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AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Old 06-26-2010, 06:27 PM
  #26  
bingo22
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Greg
What sizes are the main and nose gear wheels.
Thanks
Frank
Old 06-27-2010, 05:25 PM
  #27  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Hi Frank,

All three rubber tires are the same size at 2-3/8" in diameter. The rubber is very firm with a metal wheel and a brass center.

I see that you are in Naples, FL. What an awesome place, but I didn't know you had any R/C fields there and it is probably too hot for flying this time of year. Are there any clubs around?

In the NorthEast, it's the flying season and I just came back from an awesome weekend flying event with Team Futaba's, Dan Landis, and Team JR's, Devin McGrath. Too bad the Rebel wasn't finished! I'll get back to building it this week.
Old 06-28-2010, 12:49 PM
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Thanks Greg
I received my Rebel from Richard last week, did not get his landing gear, I have a set of Robarts on hand that I’m trying to use, will need to remove some wood to mount, but looks like it will work, and maybe with a 2.5 wheel.
Yes their is a big club here, and the jets come over from Miami http://cmac1.org

Looking forward to watching your build, I have cut the aft part of the canopy from the fuselage and attached it to the forward main canopy. Removed the bulk head to make a larger radio and battery compartment, and made a new canopy seal in the rear . The rest, I’m following you lead.
\Frank
Old 06-28-2010, 06:16 PM
  #29  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Frank,

Thanks for the link to your club in Naples. It looks like a great field! I got a kick out of the photos from your event in February where some folks had short sleeve shirts on. Here is what I look like when I fly in February in Rochester, NY. [link=http://rcuvideos.s3.amazonaws.com/rcuvideos/magazine/reviews/1077/FlyFlyBAeHawk2.wmv]FlyFly BAe Hawk EDF[/link]

What are you using for your power system?

Regards.
Old 07-01-2010, 07:07 PM
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

120mm RC Lander, Castle 85
Old 07-03-2010, 08:12 AM
  #31  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

The leading edge slats were an interesting challenge as I had never seen them before. The idea is that they work similar to flaps in that they swing from neutral down (about 45 degrees) to change the wing shape. By combining the leading edge slats with ailerons acting as spoilerons, you can obtain either high-alpha or an under-cambered wing for slow flight.

The kit did not contain hinges for the leading edge slats so I decided to use some Robart #309 Super Hinge Point hinges I had left over from a previous giant scale project. These pin hinges are very strong and much larger than the ones supplied for the ailerons.

I decided on using 4 pin hinges per leading edge slat. Be careful not to drill too far into the slats as you can easily poke through the other side. The hole for the pin hinge closest the wing chord did not have any wood behind it so you need to make sure it gets properly glued to the top surface edge where the wood does exist.

I first glued the pin hinges to the leading edge slat using V-poxy and let them dry overnight. You can then more easily adjust the hole spacing on the wing to reduce pressure from spacing issues without having the pin hinges spin sideways. I used a round file for this procedure. Once satisfied with the fit, I coated the pin hinge centers with petroleum jelly before gluing the slat in place.

To obtain a proper 45 degree swing, you need to have a slight gap between the slat and wing. I used some thin sticky-back foam stripping to obtain an even gap. I used a glue gun and V-poxy from BVM Jets with a short mixing nozzle so I could inject the glue into the holes. I also smeared glue around the pins before inserting them into the holes. This provided strong glue joints, even on the one hole without surrounding wood.

Once dried, the slat could properly swing down from neutral to about 45 degrees. Further into the assembly, I will likely seal the gap on the top side of the wing with some clear 3M covering like that used on RVs.
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:02 AM
  #32  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

After looking at the servo mount for the leading edge slat, I decided some design changes were needed. The factory mount was 45 degrees from the control surface instead of the desired 90 degrees so I mounted the servo on some balsa blocks which were then glued to the sheeting. The sheeting is quite thick and strong since it looked like it had been coated with epoxy at the factory. The balsa blocks could be cut and broken away if the servo ever needed to be replaced. I positioned the servo arm with a live receiver to be a 45 degree angle toward the leading edge slat. In this manner, the servo arm could swing up to 90 degrees, if needed.

The supplied metal control horns were neat but they lacked strength unless surrounded by epoxy as in my aileron linkage installation. Further, I knew that there was no wood behind the top of the half-circle area in the leading edge slat where the control horn needed to be mounted. I decided to use a spare DS821 servo arm and wedge it into place with a small hardwood slat. By filling the hole with V-poxy first, and then coating the hidden portion of the servo arm and hardwood slat, it created a strong control horn anchored exactly where I wanted it for the best torque and resolution to swing the leading edge slat. The hidden end of the plastic control horn was also lightly sanded to allow better adhesion to the V-poxy.

The supplied control rod, linkage, and keepers were used to complete the leading edge slat control. Locktite was used on the metal clevis and nut so a secure wobble-free linkage. After installing the cover plate, my first wing was complete.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:43 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Before connecting the right boom to the right wing, I extended the servo wires with JR Sport 24" Servo Extensions. Note the jog in the wires through the boom as it enters the fuselage.

Unlike the excellent glue job on the fuselage, the booms needed extra glue added to both the retract section and the tail control section (not shown) in the rear. I used some BVM V-poxy around all the weak areas and also added a few blocks of hardwood between the existing frame and fiberglass skin for support.

A 3mm driver was used to tighten the bolts. I also added two washers to reduce the unthreaded part as shown before when connecting the booms to the fuselage.

The fit between the wing and boom was perfect!
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:27 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

I used the supplied hinges to mount the elevator. A Dremel tool made quick work for cutting the hinge slots in both the elevator and boom. Note the extra glue applied to the servo bays in the boom.

The three hinges were sanded on both sides, cut down in size on both ends, and the centers coated with petroleum jelly to keep the epoxy out.

I first glued the hinges to the elevator using V-poxy and allowed them to dry. It is important to rub the glue on the hinge and fill the entire slot with glue for a strong bond. After testing the fit and swing, I then glued the elevator to the boom. The result was an easy 45 degree swing in either direction.
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:18 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

I used the same technique for anchoring the control horn on the elevator that worked so well on the leading edge slat. The spare servo arm makes a strong control horn when locked in place with a plywood wedge and V-poxy.

The elevator servo mounted easily using the hardware supplied with the servo and I used the hardware supplied in the kit for the control linkage. The result was a good 40 degree swing in each direction.

Initially, I'll stick with my JR DS821 digital servos all around. They provide 88 oz-in @6v so they should work well in most areas. If the elevators or rudders a sluggish on 3D maneuvers, I can upgrade to a stronger servo later on after some test flights.
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:01 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

The large rudder uses a carbon rod to swivel around in a series of holes in the aft end of the boom. I decided to beef-up the area by using some 9/32" brass tubing. The carbon rod is close to 8/32" (1/4") but likely the metric equivalent. I glued the 9/32" tubing pieces in place (on both sides of the wood) while holding them straight with an 8/32" tube.

I used a larger control horn than is supplied with the DS821 servos. My guess is that they were from an old giant-scale project that used HS-5645MG servos. After drilling the control horn to size so it fit over the carbon rod snugly, I used thin CA to initially glue it into position. After the CA dried, I coated the area with V-poxy for a stronger hold.

The wheel collar in the photo is simply used for a washer/spacer to keep the rudder from coming up. Locktite was used on the supplied threaded rod and nut. The supplied rubber keeper was used on the clevis.

Since there was a little wobble in the rudder, I sanded the carbon rod down so that the 8/32" (1/4") brass tubing fit perfectly. This reduced the wobble to almost nothing. A sticky-back copper tape can also be used on the carbon rod to make it slightly larger diameter for the 9/32" tubing.

The rudder can only swing about 30 degrees in either direction, before hitting the fuselage or elevator, so I used the outer most hole on the control horn and the inner most hole on the servo arm for minimum gain. Even with the linkage gain reduced, I needed to reduce the servo travel to about 75%. The rudder control seemed effective so I will wait until test flying the Rebel before deciding if I need a stronger servo.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:53 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Hi Greg, one of the ideas I had behind the design of theverticalrudders was to also
have them double as anair-braketo slow the plane formaneuversor landings.
do you think this can be programmed in to the transmitter you will be using?
Thanks, Richard
Old 07-20-2010, 06:18 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Hi Richard,

I'm using a JR 9503 transmitter and 9-channel receiver so the rudders could be put on separate channels for the air brake feature.

That being said, I don't think it will be needed as I fly off grass and the Rebel wings are not only thick but can change their shape for slow landings.

So people can get a size comparison of the VERTIGO Rebel, I took a photo of the completed wing (less retract) next to the fuselage and a yard stick.

Regards.
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Old 07-24-2010, 02:57 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

One of the areas of assembly that concerned me was that the wing tubes needed to run through the exhaust duct. Most EDF enthusiasts cringe whenever anything perturbs the air in the exhaust...myself included. The wing tubes distribute the load from the wing to the boom to the fuselage. Since the landing gear is in the boom, they really needed to be single tubes that ran from one wing to the other. I had further concerns that the cone or fairing in the Lander 120mm DF would block my wing tube path through the exhaust ducting.

As it turned out, the cone only slightly blocked the tube path. I flattened the center of the wing tubes slightly in a vise so that the tube just sat in position on the metal cone. I use a 3/16" metal music wire from the opposite side of the fuselage to help me route the tube through. Once the tubes were in place, I used V-poxy to glue custom cut lengths of 5/16" carbon tubing inside the aluminum tubes for added strength. The carbon tubes ran from the outside of the aluminum tube all the way to the slightly flattened area in the center.

The exhaust duct is quite large so I will first try it "as is". If I want to clean up the duct after a few test flights, I may add some K&S [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXR857&P=7]Streamline Tubing[/link] around the wing tubes.

On the bottom of the boom, I decided to tape the hatch in place. This technique made for a simple, smooth finish.

Since the Rebel used plenty of digital servos, I needed a strong supply voltage like the Castle Creations [link=http://www.castlecreations.com/products/ccbec.html]CC BEC Pro[/link]. It can supply up to 20-amps peak current using just about any small LiPo pack. I like to use a small 3s LiPo around 1AH to feed the CC BEC Pro. I programmed mine for 6.0v.

With the right wing connected to the fuselage, I could play with all the control surfaces. I have the Leading Edge Slat connected to the flap system on my JR 9503 transmitter and a mix set up on the AUX2 switch for offsetting the aileron. In this manner, I can have just the LE Slat on three positions using the flap switch and the ailerons offset up, normal or offset down, on the three position AUX2 switch. It should be interesting.

I even fired up the RC Lander 120mm DF using a single 6s LiPo (instead of 12s). Everything seemed to run smooth so it was a good sanity check for the midway point.
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Old 07-24-2010, 03:21 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Greg,

did you find the stock wing tubes flexible ?
Old 07-24-2010, 03:31 PM
  #41  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Yes, the tubes were a bit flexible, but they may have worked fine as is. I was going to stiffen them up originally with wooden dowels glued inside but I had the right size 5/16" carbon tubing for a stronger and lighter solution.
Old 07-31-2010, 10:19 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

While I waited for my replacement retracts to arrive (details in next post), I decided to mount the electronics and determine a good LiPo pack size.

Since the two main LiPo packs needed to fit on either side of the nose wheel, I mounted the CC BEC Pro and 3-cell 800mAh Rx. LiPo pack up in the nose. The connections can be easily made to power the receiver and servos, and no On/Off switch is needed.

The CC BEC Pro has twin output leads that perfectly mate with my JR R921 receiver. I have used this combination on other projects and like the redundancy and extra current capability of this setup.

The JR R921 receiver and satellite receiver were mounted aft of the battery compartment. The air tank can still fit in its designated position or I can move it into the nose under the former that holds the Rx battery and CC BEC Pro, if needed for a CG adjustment.

The position of the receiver battery, CC BEC Pro, and receivers kept the main flight battery compartment clean for using larger packs. Further, the receivers were positioned away from the noise of the ESC and switching BEC.

My choice for battery packs was to use two Enerland 6s 4350mAh 30C packs in series for a 12s total. These 25oz packs can provide much more power than needed so they should run relatively cool. The down side is that they are on the large side for the battery compartment but still seem to fit. I would also replace the Dean's Ultra connectors with 6mm Gold bullet connectors that can handle up to 200 amps and do not need a harness to connect them in series. (25oz x 2 = 50oz or 3.1lbs)

I also tried some smaller 6s 3350mAh 30C packs which fit much better and can slide forward and aft a bit. While these 18oz packs can still provide the needed 80 amps at full throttle, my concern was with having shorter flights. (18oz x 2 = 36oz or 2.25lbs)

It looks like an ideal pack size may be around 3800mAh-4000mAh. Since I do not know how the Rebel will balance, once finished, I will have to revisit my pack choices then.
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:02 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

I discovered a compatibility issue with the Rebel struts and the air up / air down retracts. One of the two air fittings would hit the strut when it was installed properly. The cylinder could not be turned around because the other fitting would hit the strut. Fortunately, the same manufacturer makes an air up / spring down version of the retract that works perfectly. So when ordering the VERTIGO Rebel Retracts, Struts, Jet Wheels, and 127mm Fan Combo, be sure to get the air up / spring down retracts. The retracts, struts, and wheels are very good quality.

I replaced my air up / air down retract in the nose and installed my right boom retract. When installing the retracts, I also installed the tubing with enough length to easily reach the cockpit area.

Since I also needed a one-way air valve and a standard Robart fill valve set, I ordered the [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXJZE8]Robart 510 Series Economy Air Control Kit[/link] from Tower Hobbies. My assumption is that the air up / spring down retract set will come with a one-way valve.
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:01 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Greg,
It looks like it's setup for doors.. Do any come with it at all?

Rob
Old 08-04-2010, 09:48 PM
  #45  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

I think the lips on those inlets need some help! See this post from Stu at Stumax concerning his Feibo F5E conversion:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=435

Old 08-05-2010, 08:42 AM
  #46  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Rob,

Yes, the doors (or covers) are included and can be seen in post #6. I will likely not use them as doors but make a cutout in them for the wheel and strut to swing out. It will act as a partial cover to create a smaller opening in the boom.

Cheers!

chalmrast,

Thanks for the link and for pointing out any area of concern. I do not consider any of my ducting finished and plan to save it as one of the last steps. The intake duct is a single molded composite piece that is quite thick so it should not implode. I do like Stu's idea of rounding the lip for better air flow.

Regards.
Old 08-24-2010, 10:07 AM
  #47  
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Any updates?
Bob

Old 08-24-2010, 05:23 PM
  #48  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Hi Bob,

I took the Rebel to a local R/C show last weekend so my pilots and friends could get a first look at it and make suggestions. Everyone at the show seemed impressed with the Rebel and many folks just couldn't believe it was electric powered. In short, here is a summary of the suggestions that I will use.[ul][*] Reduce aileron offsets by 50% for high-alpha and under-cambered flying[*] Reduce leading edge slat offsets by 50% on both positions for a 0, 25, and 45 degree total offset from neutral[*] Replace rudder servo with a Spektrum [link=http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SPMSA6030]A6030[/link] High-Torque Digital Aircraft Servo[*] Double the length of the rudder control arm on the carbon rod to reduce mechanical gain and allow 100% servo travel
[/ul]
My demo stand is a large piece of EPS foam strapped to a Workmate-clone with the Rebel on top. It is balanced with two metal weights on the end of the wing tubes that also act as a display plaque holder. I have reinforced the wing tubes with a carbon tube inside and V-poxy. The Rebel is fully functional with one wing, except for operational retracts. Once I make the modifications listed above, we will bring the demo stand to the NEAT Fair in mid-September.

On the video, you can see me talking to Don Steeb (AMA 2163). Don was the founder of Don Steeb Inc. Precision Model Equipment which manufactured Atlas Servos in the 1950's & 60's era of R/C. He has been a mentor for many modelers in this hobby and is highly respected in our area. We took a quick video in the morning as the show was starting because we knew we would soon be busy.

[link=http://www.gregcovey.com/reviews/RebelDemo1.wmv]VERTIGO Rebel Demo Stand Video[/link] (13meg)
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Old 08-24-2010, 09:14 PM
  #49  
bruff
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

Very good.
Bob
Old 09-06-2010, 07:27 AM
  #50  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: AirShowRC VERTIGO Rebel

The poor weather this Labor Day weekend allowed me to work on the Rebel rudder control.

My first attempt was to replace the Spektrum DS821 servo with a stronger A6030 servo. To my surprise, this had no effect but allowed me to eliminate the servo as the reason for the rudder wobble.

Next, after re-installing the DS821 servo, I swapped the servo positions for the elevator and rudder and replaced the rudder linkage with some Hangar 9 and Dubro giant scale parts. The existing elevator linkage was shortened and the rudder linkage was a tight setup using slop-free giant scale parts.[ul][*] Du-bro #671 Super Strength JR Servo Arms[*] Du-bro #818 4-40 Safety Lock Kwik-Link[*] H9 (HAN3616) 4-40 HD Ball Links[*] H9 (HAN3551) 4-40 2" Titanium Pro-Links[*] H9 (HAN3574) 4-40 HD 1/2 Servo Arm[/ul]
Initially, I experimented with some external control linkages but came to the realization that a bell-crank system was needed and I did not really want an external, more complex solution.

Although my direct linkage was now the shortest and tightest possible, the main thing that seemed to reduce the rudder wobble was to double the length of the control arm glued to the carbon rod that swivels the rudder. This has a direct effect on the gain of the mechanical linkage and allowed me to once again set my servo travel on the transmitter to 100%. I also got some added benefit from slowing the servo speed down a bit on my JR x9503 transmitter.

The rudder control was pretty good now and should be ok for initial test flying. Ideally, the control arm on the carbon rod needs to be doubled again but making it any longer would push it outside the boom.

Next up, I'm going to secure the intake ducting and pack up the Rebel demo for the upcoming NEAT Fair.
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