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HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

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HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

Old 01-14-2004, 06:17 PM
  #51  
klbass
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

I say again that I think this thread has served its purpose.

My purpose of this thread is not to discredit the actual club. My purpose of this thread is to express my opposition to such a drastic, and unprecedented decisions to not allow "legal maneuvers" at an event that is a "general" large aircraft fly-in. I feel that if I were the CD, I would have put forth every effort to come up with a decision that made each flyer as happy as possible and insure they return the next year. That didn't happen.

If there is one good thing that came from this post, it is that the Rocket City club has given an explanation of the conditions that created
their decision. From that, I hope that other CD"s can be more "creative" with ways to make all forms of flying work at their flyins.

[quote]ORIGINAL: DocYates

Why he (the original poster) chose to do this, I do not know. If it was an effort to discredit that particular club, in my opinion he failed miserably.
Old 01-14-2004, 07:18 PM
  #52  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

Boy it is amazing everybodys got an ax to grind. you cant please all the people all the time!
Old 01-14-2004, 08:04 PM
  #53  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

What point are we missing here guys? Who owns the event anyway? Who is solely responsible for putting the event on, staffing it, funding it, running it, deciding what type of event it will be? Is it those that attend the event, or those that host the event. Are they allowed to cancel the event if they so choose, and not run it at all? If so, why are we complaining that just want to change the event to suite their interests?



Us 3D flyers should not be trying to pressure others into letting us fly at their events, and complaining because they don't want us there. They aren't bigots, they are just not interested in 3D like we are, and choose to run their fly-in in the manner they wish. If they want to paint their clubhouse pink, and the club members vote 100% in favor of it, whats our beef? They 'own' the event, and its theirs to do with as they please.

So why do some here think we have a say in what they do with their event, any more or less that thinking we have a say in what they do with their clubhouse? The host club has every right to run the event, cancel it, change it, or set any and all rules pertaining to the event they wish. They do in fact 'own' the event, and are gracious enough to forego their weekend of pleasure, to work hard for the pleasure of others.

If we want more places to fly 3D, we need to do what they did, and put in the elbow grease on our own, just as they have. We can't assume we can hijack their event and dictate the rules. Nor can they dictate the rules your club lives by.

All complaining will do is create animosity between the two groups, much like the issues that are in front of most RC clubs with fixed wing and helicopters. And the incompatibilities between general flying and 3D is so very similar to those between fixed wing and helicopters. Jump into the helicopter and RC forums and look up the on-going and never ending heated arguments between the two at many clubs. Lets not take that route.

Yes, we do have a lack of events that cater to 3D. Its not their fault, nor should be make it their fault. Its our fault, because we haven't taken the time to go out and worked a deal with a club to host an event in our area. We haven't assembled the volunteers. We haven't put in all the up front work required to host such as event. We haven't advertised it, staffed it, and ran it.

Let the scale guys "tag along with 3D"! LOL, its obvious we are trying to tag along with them, and bad mouthing them because they aren't letting us. I would bet the Huntsville event is run by scale pilots, staffed by scale pilots, paid for by scale pilots, etc. How many 3D pilots are working the impound, the flight line, working the parking lot, mowing the field prior to the event, running the food concession, and so forth. Tagging along? [&:] I would think that if that were the case, 3D wouldn't have been voted out by 100% of the members, since at least one of the 3D pilots that worked so hard on the event would have voted to allow it, thus lowering it to something less that 100%, no?

If the trend of 3D is as popular as people suggest, it will be very easy to secure a club, find volunteers, get donations to fund it and staff it, and these events will pop up all over just like those tied to turbines, scale, pylon, electrics, and so on. All it takes is people who are past complaining and ready to step up to the plate and do the work. IMAC wasn't handed to that group. Nor were the turbine events. Those events weren't hijacked from 'old dying scale pilots' and turned into turbine or IMAC events. No, those pilots got together to make new events happen, and put in the work required.

So why are we complaining? Are we just not as good as the IMAC and turbine guys? Or for that matter, the free flight, gliders, pylon pilots?
Old 01-14-2004, 10:38 PM
  #54  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

Sfaust.. Thank You!
That was the most intelligent and well said thing on this thread.

DP
Old 01-14-2004, 11:29 PM
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

sfaust,

I just visted your site. It sure is nice and all and you have a lot of nice planes but I dont see any of them flying. Did I overlook some photos?
Old 01-14-2004, 11:49 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

ORIGINAL: southern_touch9
sfaust,

I just visted your site. It sure is nice and all and you have a lot of nice planes but I dont see any of them flying. Did I overlook some photos?
Yes, I guess you have. There are some shots of the airplanes in the video clips, since they were taken by a friend. Mostly the 40% Patty Wagstaff Extra, and the 40% Giles 300. A few others are thrown in elsewhere. Very few photos though since I am the one that has taken all most all of the photos and videos on the site. I'd have to admit that I have a very hard time taking photos and flying at the same time
Old 01-15-2004, 01:21 AM
  #57  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

We sincerely appreciate the support from 3-D and non-3-D pilots on this issue. All we have asked is for the rights of our club to be observed and respected. Though some of you do not agree with our decision, you have at least respected it. Then again, others choose not to agree and to show disrespect by flaming others and us.

One thing should be pointed out. People from many different clubs will be reading these comments. Only time will tell how this influences the decisions they make. Just something to think about.

Attitudes are funny. Unfortunately they can be revealed in the air just as they are in words. This is not good for anyone. We had hoped this would not become a public issue displayed on the public Internet. It has, and we can't change that now.

We wish no one any harm and we respect the rights of all clubs and organizations to organize and promote their interest as they see fit. Let's bring this to a close and move on. Here is to a new year for all.



Sincerely,

Roger F. Woodward
Al Big Bird Fly In - 2004
Assistant CD
Old 01-15-2004, 08:32 AM
  #58  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

If you really want another 3D event in the area, my club is just finishing up work on our new field which has 350 feet of asphalt and a very nice clubhouse. I just went thru the hoops to get my CD certificate, and we will host a 3D only fly-in for you, and I promise we won't invite the scale guys...;-)
No hard feelings. huh??
Tommy
Old 01-15-2004, 08:50 AM
  #59  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

Aw come one Doc. Invite the scale guys, but only if they promise to fly 3D! After all, they invited you if you promised not to fly 3D.
Old 01-15-2004, 09:53 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

OK, anyone with a B-17 that will hover and do a Harrier can bring it along.
Tommy
Old 01-15-2004, 11:18 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

sherwin, I respect you age & experience with rc .And I can see how passionate your love for this sport is .But with words like "don't come .,& we wont miss you at all, " I think you might be casting a dark shadow on a great sport.It is easy to divide people with anger ,but I don't believe thats what needs to be displayed here .I think maybe both sides could compromise and "listen" to what the other guy is trying to say.This will help long term commitment to the club and enjoyment by all.Or maybe one of these days someone who is less understanding will come and ban this sport altogether. I'ts not unlike a marriage -If it is not good for "both" partners its not going to last for long!!
hope ya'll can work together & work the problems out soon.
if so I would love to see your field
shaun russell
Old 01-15-2004, 12:12 PM
  #62  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

Shaun, I agree with Mr. Sherwin Arculis 200%, he couldn`t have said it easier to understand for people that do not respect private decisions. I am shure they have put a lot of effort into their great GET-TOGETHER and gave it a lot of thinking, and I bet you they do love watching a good 3-D pilot fly his routines, but they have the right to decide what they want in this or any of their events and nobody from outside their GREAT group has to say anything about it but good things. Before Mr. Arculis posted his message, others explained the same perspective, but quickly somebody jumped on that and gave them a hard time. What do you expect, do you thing they have to put up with negative comments about their decision, it is THEIR decision and it MUST be respected, besides, I suggest we sit down and listen to the people that have been in the hobby for a long time, they are the ones with the wisdom, and I assure you they have seen this before, and they knew what to expect. Complainers take my advise, learn to RESPECT.
Old 01-15-2004, 12:17 PM
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

From the RCRC website:

While RCRC encourages modelers in all aspects of the hobby, 3-D flying at this event has become an obstacle to the traditional pilot trying to fly. Due to the location of the plane and pilot, the noise created when performing maneuvers, and serious safety considerations, the traditional pilot elects not to fly under these conditions.
From last years RCU forum:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_84...tsville/tm.htm
In closing, I lost my beautiful Pitts Special (it was beautiful to me) due to my own stupidity. Go figure . In short, one airplane and two Tx's on the same channel just don't mix. Moral to this story, always have the channel pin. My error, I didn't have the pin.
What is the greater safety issue?!!!

My point now and in my first post was not to deride or embarrass but to question the "SAFETY" issue used as an excuse to exclude 3D. Restrict your fly-in to whatever you please, just don't label something dangerous as a means to do so. Every aspect of this sport has an element of risk and all flyers must work to keep our actions and emotions from from causing real harm to the hobby.

Don't want this one event's problems to have nationwide exposure - too late - it's getting much negative commentary from all sides.

As I said, do as your club pleases, it's just a bad precedent.
Old 01-15-2004, 12:54 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

dear mr torres I think you might have missed my point.I did state that I respected sherwin's age & experience.I just would like more positive things said in this sport and not negative ones.My response was not about the issue of 3d . But how he was responding to the issue, and how it could divide people that fly rc planes.respect is not always earned by age but listening. sorry if I offended anyone
thanks again
shaun
Old 01-15-2004, 01:09 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

ORIGINAL:TorqueCat
What is the greater safety issue?!!!
My point now and in my first post was not to deride or embarrass but to question the "SAFETY" issue used as an excuse to exclude 3D. Restrict your fly-in to whatever you please, just don't label something dangerous as a means to do so.
When pilots are hovering, torque rolling, and doing low level maneuvers over the runway, the flight profile is very much like that of a helicopter, and not of a traditional fixed wing aircraft. I don't think their assessment of risk is with the 3D maneuvers themselves, but of mixing the two different disciplines of flight together, all in front of a large crowd of spectators and pilots. A mid-air show central would severely compromise overall safety. Its the same safety concerns that have been hashed over and over between fixed wing and helicopters over the years and resulted in the split between the two. I hope 3D and traditional flight don't take the same avenue, but if this thread is any indication, us 3D guys better start pulling our share and getting some events together or we won't have many places to fly after pissing off all the non-3D fliers.

Risk assessment is a personal choice. Some people think nothing of skydiving, while others shutter at the thought. Neither is wrong, and both are doing what is right for them. One can agree or disagree, but they have no right to question the others personal decision not to partake in that sport. The club spoke unanimously that they prefer not to have 3D at their event for a number of reasons. But do they even need a reason other than they prefer the more tranquil pace of a traditional scale fly in, one that they pay for and host with their volunteered time????

Geez, I can't ever remember a time I invited someone over to my house for dinner, and received rude complaints that I served chicken rather than the pasta dish they preferred!!!
Old 01-15-2004, 01:10 PM
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

I agree with you too Shawn. Thanks for your honesty and your prompt feedback, I can see you are also a Gentleman.
Old 01-15-2004, 01:30 PM
  #67  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

ORIGINAL: DocYates

If you really want another 3D event in the area, my club is just finishing up work on our new field which has 350 feet of asphalt and a very nice clubhouse. I just went thru the hoops to get my CD certificate, and we will host a 3D only fly-in for you, and I promise we won't invite the scale guys...;-)
No hard feelings. huh??
Tommy

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOING!!
Just kidding of course.
Old 01-15-2004, 02:05 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

To each his own I guess.

A lot of valid points have been made here, good thread and very very little name calling on such an emotional topic. I still wont be going to the event but I say us 3D guys need to go ahead and form our own 3D fly ins. Blaine Austin has done it but it is limited to IMAA planes (mostly). I say we all get together and welcome any type of plane that can 3D. As you can see this hobby has too many different categories for the 3D people to be sub catagorizing. I like anything that can do 3D, be it electric, spad, giant scale, funfly, etc. I know there are others out there that feel this way. We need to let this club do what they want and not show up (if you are unhappy with the way the event is run). Is it sad that they exclude us? Yes. Are they missing out on the fastest growing sector of the hobby? Yes. Its there loss, lets have our own 3D fly in and show them what they are missing.
Old 01-15-2004, 09:24 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

ORIGINAL: rfw1953

During the event and after several complaints made by members and guest, Chuck, the event CD, made the tough call to limit flight times between 3-D and traditional scale flying - one hour for 3-D, and one hour and thirty minutes for scale. Time allocations were based on the number of registered pilots flying 3-D and all others. This decision was not made in a vacuum. Chuck discussed the matter with the club President, BOD members and several general members. He held a pilots meeting the next morning and made the announcement to all pilots. A few of the 3-D pilots made a fuss over the decision. There were a few harsh words and that was it. None of the scale pilots objected.
I've spent the last hour reading this post... So this isn't a flippant response to just the title of the thread....

First off I want to say that I RESPECT YOUR DECISION TO HAVE YOUR STYLE FLYIN. You're doing the work... You get the say.....

However, it is troubling to me.. and I have some points I'd like to make.

It is obvious that some of the 3D pilots you had flying at the last flyin were less than respectful to the wishes of the events organizers. I believe all flying styles and flyers should be respected.. and accommodated.

I agree with your first effort. And I agree that mixing pattern/sport/scale flying and 3D is difficult and would make some uncomfortable... But creating time slots for each style was the answer to peacefully coexisting... Why didn't you stick to your guns and enforce this instead of placing the ban? Why ban the style when it was just a few bad apples?

You said you occasionally enjoy seeing this kind of flying... Why not take the high road and make an extra effort to be accommodating to both styles?
Old 01-15-2004, 10:55 PM
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

Paul, Our members felt that due to the number of participants and the mix in flying styles that it was time for us to separate these events. We experienced problems as a result of the differences in flying styles. 3-D is now scheduling 3-D only events, which seems to be perfectly acceptable to everyone. We addressed the options in multiple meetings and discussions and ultimately believed it was in the best interest of everyone for us to change the format. The club voted unanimously in favor of the decision.
We have posted the format change on our website and in fliers sent to potential guest well in advance of the event. Our hope is that that those who have not been coming, or have chosen to stop coming will once again consider this event as a result of the format change.

Folks, I sincerely believe we have beaten this issue into the ground. As one poster said, this thread has wore out it's welcome. I couldn't agree more. I honestly don't believe any further representation from our club is necessary. The same issues keep surfacing and we have hashed this out enough. We have kicked, screamed, disagreed and become a bit punchy, but no harm done to anyone. I have a plane that I need to finish and would like to get back to that. Not running away, just don't see any constructive reason to keep this going. I hope you agree. On behalf of RCRC thank you for allowing us to debate this issue. No flaming, or harsh words here so please allow me to bow out politely.

Sincerely,

Roger F. Woodward
Assistant CD
Al Big Bird Fly In

2004
Old 01-16-2004, 08:06 AM
  #71  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

two thumbs up roger,I believe nobody will be accusing you off running away.Not everyone is going to agree on everything.And I feel you have done more than you fair share of listening.My respect you have earned with your mannerism and patience on this matter. good luck on your new plane,your flying,& your club. regards
shaun russell
Old 01-19-2004, 01:22 AM
  #72  
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

there goes the neighborhood-fighting and fussing about 3D-who needs it BAN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 01-19-2004, 09:15 AM
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Default RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!

Huntsville is RIGHT on and has the common sense to deal with problems before they cause BIGGER ones for RC!!!!! AMA Brown touched on this general area in the last issue but lacked specifics. Is the issue-OLD FARTS vs YOUNG FARTS? No, the issue is RESPONSIBLE, CONCERN, RESPECT for others! A RARE THING TODAY. What ever your AGE is- You can LEARN something from OLD FARTS, who were YOUNG once too.

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