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Electronic solutions to modifying glow engines of all sizes to gasoline

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Electronic solutions to modifying glow engines of all sizes to gasoline

Old 11-16-2023, 02:20 PM
  #2026  
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A change of pace every now and then rejuvenates the mind, Dave...
Old 11-17-2023, 04:46 PM
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Amazing Bert... I'm not really a "boat" guy but that one is truly unique and wonderful!!!

Its funny how so many of us had similar starts - My "engineering career" started with a Mamod engine. Just looked them up and can't believe what they go for now!
I was quite young and wasn't suppose to be firing it up when my Father wasn't around but did so regularly. Got caught once and had trouble sitting down for a few days
Before I switched to aircraft maintenance I ended my "steam" career as an operator of a 52MW General Electric Backpressure steam turbine generator and a 22MW Stal-Laval. The Stal was an amazing machine.

Old 11-18-2023, 02:57 AM
  #2028  
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I had to look up "Backpressure Turbine" because in shipping, that kind of set-up is basically never used thus the term was unfamiliar to me.
STAL-Laval on the other hand, although I never worked with them (never even saw one) were studied in-depth back in nautical college as they were back then regarded as the pinnacle of compactness (power vs size) but in fact actually were relatively rarely used in ships: the compactness only was in the turbine itself, the boiler and condenser installation still was HUGE, as were the required fuel volumes, which a ship has to bring along... People somehow completely overlooked the fact that where fuel is, no cargo can be, in the late '60's and early '70's

Back when I went to college (mid/late '80's), educations and competency certifications and such were lagging behind by about 10 years on actual technological trends, so there was still quite a bit of emphasis on steam while by then it was allready clear that steam turbines as a marine propulsion principle was over and done for.
During my career I have mainly operated steam as a pure heating medium, only once for power, and that was only the cargopumps.
Old 11-18-2023, 04:55 PM
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Back-pressure would be a stationary specific Installation I guess - We produced steam at 600PSI(4200KPA) and 1200PSI (8400KPA) (lots of superheat) and dropped it to 180psi (extraction) and 80psi (exhaust) - the Backpressue streams were at mild superheat for "dry transfer" through the headers and desuperheated just prior to use (Plant process heating). Most plant heat consumers were our "condensers" and recovered condensate was sent back to us. The Radial STAL was an amazing machine despite being a dated design when I operated it.. Super reliable and rugged. Because of its design you could take it from initial Roll to full load in 15 minutes- from Speed (3600RPM) no load to full load in 5 minutes... In contrast the GE took 4 hours from roll to full load to heat soak properly.

It seems that unfortunately all technical training suffers from what you mentioned Bert - All that I have taken part in has in both aviation and power engineering has been plagued.. you learn the applied technology while working on it it seems.

Old 12-04-2023, 04:40 AM
  #2030  
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I have mentioned this in the glow section as well, but I will repeat it here: It has all appearance that the ASP engines are making a comeback.
Your website name (sanyeengine.com)

IMHO excellent news because these engines have proven to be absolutely suitable for gasser conversion, and they were cheap enough to make a conversion directly from NIB cost effective compared to purpose built gassers like the Saito FG series. What is more: So far my ASP engines to this day still have a 0% score WRT mechanical faillures or even issues, and most of them even have a 0% score WRT deadstick landings.

So far, nothing has been confirmed yet, but I notified JustEngines, I should hear back from them soon enough.

Looking at the structure of the website (the product categories), it suggests that the new owners of Sanye are also considering gasoline engines, but nothing is mentioned about it yet, and of course it is anyones guess whether that will be new designs or simply adapted versions of the existing glow engines, or even if they are going to be "small" gassers (like typical glow territory) or if they will aim at the large scale market. Time will tell, heck, at the moment, it is said production has resumed, but nobody has seen any actual new production engines to begin with.

Now I woukd be highly surprised if Sanye would be the first manufacturer that would get carburation really properly right (not even Saito achieves what we achieve with our electronic conversions), so we still have purpose and application for the solenoid stuff, but at least, there will be affordable small fourstrokes again.

Last edited by 1967brutus; 12-04-2023 at 04:43 AM.
Old 12-04-2023, 02:48 PM
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If it's true that ASP is going to manufacture 4 strokes again it may be, in part, due to overinflated used market pricing. People are buying NIB Magnums for more than the original purchase price. I'm sure Sanye is keeping their finger on the pulse.

Last edited by Glowgeek; 12-05-2023 at 01:28 AM.
Old 12-05-2023, 10:19 AM
  #2032  
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Originally Posted by Glowgeek
I'm sure Sanye is keeping their finger on the pulse.
If anything, it is NOT Sanye keeping a finger on the pulse, at least not the Sanye that used to produce those engines.
If the "about us" page is anywhere truthful, this is a new owner and a new company basically taking over part of the name for recognizability.

Given that they started with the 52, they seem to absolutely do some research, AFAIK that was basically their highest volumes selling engine.

The 80, twin and radial all used the same pistons and liners, so that were logical restarts as well, especially the twin also being a pretty decent selling piece of kit (and based on my personal experience a deadreliable very hard wearing and durable engine).
Old 12-07-2023, 01:39 PM
  #2033  
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That's interesting, good to see them returning... curious as to the price they'll be asking for the ft160ar twin... the os ft160 is over $1400 usd on tower's site.
Old 12-07-2023, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by John_M_
That's interesting, good to see them returning... curious as to the price they'll be asking for the ft160ar twin... the os ft160 is over $1400 usd on tower's site.
Whatever happens, I am pretty sure it is NOT going to be cheaper than it was before (even if it COULD be, since the new owner won't have R&D expenses), but it sure will be cheaper than the OS.
IIRC it was around 700 Euro back when it was still in production, my gutfeeling is that it will be around 800 IF it will come back to the market.
Old 12-11-2023, 02:33 PM
  #2035  
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Anybody know how well these run? Still twice as big as my 120 twin...

https://www.horizonhobby.com/product...SAIEG41TS.html
Old 12-11-2023, 07:47 PM
  #2036  
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There's a couple YouTube videos on it... my only disappointment is their proprietary gas carb, which works OK until the "button check valves" start to leak... it's a nice engine otherwise... lends itself to modifications on the induction manifold... then one could use a walbro, or make a solenoid throttle body carb like Cat did.
Old 12-12-2023, 02:41 AM
  #2037  
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Originally Posted by Raleighcopter
Anybody know how well these run? Still twice as big as my 120 twin...

https://www.horizonhobby.com/product...SAIEG41TS.html
No direct knowledge, no, but from what I pick up, the Saito gasser carbs are a weird mixture between a half Walbro and a glorified glow carb.
I have seen a few FG series engines run, and to be totally honest, they run absolutely OK, but no better than what I achieved with grinding the slot in the barrel of a conventional glow carb (the ones I did NOT mess up, I mean ). Only differrence is that grinding a carb can be a hit or miss affair and the Saito carbs are for certain usable.

Since the success or faillure of the solenoid system is 100% dependent on the curves determined by the end-user, of course solenoid fuel control also is not the be-all, end-all solution, but I am absolutely convinced that a Saito carb will never match a PROPERLY set fuel curve as can be achieved with the solenoid system.

So yeah, I am pretty sure that twin will be a good runner (the engine layout is not as tricky to master as their radials) and the carb will function without problems,
But where all my solenoid fitted engines have basically clear oil as only exhaust residue (it took me quite a bit of tweaking of the curve, I freely admit, and the engine has to be fully broken in as well), I do not expect smoke-free or crud-free exhausts with the Saito's, in fact would be highly amazed if they were.

Last edited by 1967brutus; 12-12-2023 at 02:56 AM.
Old 12-12-2023, 03:35 AM
  #2038  
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The proprietary Saito gas carbs, sans the early FG-20 version, run spectacularly. I have three FG-21 and an FG14. One of the FG-21 has about 3 gallons run through and the oil comes out almost completely clear with no visible smoke except upon acceleration from a prolonged idle.

A good friend of mine has an FG-41TS with about 1 gallon run through. He says the exhaust oil is getting clearer each time he runs it. According to him the engine runs terrific but he is out of state so I'm taking his word on it.

John, my FG carbs do have a button with a spring in the middle of the carb. I assume this is for returning the pump diaphrams due to the lack of positive pulse pressure. It does not appear to seal anything. The pump diaphram has reed/flap valves like a Walbro. The FG-41TS carb appears to be same as used on the FG-21 albeit having a different part number. I searched for a carb rebuild kit for the 41TS to see if it used the same parts as a 21 but no luck finding one yet.

Last edited by Glowgeek; 12-12-2023 at 03:55 AM.
Old 12-12-2023, 04:32 AM
  #2039  
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Originally Posted by Glowgeek
The proprietary Saito gas carbs, sans the early FG-20 version, run spectacularly. I have three FG-21 and an FG14. One of the FG-21 has about 3 gallons run through and the oil comes out almost completely clear with no visible smoke except upon acceleration from a prolonged idle.
If that is true, then indeed I would consider that "spectacular", after all carbs are analog devices and cannot be tailored to every specific running condition.
But so far, I have not yet seen that, all the ones I have seen produced some black crud from the exhaust. Not much, but still...

The smoking on acceleration after prolonged idle is something that cannot be avoided when using mix-lubrication. You would need separate oil injection for that. My conversions do that as well.

Last edited by 1967brutus; 12-12-2023 at 04:34 AM.
Old 12-12-2023, 04:54 AM
  #2040  
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Originally Posted by Glowgeek
The proprietary Saito gas carbs, sans the early FG-20 version, run spectacularly. I have three FG-21 and an FG14. One of the FG-21 has about 3 gallons run through and the oil comes out almost completely clear with no visible smoke except upon acceleration from a prolonged idle.

A good friend of mine has an FG-41TS with about 1 gallon run through. He says the exhaust oil is getting clearer each time he runs it. According to him the engine runs terrific but he is out of state so I'm taking his word on it.

John, my FG carbs do have a button with a spring in the middle of the carb. I assume this is for returning the pump diaphrams due to the lack of positive pulse pressure. It does not appear to seal anything. The pump diaphram has reed/flap valves like a Walbro. The FG-41TS carb appears to be same as used on the FG-21 albeit having a different part number. I searched for a carb rebuild kit for the 41TS to see if it used the same parts as a 21 but no luck finding one yet.
Right, the pump diaphragm has the return spring on one side of the diaphram, along with the flapper check valves, that's part of the pump section to draw fuel from the tank to feed the metering section... the pump pulse is ported internally through the venturi throat... where it differes greatly from the walbro, if you look at the carb exploded view in the 41ts pdf, you'll see the 4 button / disc valves between each of the fuel metering stages... from what I gather, those button/ disc valves come as part of the complete carb assembly, or as part of the fuel pump subassembly... they function similar to the walbro needle & seat... when those button valves start to leak, fuel will drip from the venturi and the engine will run erratic, not hold a tune.
Old 12-12-2023, 02:07 PM
  #2041  
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Originally Posted by John_M_
Right, the pump diaphragm has the return spring on one side of the diaphram, along with the flapper check valves, that's part of the pump section to draw fuel from the tank to feed the metering section... the pump pulse is ported internally through the venturi throat... where it differes greatly from the walbro, if you look at the carb exploded view in the 41ts pdf, you'll see the 4 button / disc valves between each of the fuel metering stages... from what I gather, those button/ disc valves come as part of the complete carb assembly, or as part of the fuel pump subassembly... they function similar to the walbro needle & seat... when those button valves start to leak, fuel will drip from the venturi and the engine will run erratic, not hold a tune.
I see that on the parts diagram. Definitely different than an FG-21 carb. I must admit, I don't understand what all the extra buttons are for in the FG-41TS. Some sort of pressure regulation? Fuel "metering" happens at the spray bar in this type of carb as I understand it.
Old 12-12-2023, 06:04 PM
  #2042  
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Yes pretty much a demand regulator... they did away with the needle & seat and the lifting arm with the spring underneath... those button disc valves do the same thing... if you look at the atmosphere metering diaphram just behind the back cover plate, draw from the venturi moves the metering diaphram against the button disc valve which opens the valve to let fuel into the metering chamber, works similar to walbros... I like the walbros because they're easily serviced... but saitos idea has less moving parts to wear, no metering arm height adjustment, etc... but it's just an r&r replacement part as a whole... as you found, it's hard to locate that part# 160, which is the fuel pump / regulator section... that consist of all the soft parts, diaphrams, button valves, etc, as well as the hard parts, intermediate and back cover plates... they don't sell just the soft parts alone.
Old 12-28-2023, 05:50 PM
  #2043  
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Hey All, hope you all had a great Christmas (or whatever seasonal holiday you might Observe)..

As the new year approaches the glorious El Nino has granted its weather magic to the cold Canadian prairies - We have had a very mild start to winter with barely any snow so today I got brave and ventured out for a beautiful cool flying day. The wind was dead calm and it was one of these special deep Blue sky days that I have only seen in the cold of Northern Canada.. Was -2 Celsius and the boxer preformed great with no adjustments required from summer other than a small tweak on my "trim" knob (about 3% richer)

Short range outlook looks mild for the 1st - Might try again to kick off 2024 right...

https://studio.youtube.com/video/qwPgihjZukc




Old 12-29-2023, 02:32 AM
  #2044  
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I saw the vid in my daily YT feed, and indeed, it runs brilliantly.

Perhaps that 3% you had to trim it, has to do with fuel viscosity (which is not accounted for in the standard lines for mixture correction based on temperature and pressure) and maybe, if you have recorded data from the summertime you can work out a small tweak in the temperature correction factor to eliminate this?

I can imagine that by taking a different baseline than 0K for temperature would change the rate of correction for temperature. which could compensate a bit better for the increase of viscosity. Just as an example.
Right now we are correcting for temperature by converting Fahrenheit or Celsius to Kelvin, and all else remaining the same, every degree above freezing will reduce fuel by approx 1/273rd
Thi does not take into account that with rising temperature fuel viscosity drops a little, so actual fuel does not reduce by 1/273rd per degree.

So how if we would tweak that formula by pretending 0K is minus, say, 220 (just picking a number here, as example). That would increase the correction rate per degree of temperature to 1/220th.

How to work that into the code, I don't know because I'm not good at writing code. It would (if sufficient data is availlable to work out the deviation) eliminate the need for trimming for winter or summer.

Maybe it is a bit over the top, but maybe some of you guys like to tweak and fiddle.

But yes, it does perform absolutely sweet. Jealouse that I'm at sea and not flying, then again the weather over here is pretty awful at the moment. One storm after another.
Gonna be happy when this voyage is over in about a week, my seafaring days are over, done with the rolling and pitching, done with the stress and the ridiculous paperwork and BS procedures and the pressure from headoffice.

Last edited by 1967brutus; 12-29-2023 at 02:45 AM.
Old 12-29-2023, 04:49 PM
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I think there might be something else at play here too Bert - The engine ran fine at the "summer setting" on the ground run ups but was just slightly lean in the Air - My in flight CHT's were also low as the engine is uncowled.. I did try a few minutes of WOT and then I could dial out the additional fuel until it cooled again.. I don't think we are currently compensating for a "cooler" engine.. Had trouble getting above 120 deg and wouldn't stay there. Had the big prop on (18-6 wide) and it had lots of power.

Two things of note also: The engine ran very clean - Very little residue and was very light.

The fuel burn was incredible - I only filled the tank once and wanted to run it dry as I was using my Wife's SUV for transport. Bet I flew over 20 total minutes on 8 oz of fuel. Some putting around but lots of high power stuff too.. In the end to run dry - I set up a turn of about 700m in diameter and was trying to see how many I could do without correction - air was so smooth I had a few intervals where I counted 5 uncorrected circuits that were almost superimposed.

Old 12-29-2023, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 1967brutus
Gonna be happy when this voyage is over in about a week, my seafaring days are over, done with the rolling and pitching, done with the stress and the ridiculous paperwork and BS procedures and the pressure from headoffice.
Like retired from sea for good Bert??
Old 12-30-2023, 09:51 AM
  #2047  
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Originally Posted by Cat 1
I think there might be something else at play here too Bert - The engine ran fine at the "summer setting" on the ground run ups but was just slightly lean in the Air - My in flight CHT's were also low as the engine is uncowled.. I did try a few minutes of WOT and then I could dial out the additional fuel until it cooled again.. I don't think we are currently compensating for a "cooler" engine.. Had trouble getting above 120 deg and wouldn't stay there. Had the big prop on (18-6 wide) and it had lots of power.

Two things of note also: The engine ran very clean - Very little residue and was very light.

The fuel burn was incredible - I only filled the tank once and wanted to run it dry as I was using my Wife's SUV for transport. Bet I flew over 20 total minutes on 8 oz of fuel. Some putting around but lots of high power stuff too.. In the end to run dry - I set up a turn of about 700m in diameter and was trying to see how many I could do without correction - air was so smooth I had a few intervals where I counted 5 uncorrected circuits that were almost superimposed.
Everything plays a role, but so far I have not yet seen much influence from an engine running 80 degrees HT all the way up to 135 (this is the range I pass when doing a tow, and it never requires any correction)So I think the main influence is fuel viscosity making the engine a bit leaner.
Diesel (only a slight bit more viscous than gasoline/oil mix) easily changes a half to a full point of CentiStokes on a tempperature change of say, from freezing to 20 deg C, and that is noticable in things like pumping speed or filter differential pressures.

So yes, I think the viscositiy is the main issue. But that is relatively unimportant, because both engine running temp and fuel viscosity are affected by the same parameter: ambient temperature.

It could be worth a try. You progged your own driver, it should be easy to do an experiment. Tthe nasty thing is, it takes a minimum of 6 months to change progging, test in summer, then wait for winter to check the veracity of the claim....

The 20 minutes WOT on 8 oz, I think is pretty close. I have a variable timer as an emulation of a fuel gauge, and it is set at 13,5 minutes for aprox a 25% reserve fuel. Since I can "tune" my fuel curve, this timer is "fairly accurate" regardless of throttle position. So I am inclined to say that yeah, you probably would be running 20 minutes on a single 8 oz tank.

Last edited by 1967brutus; 12-30-2023 at 10:12 AM.
Old 12-30-2023, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Cat 1
Like retired from sea for good Bert??
Never say never, but the chances I will go back to sea on a cargo ship are slim to none.

The new job will be harbour tugs, and those things are certified for sea, but don't really undertake voyages. At best ferrying to any port within a 10 hr range, or single day contractors work but that is rare and not the main occupation of these tugs. 99% is mooring assistance, 5% is escorting (big tankers are required to take a number of tugs allready at the port limit and are not allowed to move without tug escort).
Three man crews, shifts of 1 week on, 1 week of, every 5 cycles a 2-week leave, for a total of 23 weeks per year on board.
Old 12-30-2023, 09:07 PM
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That sounds like a better "gig". I made a change many years back when I left "Stationary Engineering" behind and got into Aviation. The main reason was with the loss of my "Local" Job meant having to work remote in the "Oil Patch" and be away for long periods. Despite being a big "reset" I'm sure glad I did that.

I wonder if my "air pump" set up is a bit to blame for the small mixture change - I didn't check the pressure but might not like pumping cold air as well as the internals and the seals are all rubber and plastic..

I think your probably right with the viscosity -

All in all it was a super easy adjustment that took seconds - and it biased the whole curve and ran great. My standard setting is the knob detent so in summer I just wind back to that. I remember running both glow and gas in the cold and had much more trouble than this. I use to bring thermos's of hot water to preheat glow units to get them to light off..
Old 12-30-2023, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat 1
That sounds like a better "gig".
For my mental state it sure is. The downside is a reduction in income of about 25% for the remainder of my working life (about 12 years to go until retirement) which will also significantly impact my retirement funds. That is a lump that is hard to swallow...

Originally Posted by Cat 1
I wonder if my "air pump" set up is a bit to blame for the small mixture change - I didn't check the pressure but might not like pumping cold air as well as the internals and the seals are all rubber and plastic..
Dang... I forgot about that... Indeed, that pump now works with colder air which has different compresability.
Remember that you mentioned "lots of power"? make no mistake, the engine actually IS developing more power in winter because of not only the larger quantity of air ingested, but also because of its compressibility.
I distinctly remember that on the big ships when in colder climated, we were required to reduce power a bit, not because of the engine, but because of overloading the turbochargers, that had difficulties (WRT material strength of the blower wheel) in too cold and too dense air.

Originally Posted by Cat 1
I think your probably right with the viscosity
I am sure it has an effect, but since I forgot about your air pump, I am now unsure which effect is greater.
Regardless of which, they most likely still follow temperature and should be or could be compensated for in the formula.

Originally Posted by Cat 1
All in all it was a super easy adjustment that took seconds - and it biased the whole curve and ran great. My standard setting is the knob detent so in summer I just wind back to that. I remember running both glow and gas in the cold and had much more trouble than this. I use to bring thermos's of hot water to preheat glow units to get them to light off..
Yeah, I am most definitely convinced that what we have here (the electronic addition by means of solenoid valve) is way better than anything analog out there, because just as an example, my trusty old Ducati cannot handle the ambient airtemperature range that my "ex-glow engines" can...
That bike needs an intake air preheater to run right in colder temperatures, that no one fits because it is such an extreme hassle to fit it and remove it again in summer....

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