AMB

OK group John Deere starting fluid is labeled 80% ether, now we know they use a gas propellant, Is the remaining liquid (after gas is removed) 80% ether mixed with some other volatiles
or pure ether martin

if it is other volatiles could it be counted as Kerosene (the volatiles) and adjust the kero percent accordingly
If not all ether when you made up fuel you would be lower on ether % (I.E) 100cc of this would only be 80cc of pure ether

[email protected]

Martin, John Deere ether starting fluid label indicates 80% ether as you wrote. The other 20% probably mostly propelant with some upper cylinder lubricant. the propelant gasses out and I get 8 fluid ounces of ether from each can. I figure close to 100% ether in the 8 fluid ounces. I have had good luck mixing fuel using John Deere ether. I buy 4 cans at a time and lasts me for years. Jack

AMB

JACK THX for the info I use Davis fuel 1/2 A and ABC and do bother making fuel, I have reordered the 1/2A from him but will be a few days before it gets here UPS pretty busy with Christmas so a stop gap so I can fly martin


Jack post note just picked up today at the John deere place today its now a 7oz can 3 will last a while

Just checked the sheet that came with my Enya Cx 11D they give a formula36-37% kero 36-37% ether, 25% castor oil ign improver 1-3% I have the amsoil cetane booster

ethyl octyl/hexyl ethyl nitrate so all set ,not doing the 1/3rd 1/3rd 1/3rd PAW thing martin

Recycled Flyer

Hi Martin,
     just noticed your address 'Winter Park Florida.'

Does Florida even have that season on its calender?

[email protected]

Martin. the can lists 7 ounces but I get 8 fluid ounces. I also use commercial fuel. But mix my fuel for the SAM old timeTexaco events. Jack

AMB

Recycled Flyer the name winter park dated back to the late 1800s or early 1900s when the folks from up north took the train and fled here to escape the harsh winters up north
we have a small town about 15 miles from here named Christmas folks drive from miles away to mail their christmas cards from there for the postmark less than a 100o folks live there martin

AMB

I was talking to Bob Davis today when I ordered some of his 1/2 fuel and mentioned the K-1 Kero low sulfur and de-odorized from the hardware store, he stated not really the best
for diesel fuel a lot of aromatics are removed besides sulfur hence no odor may be napthalene and some others it does reduce the volatility for diesel fuel martin

aspeed

I was wondering if the car/truck diesel fuel might be the best, cheapest and most easily obtainable.  It is made for that purpose.  Ours is low sulphur now.  I got a couple of spray cans of starter fluid that is some other brand.  I still have to make a head for a motor after 20 years of procrastinating following a bad trip with a diesel as a kid.  I will likely be driving by Winter Park and places similar in Feb. to escape the snow.  No room for planes though.

AMB

Aspeed regular diesel fuel #2 is not really suitable for our model diesel use, its been tried too heavy a fraction compared to #1 Kero, no model diesel formula suggests it
you would have to run the engine in an over compressed state which would damage the engine and badly carbon up the engine also, If it worked would have been in use 60 years ago
every model diesel engine maker states kerosene in the formula martin

steve111

If you've got an airport handy, it should be possible to get hold of some Jet A1, which works well for our purposes.

greggles47

The Barton CL Forum, had a log thread about kero's quite a while ago. After a number of people doing independent testing, it was found that Kero covers a wide range of products some of which are next to useless for our purposes. The better ones are those that are designed as fuel (no surprise there).

For Aussie TR fliers KCB (from an Auto store) proved to be the most powerful and consistent.

Here's a link to the thread
http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/vie...r=asc&&start=0

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

Tertiary butyl alcohol ( aka butanol) is added to Australian kerosene (0.5% b/v) to discourage its use in fuel for diesel engined road vehicles, and preserve it not being taxed as a road fuel. It is apprently an ignition suppressant.

That said, if competition fliers here use standard retail package kerosene, it can not be such a problem. I have also read that butanol is a road diesel fuel additive to reduce soot emissions.

Ray did some research on this some years ago.

I have been inclined of late to obtain some Jet A-1 to try. I have access. Then again, it may contain fungicides, anti-statics, flame retardants and other additives that could be worse for our purposes than butyl alcohol.

Martin, until the 60's, many UK model diesel engine manufacturers recommended "Iranian Gas Oil " and "DERV" as the base stock for model diesel fuel. That being, british speak for diesel motor spirit. Whether feed stock and formulae for this fuel have changed significantly since those times (discounting advertising hype from Oil Companies) is not a matter I can comment on.

AMB

FIERY a good friend of mine flys out of a local airport he would pick up a gallon of Jet A for me all I have to is give him a gallon jug, the local hardware store has the de-odorized K-1
they now want $12.95 a gallon for it think price is a little stiff not that I cannot afford it but think its a rip off martin

at least the 80% Deere starting fluid a good deal $4.30 a can

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

Last time I looked, JD Premium Starting Fluid (80% ether b/v) was approximately AUD $15.00 a can in Australia, making solvent grade di-ethyl ether a bargain at $20.00 a litre.

ffkiwi

Traditionally-back in the 50's and 60's-the heyday of diesel-there were two grades of kerosene for domestic use-'lighting' for kerosene lamps (which was a lighter, cleaner burning grade) and 'power' for kerosene heaters and those other devices (Lister pump engines, some tractors etc) that burned it. The latter was often colored blue, regardless of the brand on the tin or bottle. I also recall that for 'our' use, such authorities as 'Aeromodeller' and the 'Model Aero Engine encyclopaedia recommended the 'power' grade be used.
Obviously 'kerosene', just like petroleum, is a mixture of various boiling fractions and equally a mix of aliphatic and aromatic hydrocarbons. It would be a surprise to me now, with EPA, catalytic converters, emission control and WHY if the kerosene currently sold as kerosene has the same formulation as that marketed in the 1950s and 1960s........anymore than the petrol now is the same as that of the 50s and 60s!
There have been enough threads here and elsewhere (eg Barton) to indicate that not all kerosenes work well these days for our current applications. [Personally mine is what comes out of the 1-litre bottle sold in the local supermarket.....but maybe I'm just lucky]

On the subject of Jet A-1, in the mid 1980s one of NZ's top TR fliers, Mark Elder, did some exhaustive testing on Jet A-1 as a replacement for the kerosene component in our diesel fuel. He found no detectable difference whatsoever in performance and handling between the kerosene in use at the time, and Jet A-1. So while Jet A-1 may not be any better than kerosene, it is certainly no worse..........and gives you bragging rights at the circle...!-) About the only advantage (assuming you have a mate who can supply you with the stuff, is that it is likely to have a much more rigorously specified formulation than run of the mill kerosene-and so should not show a lot of variation from batch to batch......and the latter seems to be one of the big issues with 'supermarket' or 'car accessory store' chain bought kerosene.

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

When our excellent quality "Diggers" brand kero went downmarket, I rang their technical department and had a long conversation with a senior Chemist. He suggested that all Australian kero was Jet-A1.

The Aircraft market is the biggest user of kerosene anywhere, and apart from some second and third countries where kero is used for heat for cooking it's probably true everywhere., .

We tried JET-A1 from a source at Qantas. The first batch was good, but the second wasn't. If you can get a consistent supply it's fine. Apparently additives are used for fungal and other problems

We settled for the KCB brand kero available from Super Cheap Auto and many other sources. It's consistently good. I also keep a stash of about 50 litres in-case it changes.

I believe than many of the F2C flyers are now running Recosol D60, a very high quality cleaning solvent superior to kero in most respects.

Unless you're pushing for that last 10% of power even the new daggy "Diggers" brand will probably do ok.

Ray

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

Recosol D60

http://www.recochem.com.au/files/dow..._PDS_Apr10.pdf

http://www.recochem.com.au/index.php...m/recosol_d601

http://www.recochem.com.au/files/dow..._D60_Sep11.pdf

Rechochem have four different kerosenes available.

www.recochem.com.au/index.php/msds/k/

Lots of fun to be had for experimenters.

AMB

Fiery and the rest of the group "starter fluid" as we know sold in the auto parts and supermarket outlets is very low in ether content and runs maybe $6 a can or more
John Deere runs about the same at the tractor supply place here where I live I get a mechanics discount, quite nice of them for that $4.30 a can price
again this subject kero and ether has been beat to death on this forum but the chaps in the know get around it and come up with usable formulas with te proper ingrediants
again we are lucky here in the the USA to have the Davis mixes which I use unless I run out ....martin

Post note Fiery really deserves our thanks for all his R and D looking up all this info and couple of other of you guys down under too

ffkiwi

Quite true Martin-I've probably told the tale before-but in 2001 the NZ Army deployed me to Bougainville as part of the multinational peacekeeping force monitoring the Bougainville peace accords following the long civil war there. I was in charge-as a major, of one of the operational monitoring teams in the west of that wild and primitive country. My mechanic was a kiwi but serving with the Australian army-and unbeknownst to me when I arrived as his new OC, was a bit of a closet modeller who'd dabbled in C/L. I don't know what the odds are of two aeromodellers winding up together in the same 12 man team in a multinational peacekeeping mission-but they must be millions to one......anyway he didn't know much about fuel and was attempting to run a Black Widow powered simple C/Ler on some weird concoction he'd managed to cadge from the medical facility at main HQ. Needless to say nothing was working! He planned to fly it on the nicely mown grass heli landing pad opposite our compound.
As part of my initial inspection of the facilities I discovered in the very large and amazingly well equipped (for the location!) workshop was a large supply of 'tropical engine start'-boxes and boxes of the stuff.
Voila-diesel here we come-an email to David Owen had an MP Jet Classic winging its way to us, and eventually it turned up, along with its radial mount and was installed on the model. THEN I made a small but significant discovery..............the 'tropical' engine start only contained 25% ether...........ooops! Well I figured the rest would be hydrocarbons-so that was the kerosene component taken care of, so using outboard motor oil, we mixed up a batch of 30% lube (brand new motor remember!)......of course addition of the oil took the ether content now down to a mere 17.5%. We flicked long and arduously, but never managed more than a few isolated pops out of it..........so the dream of being the first people to ever fly C/L in Bougainville came and went.........

I lost touch with him when I repatriated-(he departed the mission before me) and wonder from time to time if he ever persevered when he got back to Australia.

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

AMB

Chris thats a real saga but you tried with what you could get your hands on, really is the most interesting thing I ever read on our hobby thing

Determination is every thing martin

At least you gave it all your effort

ffkiwi

Yes-had the starting fluid been 80% ether rather than 25% I have absolutely no doubt at all that we would have got the engine to run adequately, outboard motor oil not withstanding-and been able to fly the model. Even with the manky fuel I could tell we were on the verge of getting sustained firing-had the ether content been around 25% we would have managed quite well.Kerosene we already had by the 44-gal drum in the workshop-so if we'd had the 80% mix we could have blended a fuel from kero, engine start and oil and not had to rely on whatever mix of hydrocarbons formed the remaining 75% of the engine start for the fuel power component. Props might have been a bit of an issue-I imagine a 6x5 would probably be appropriate for the MP Jet Classic in C/L mode-but David Owen could have come to our rescue again. For the life of me I can't recall now-more than a decade later what prop we actually did use-it certainly wasn't the one off the Black Widow, which was a 3-bladed 5x3 Cox. I must have ordered props from David when I ordered the engine.
What the locals would have made of the activity had we been successful I don't know..........

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

MSDS for John Deere Premium Starting Fluid below.

After allowing for hydrocarbon and Co2 propellant, there is less than 1% lubricant in the liquid. A can would make up a US quart of good diesel fuel.

At $4.00 a can for those who live in the contiguous US States (California excepted) it seems a bargain.

My local hobby store owner has retired and will be ordering no further ether. My nearest supplier (R/C fuels) is in Logan 400 km away. This could be a good alternative for me. I have a John Deere distributor/dealer mot too far away.

http://www.greenpartstore.com/assets...56468_msds.pdf

http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-D...-RE556468.html

Bill Adair

My Feedback: (1)

I'm still using JD starting fluid, but my fuel batches have always seemed a bit shy on Ether. Most have been equal parts of JD, Castor, and Kero, with 1-2 percent Amsoil Cetane booster added.

My next small batch will be mixed assuming approximately 65-75 percent actual Ether content in the sprayed off JD fluid. I'm not sure what the remainder of the captured fluid might be, but would sure like to know what's going on here.

Any ideas?

Bill

Lou Crane

The MSDS and/or the kerosene spec sheets give an answer for the difference between volume rendered and weight specified on the JD can.

Specific Gravity of the kerosenes listed was 0.77...As I recall, it is even lower for di-ethyl ether - 0.7 or even less... If you have equal weights of water and di-ethyl ether, the volume of the ether will be the volume of water divided by the SG. Call ether's SG 0.7? Then the ether volume is 1 / 0.7, or about 1.4 times as great.

Here in the USA, we measure fuel ingredients by volume, not by weight. 1 fl oz is 1.8 cu in volume.

Even with the loss of some of the ether from the JD spray nozzle, we get more than 6 fluid ounces out. I've had more than 8 fl oz from JD cans.

Best way to milk the spray can? Find a spray tip that fits an extension straw and the JD feed tube. Change to that spray tip and straw. Find a catch jar for which you have two screw caps. Punch a hole in one screw on cap large enough to pass the straw. Fill the jar, remove the JD and shake the can well. You can milk out more about twice that way.

I mark the catch jar at slightly more than the volume of ether I'll need to brew a present batch. Seal the catch jar with the intact cap..

When all propellant pressure is let out of the JD can, ONLY THEN do I consider it safe to punch the rim of the JD can to pour out any remaining liquid ether.

This is safe to do, efficient at recovering the liquid ether and has the advantage that you can stop 'milking' when you have as much ether as you need. What's left, if any, is safely stored in the JD can.

EDIT to add: the Specific Gravity relationship is independent of the units of measure: it is like a dimensionless coefficient.

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

John Deere premium starting fluid is not usually stocked where I am. However this is available for purchase on-line on a point-and-click purchase basis.

The MSDS shows over 50% ether, with balance liquid being "petroleum ether" which I understand is heavier than stove naphtha, and lighter than kerosene

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BOSTON-St...item3f3f3fae7e

http://www.campbellswholesale.com.au...D319162125.pdf

I'd say it could make a viable sport diesel fuel mixed to 75% / 25% b/v with castor oil. Worth an experiment.