battery. There is no NiMh that can do 30C. I'm thinking the plane may not fly at all with 2s LiPo - 3s is quite hard on 370 motors (12A it is a lot).

I'm reaserching what kind of BL power would work. So far the best I matched is GP Ammo In-runner 20-40-4040 powered by 2s 2500mAh. If my calculations are right it should give 450g thrust (total from both units) and load the battery with 28A. Tower has good prices for these little motors. I need to get confirmation of my calculations before I buy them tho.

Either polyurethane paint (I saw some in craft store) or latex. These are safest for the foam. What I do is I paint styro with latex and on the top clear layer of polyurethane. Polyurethane paint is hard protects styro from denting and easy to wash with dump cloth.

Here is my GWS DC3 painted that way.

cobrajocky

RysiuM,

Oops, my bad .. my son says the flight time is only about 4 - 5 minutes when we carefully peak the stock battery (not using the stock charger, obviously). It is a slow flyer with the stock battery, so we're also thinking about upgrading to Brushless motors and better matching battery, with a tight budget in mind. Only wondering how we can get into the stock styro motor ducts since they are now one piece and already glued on the fuselage? Got any ideas?

Please post here what you finally do for motors and batteries.

Thanks for the tips on the paint, too. Gorgeous DC 3!

Web.

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

To replace motors you don't need to open the duct. The procedure is following:

1. remove the screw from the front of the fan
2. Pull the fan out of the shaft adapter - do not bend any fins on fan and don't break the motor housing. The easiest way is to use the hole, where the screw was as a support for some tool that would work like a bearing puller. Grab the fan by the cone, never by fins.
3. remove the set screw on the side on the adapter on the shaft and remove adapter from the motor shaft. This may be the most difficult task and some people did not bother and just break the shaft then remove the adapter.
4. From the front you will see two screws securing the motor to the duct housing. remove them and pull the motor from the back of the duct. Don't bother with wires - just cut them off.

Assembling new motor into the fan is the same process in reverse order. This is 64 fan but design is exactly teh same as 55

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

I just fixed some rig to measure the static thrust the plane have. I mean this is not just EDF thrust but entire power unit mounted in the plane. Twin. This is everything stock (motors, EDF and ESC). Only battery pack and Rx (Hitec Electron) is replaced.

With 3s LiPo 2100mAh (Thunder Power) at about 20A. total power gives 284g static thrust = it is about 10oz, means 5oz each EDF unit

With 3s Lio 1570mAh (Apoge) it is the same power as above.

With 2a LiPo 2500mah (Duralite Silver) at about 12.5A. total power is 200g static thrust = it is about 7oz, means 3.5oz drom each unit.

Is any way this thing can fly on 2s LiPo?