DNCrosby

So I finally got my Nights up and running, and glued the model together (I was holding off due to wire routing, I wanted options)

Here's the Result at Night ! Don't get too excited I'm not crazy enough to fly in the dark

IN HD 720p No less
http://www.vimeo.com/2284618

Or go to the link on my website for further information, and to watch it in standard def.
http://www.derekcrosby.com/index.php...scat&Itemid=58

Sam77

Ok, the new Hyperion motor just arrived this afternoon. I fired it up in with the rotor on and in the housing and it has WAY more pep than the stock motor. I need to get a bit of schooling in how many amps this thing is going to pull and make sure my 25A ESC will handle it.

However, damn - this thing runs sweet. I'll keep you posted as to what I need to change....

-Sam

topgun24

My Feedback: (25)

Alright Sam!! I am looking forward to seeing how she flys. I have 15 flights on my stock motor and I think she is dying as it started squeaking and loosing power on my last 2 flights.

WildBlueYawnder

OK. Am I seeing a problem here? The motor installed in the F-16 is rated at a max of 15 Amps per the specs listed above. My E-Flite power meter showed 22 amps and I've seen others at 26+.

Could this be why motors aren't lasting very long?

Sam77

Could be. I noticed I had a lot of play in the shaft of my motor. I could wiggle it in and out of the motor can about 1/8th of an inch. I was thinking I smoked the bearings or something...


-Sam

Rick_H

Next week it will be a month since the motor on my F-16 burnt up on it's third flight. I have been patiently waiting for a resolution to this issue. I was hoping to hear something positive by now, HH should at lease email us with status update on this or post it here. Starting to think about contacting my CC company to find out my refund options on this purchase. I really like this plane but the last thing I need is another hanger queen.

Come on HH give us a status update on this problem. How are you going to take care of your customers on this one. You have a lemon don't alienate us over it.

Rick

Sam77

Ok, we just ran the Hyperion motor up bolted into the stock fan setup. Here's what we ended up with:

Hyperion HP-Y22L-5000 motor
Thunder Power Lite 11.1 V 2100 mAh battery
Spektrum AR6100E receiver
E-flite 25A Pro ESC

~355 W
33.7 A
10.1 V

So, I'm going to dig out the E-flite 40A ESC I have in my tool box, slap a Dean's plug on it, and stuff everything back into the jet. It should be a lot more reliable now. If the weather holds on Sunday, I'll give it a whirl.

-EDIT-
I'm not sure what the ESC is programmed for, as I've not tweaked it since I opened the package - so assume whatever is the stock programming for the 25A Pro ESC.

-Sam

kable21

Rick, After speeking to them on the phone a cuple of times they were noncooperative, it was like they didn't care and it was my problem. So I went to the hobby shop in town here where I got it Nice Twice to see what they could do and best thing he said was he could order the stock motor and if it keeps burning up he would keep sending it in, well that was last weekend and I still havnt herd of the motor coming in so I looked up on horizons website and the motor is on backorder hmm so once again I contacted horizon on that and they had no idea as to when they were going to get the motors they guy was just "guessing" sometime in december. So ive almost lost my patience with this crap aand I didn't spend a barrel of money to have just sit out on my table (like it has for the past 3 weeks). So I went ahead and got a custom motor to try and end this frustration.

And.... Sending them this fine letter about a week and a half ago with no reply given what so ever!

11/11/08


Horizon Hobby, Inc.
4105 Fieldstone Rd
Champaign, IL 61822


To Whom It May Concern:

With great excitement I recently purchased your e-flite F-16 ARF. All assembly instructions, servo materials, and equipment placement was followed exactly. Trims were adjusted for low rates and the model balanced one cm nose heavy to recommendations, using the suggested thunder power lipo battery. Today I took the plane to the flying field for its first flight, take-off was well, plane performed outstanding, had good attitude and performance most of the flight was at half and ¾ for a period of about seven minutes.

The flight was ended with a motor failure requiring a dead-stick landing. After ground inspection and motor test running it appears the motor has failed, with mechanical grinding and burning odor. Under the flight conditions this should have never occurred, especially on the maiden flight.

Following today’s incident I performed some online Inquiries through several r/c blog sites and it was confirmed by several other modelers that motor failures are common with this model.

The purpose for writing is to inquire if there is a remedy or replacement for the failure. The model is fully intact, successful first flight, but won’t fly again.

I have been an avid r/c pilot for many years. And I have enjoyed many of your products. I’m hoping you will stand behind this one.

Sincerely,
Kurt Able

You think they would of at least replyed to my message, I think I just may send them my junk motor, along with my customer evaluation!

Rick_H

Hello Kable21

I would try another motor but when mine burnt up it melted part of the DF unit so I sent the motor and DF unit in for repair. I will call them on Monday to see what is going on, depending on how I am treated will determine my course of action. I am sure my CC company will be more than willing to get involved in this if I ask them, it all depends on their customer service.

Rick

WildBlueYawnder

Tower Hobbies - been waiting three weeks for a new Seawind fuselage since the one I received was damaged. I've been told that I have to wait until the next shipment of fuselages come in before I can get a replacement and they can't take a fuselage out of a kit to send it to me because then they can't sell the kit. So by default any new customer that may potentially want to buy a Seawind is more important than a customer that has already bought one. They had the gall to send me an EMAIL customer survey to ask what I thought of their support BEFORE the issue was taken care of. I'm still waiting after numerous phone calls. I'm not impressed with their support. I sure won't be taking advantage of the $20 coupons they keep sending me via Email in the near future.

Hobby Lobby - ordered a TB-20 and waited 3 months for it to come in because the Chinese manufacturer had decided to reengineer the kit to fit it in a smaller box. The instructions no longer matched the kit when I got it. There were so many missing parts that they couldn't possibly have done a pre-manufacture "dry run" by checking the parts they were going to put in the kit and trying to assemble it. The ailerons wouldn't move because the wing end caps had been placed over them. It took an additional 6 weeks to get all of the parts to finish the plane. Hobby Lobby stood by the plane and got me all of the parts even though it took a while. Wanted to order their A-7 Corsair this week, credit card in hand and started reading the threads and found they have as bad or worse of an issue than the F-16 with the motors burning up and ESC failures. Lots of complaints about the junk servos in the ARF's, etc. I didn't order the A-7 by the way.

Horizon - T-28 a blast and no issues. Still waiting on F-16 motor resolution. On my Parkzone Corsair the landing gear mount in the wing split down the middle on the first landing. I'm sure that isn't covered on warranty but I didn't ask I just ordered a replacement mount (backorder). I've been hand launching and flying it with the provided wing skids and actually like it better as the ground handling with the gear was kind of wild. T-34 had some issues and I had to wait for resolution but it got taken care of. SuperAirliner a super blast and no issues. Stryker F27-C a super blast but after 4 flights found the motor shaft was bent (props were breaking mid air every flight due to the wobble). Don't know how the shaft got bent since it's never been crashed, just belly landed. Ordered a new motor from Horizon and the new motor has different mounting hole locations than the old motor so the motor mount needs reamed out (broke the mount trying to do it so ordered a new mount).

In short - ALL of the hobby suppliers have issues, especially with new models. At least Horizon says they are working on the F-16 issue and they participate in these forums (as does Jason from Hobby Lobby). I have to appreciate the companies that do participate and listen to our comments and complaints. Sure we get frustrated and whine but in the long run I have to believe it will work out for the best in the F-16 case too. If the forums are used simply to complain and threaten then eventually the manufacturers will quit participating (I would). I hope that doesn't happen.

Dave Eichstedt says he's working on the issue and I believe he is. I'm pretty sure he's got a lot of other things to worry about and work on too. Horizon does have a lot of products. I'll be patient until the F-16 issue is resolved (not that I won't be steaming while I'm waiting too). It's in Horizon Hobbys best interests to get the motor issue fixed, especially now that the F-16 is getting some press like in this months "Fly RC" magazine with pictures of it at the NEAT Fair and in the product announcement section of the issue.

Here's hoping the resolution comes sooner rather than later! For now I'm not going to fly mine again until the issue is resolved. I don't want risk crashing it due to a motor failure and then find out the only thing that will be replaced is the motor.

But then that brings up a question for Dave. When the issue is resolved will motors be replaced if we ask or do we have to run the motor to failure before it will be replaced?

wtmcgehee

Okay, I have been out of the loop for alittle bit. What is going on with the motors. I am still waiting for mine from Horizon. Are they discontinuing that motor and sending out a new one or giving us the same motor to blow up again?

WildBlueYawnder

We haven't heard anything since Dave Eichstedt said Horizon is working on the issue and they have a lot of testing to do. That was on Nov 14th.

Rick_H

WildBlueYawnder

Your right, I am just frustrated seeing this nice looking plane that I can't fly then reading on here how customer service has been treating people on this issue. I have always had good luck with them and heard people compliment them on their customer service. I don't understand why they are acting differently on this issue? It would be nice if when you call in they inform you that they are aware of the issue and and working on a solution instead of being told you are the only one with this issue. :-(

Dave Eichstedt give us an update on this?

Rick

DNCrosby

Well I can't say my maiden today went without incident, but It didn't burn up And it didn't burn up the motor... I think the tests are correct, in that the speed control used is poorly setup and underrated for the Amps pulled... Not to say that I have all or even any of the answers, but I went with a 35A Castle Creations Speed Controller and have yet to have issues, taxing or flying. The only concern I have is the CG issue with the battery, and the fact that it flies like a brick, it just doesn't want to climb like a "Jet" should...but I'm hoping to iron out both issues soon... for now here's my maiden.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGMqiUGno6U]F16 400 DF Maiden[/link]

And the same thing now in HD

[link=http://www.vimeo.com/2342974]F16 400 DF Maiden in (HD)[/link]

Something disturbing I did notice, after setting the DX7 up with the help of others here, I tried to trim out my F16 during my maiden flight, but could not do so successfully, after a check on the ground I figured out that the Trim on my DX7 only trim the Left Elevator, and leaves the right one alone... [:-] The Ailerons on the other hand also setup with two channels, work on trim as indicated... is that a bug in the radio ? If so how do I get it fixed ???

wtmcgehee

With the DX7 for Ail you are using wing type setup but for the ele you are using mixing. Since you are using mixing you have to trim each servo separatly. You are most likley using ele and gear right? what you will have to do in flight is go to subtrim and have gear ready to trim wile adjusting the ele trim. If you don't want to do this you need to by a Y harness with the servo reverse thing on it.

bearcatf8

My Feedback: (4)

As many of us that has had trouble with the plane ,looks like HH would say hey guys send us your planes and we'll credit you the price on something else that we sell and get this problem solved. I sure everyone here that has had trouble with their F-16 would do this !!! SPEAK UP Horizon !

Rick_H

DNCrosby

If you read my posts you will see that I also used the 35A Castle Creations Speed Controller and it lasted until the third flight. Good Luck with yours.

Now as for the DX7 configuration.

Wing Type: Flaperon ON
V-Tail OFF

D/R Switch Sel: COM ELEV

Travel Adjust: GEAR +0% -0%

Reversing SW: ELEV = Norm
Gear = REV

PROG.MIX6 (note use any mix, I choose 6)
ELEV->GEAR ON
RATE: +100%
+100%
SW:ON
OFFSET: 0

These settings will allow the Elevator trim to adjust both Elevators at the same time.

Rick

DNCrosby

Sorry I wasn't insinuating that the speed control was "THE" solution, and I haven't gotten 3 Flights under my belt... I was just saying that most people have used all E-Flite Electronics, and I, and obviously you have not, you've had issues, I have not... Until Horizon Pinpoints the issue we're all just guessing, but getting some statistics on who has what setup might help them pinpoint their own issues, and come out with a resolution.

Fortunately in an electric motor situation there are only 3 components, Motor, ESC, and Battery. But it could be a combo, like MotorX and BatteryX = Bad... There are of course other factors, like to many blades on the fan for that motor etc... but that comes back down to the motor.

Thanks for the tips on the DX-7 I will mess with that today...

bearcatf8

My Feedback: (4)

I may have said this earlier but I used the E-Flight 30 amp pro ESC and V2 battery withe the 6100 DSM receiver. The blades had tip rub that may have contributed to the motor slow down. that's when it started to be uncontrollable trying to make it back for a landing ,got into the sun and spun in. So I think I was using the right equipment with a good balance and good throws on the controls. I would like to try the BAe Hawk but now trying this thing I'm hesitant to do so. We're listening Horizon

WildBlueYawnder

Believe me Rick_H I feel your pain. I really liked my E-Flite SuperAirliner but it's not a grass field plane so I was limited in where I could fly it. After I got my F-16 which I can hand launch at my club I've become an EDF fanatic and I can't get enough of them. I immediately ordered the new E-Flite BAe Hawk and for a while anyway EDF's are probably all I'm going to buy.

I'm hoping the F-16 motor issue is resolved soon but I'm not going to hold my breath. It is the holiday season and with the normal delays in getting something out of China plus the time it's going to take to even decide what is going to be done I don't expect any resolution before year end. If it's sooner than that I'll be very happy. I realize that Horizon has to make business decisions too and come up with a solution that makes sense to us (hopefully) and to them.

I'm hoping the resolution comes sooner rather than later.

In the meantime I've seen some videos today on YouTube that are pretty neat. You'll probably like them too. Both of them show what the F-16 can do. One is of comparison flying with the Hobby-Lobby F-16 and the other just has some good examples of low level flight (inverted, etc). Both are very good videos.

Comparison with HL F-16 (note the guy is waiting on an ESC from HL because they are having EDF issues too). There is a Hobby-Lobby A-7 Corsair thread that sounds just like this F-16 thread with lots of excited modelers at the beginning of the thread and then reality as they get the plane and experience the issues. The Corsair thread is about 40 pages with 20 pages of complaints.

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhYg5R-uLpY[/link]

Nice low level flight and cool music.

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q46dj7EhmR4&feature=related[/link]

Hopefully I'll have my own video this week but it will be boring compared to these.

Sam77

This Sunday's flying was a BLAST. The Hyperion motor was a solid performer through 5 batteries without so much as a hiccup. My buddy was running a Hoffman Mighty Mite in his on 4S and also had a blast. I really love this airframe - just hate the fact I was sold Art-Tech with an E-flite sticker on it.

I have more photos to upload and some video to clean up. I'll post it when I'm done.

Any thoughts on re-enforcing the inlet lip? Mine's taken a beating, but it was mostly from the first couple of flights before I had a feel for how it'd land.

-Sam

WildBlueYawnder

Sam77 - Please post some details of how you did the mod. The exact motor model. What you had to change. Are you still running 3 cell lipo, etc? What size lipo are you using? What ESC are you using? What settings for the ESC? 2-pole, 4-pole, etc. How long are your flights? Did you use the same fan? Does the motor bolt to the fan? I've heard some talk of cutting the plug down. What does that mean (length or diameter)? Any pictures you may have showing the mod process. I would really appreciate it. I'm a long time flyer and not a builder so I need help. That's why I love the ARF's!

I looked at the hyperion 5000kv motor and they have a long and short version. I assume you used the long? Where did you buy your motor? Did you have any challenges removing the old motor?

Did the flight characteristics change? More speed? Any changes to the control throws required?

Thank you in advance.

topgun24

My Feedback: (25)

I reinforced the inlet with flexable thin carbon fiber and foam safe zap. Glue it to the plastic bottom of the inlet and about 3 to 4 inches onto the foam. Use 2 pieces, 1 on each side of the nose wheel slot. Be sure to sand paint if any left off the plastic inlet lip. After the carbon fiber is zapped down coat the strip with the zap and hit with kicker which stops it from flexing. My inlet is holding up perfect. I also put a piece on each of the 2 fins on the bottom to keep them from breaking, works great!

Sam77

Here's my setup:

Hyperion HP-Y22L-5000 motor ( http://www.allerc.com/product_info.p...oducts_id=1828 )
Thunder Power Lite 11.1 V 2100 mAh battery (also running FlightPower EVOLite 3s 2100 mAh packs)
Spektrum AR6100E receiver
HS-55 servos x 4
E-flite 40A ESC ( http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...rodID=EFLA312B ) set for LiPo sensing and the Brake to OFF. I've not programmed much else, as I don't think there's much else to program.

Here's what I was pulling on the amp meter:
~355 W
33.7 A
10.1 V

The only thing I changed was getting rid of the Art-Tech motor. The above-mentioned Hyperion motor bolts right into the stock housing once you remove the aluminum spacer ring from it. I used the four screws that the motor came with to mount it in the housing. The stock fan bolted right onto the shaft without any modification. I'm getting about 6 minute flights, but I'm guessing I could get longer if I was a little more easy on the throttle (I'm new too, so I tend to fly a bit faster).

Cutting out the stock fan was easy, but I don't have photos of that part. Maybe someone else does - but there's a spot on the belly to make the cut and it results in a nice hatch. Here's a photo up the tailpipe showing the new motor installed.

Hope that helps!!

WildBlueYawnder

Thank you. The photo didn't show up though.