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Super Tigre G/20 .19 Diesel RC????

Old 03-22-2014, 08:27 AM
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Default Super Tigre G/20 .19 Diesel RC????

Hi Everybody:


There is this engine advertised on E Bay. The seller claims that it is a .19 since there is no number stamped in the circle below the exhaust. I have never seen or heard of a G20/.19 Diesel let alone a RC version. Is this engine for real? If it is, it should be very rare! I have owned a G 15D RV and a G/20 .15 FI Diesel. I think that I have seen all of the Smaller ST Diesel engines but never a G20/.19D.

Comments?

Tia,

Franchi
Old 03-22-2014, 12:37 PM
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You're most likely right, ebay descriptions are not very reliable in many case. All the ST G20 diesels were not r/c but c/l and 2.5cc(.15 ci).
Old 03-22-2014, 08:06 PM
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It's always dangerous saying that Super Tigre didn't make a particular engine.

As a general rule I'd say that if a particular configuration was possible then they would have made it for some group somewhere.

The G20/15 series was on sale from the mid 60's to the late 80's, ample time for all the possibilitues to be tried.

I have an unrun G20/15D (2.5cc diesel) with a factory fitted r/c carby in my diesel stach.

I've also heard that there was a .19 version.

Looking at the ebay item I noticed that it's from toys_tophobby a reputible dealer who knows his stuff.

I'd be happy to buy the engine if the price was right, but I'm sure that it'll go through the roof.

Last edited by qazimoto; 03-22-2014 at 08:13 PM.
Old 03-22-2014, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by qazimoto






Looking at the ebay item I noticed that it's from toys_tophobby a reputible dealer who knows his stuff.
That's not always true - at the moment, he lists a DRONE Diesel which he says has ball bearings (which the Mk. 2 had) but it's the plain bearing Mk. 1
Old 03-23-2014, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 74SEVEN7
That's not always true - at the moment, he lists a DRONE Diesel which he says has ball bearings (which the Mk. 2 had) but it's the plain bearing Mk. 1
Why would anyone want an old diesel like the Drone anyway, Bob?

It doesn't even have a compression screw!

:-)

On the other hand look at the postage charges for toys_tophobby's offerings.

Most reasonable, and amongst the best for international buyers offered on US ebay.
Old 03-23-2014, 12:52 AM
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Yeah, we'll probably never know for sure... but there are a couple of points that I find surprising.

The seller (Gaby, I've had several super engines from him) apparently assumes that as no size is marked on the engine, then it must be something unusual.
I would have thought that the reverse would be true, i.e. no marking = "standard" and any "special" size would be stamped (like the G15/19).

Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing an ST comp locking lever that wasn't black (OK, that's not very conclusive, but it's true).

Finally, I used to own an engine visually identical to this one (sold on eBay last year, to NZ) and mine was a 2.5 of course.
This engine is a very late G20/15 (mid-seventies), still being produced at a time when the G15 was already the serious competition engine for 10 years...
Hmmm, I'm doubtful, but I think we'll never know. I certainly wouldn't buy it on the evidence we have at the moment.

The error in the Drone advert, mentioned above, is probably due to using "copy and paste" and not checking, when trying to do a lot of descriptions quickly.

Last edited by brokenenglish; 03-23-2014 at 12:54 AM.
Old 03-23-2014, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by brokenenglish
Yeah, we'll probably never know for sure... but there are a couple of points that I find surprising.

The seller (Gaby, I've had several super engines from him) apparently assumes that as no size is marked on the engine, then it must be something unusual.
I would have thought that the reverse would be true, i.e. no marking = "standard" and any "special" size would be stamped (like the G15/19).

Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing an ST comp locking lever that wasn't black (OK, that's not very conclusive, but it's true).

Finally, I used to own an engine visually identical to this one (sold on eBay last year, to NZ) and mine was a 2.5 of course.
This engine is a very late G20/15 (mid-seventies), still being produced at a time when the G15 was already the serious competition engine for 10 years...
Hmmm, I'm doubtful, but I think we'll never know. I certainly wouldn't buy it on the evidence we have at the moment.

The error in the Drone advert, mentioned above, is probably due to using "copy and paste" and not checking, when trying to do a lot of descriptions quickly.


My assertion that the G20/15D was available right into the 80's is based on the advertisments for them in the backpages of the Aeromodeller during the era.

They were in demand (at least) for c/l combat. It's raining very heavily right now so I can't go down the shed and scan an ad. Maybe tomorrow.

This is what Ian Russell said about the G20 series glow engines in 2003.

"RE: SuperTigre G20/19"
In response to Reply # 0

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: dclite"][/TD]
[TD="class: dclite"] The G20/15, 19, and 23, are a series of wonderful engines all on the 15 c/case. Your 19 is probably a single ballrace engine, although it looks like two. If the prop thread is 1/4-28, it's a single BR. There are three types of c/case, easily distinguished by the date they appeared being written on the case, 1960, 1965, and 1970. I think 19's and 23's all had massive sub-piston induction, due to squeezing the larger engine into the smaller case. EXCEPT in the 1970 20/23 the sub-piston induction was eliminated by curving up the bottom edge of the exhaust port. I have never seen a 1970 20/19.
If using a muffler, either a 15 or 23 with no s.p.i. is the way to go. A muffled 19 with s.p.i. suffers great power loss with a muffler. Without muffler, they are all great. Don't be mislead by the old baffle piston layout. These motors are no slouches. In the 60's and 70's I used to T/R these (20/23) engines against the 29's, nearly always placing. On 30cc fuel, (1oz.=28cc?) we did the race (5 miles) non-stop at 94mph.
I reckon a muffled 23 with no s.p.i. is an excellent substitute for a Fox 35. With muffler about the same weight and possibly more power than a stock Fox. I have one of these engines lined up for a Larry Richards Baby T'brd! Guess I'll have to hold it back a bit, or use longer lines! Good luck, Ian R.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
This at least establishes that there was a glow G20/19.

Last edited by qazimoto; 03-23-2014 at 02:47 AM.
Old 03-23-2014, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by qazimoto
This at least establishes that there was a glow G20/19.
There's never been any doubt about that, I'm selling one on eBay right now, but it's a rare engine, the only one I've ever actually seen.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649

Last edited by brokenenglish; 03-23-2014 at 03:40 AM.
Old 03-23-2014, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by brokenenglish
There's never been any doubt about that, I'm selling one on eBay right now, but it's a rare engine, the only one I've ever actually seen.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649

Well some forum menbers don't even belive that there was a G20/15D R/C version.

I found the picture below of a G20/19 R/C glow in Peter Chinn's 1966 Global Engine Review from American Modeller.

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Old 03-23-2014, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by qazimoto
Well some forum menbers don't even belive that there was a G20/15D R/C version.
So what? That's their problem!

I was a bit surprised by that comment, so I went to where I thought I could find a reference, and found it immediately.
Aeromodeller, February 1971, page 101, Mick Wilshere's World Engines advert:
"Super Tigre G20/15 Diesel R/C - 12.00" (the plain carb version is 9.75), and there were very many similar adverts through the seventies.
Old 03-23-2014, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by brokenenglish
So what? That's their problem!

I was a bit surprised by that comment, so I went to where I thought I could find a reference, and found it immediately.
Aeromodeller, February 1971, page 101, Mick Wilshere's World Engines advert:
"Super Tigre G20/15 Diesel R/C - 12.00" (the plain carb version is 9.75), and there were very many similar adverts through the seventies.
Our American friends didn't necesarily read Aeromodeller.

The R/C G20/15D was available up to 1965 according to Chinn, but discontinued. Must have been reintroduced a few years later.

I've been through the AM index, combined engine tests, Google, and ads in some of my AM collection and can't find any other reference to the ST G20/19D.

It's a bit like the legendary G15 Diesel, very hard to pin down.

Guess I'll have to wait till something definitive turns up.
Old 03-23-2014, 05:58 AM
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Yeah, the G20/15D RC was still on sale "mid-seventies" 'cos I bought one!
IIRC Super Tigre started phasing out the G20 when the G15 was released, but the G15 Diesel was generally considered to be not as good as the older G20/15D so, after a period of hesitation, the G20/15D (and glow) became available again, plain carb and RC, particularly as, during the 70's, the 15 glow had become the favourite FAI combat engine in Europe.
I've had several G15 diesels (still have one), and I prefer the G20/15D, particularly the "1965" crankcase version.

I'm still doubtful about the engine on sale that started this thread, but it's just a sort of "gut feeling" on my part, nothing that I can substantiate or argue about!
Old 03-23-2014, 02:40 PM
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If you look at the crank in your ST G20-15 diesel, you will likely see it marked 15/19. One supposes the 19 used the same crank, and had two ball bearings, not one like the ST G20-23, which has one bearing and a 1/4 x 28 prop thread.
Old 04-12-2014, 01:47 PM
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Whilst agreeing with most of the comments above, I'm a little skeptical about the supposed G20/19 diesel-irrespective of whether it is standard or RC. G20/19 and G20/23 glows certainly-but I note that the rods on the 'oversized' versions tend to be 'shaved' at the bottom end to cope with the increased crank throw yet still achieve clearance within the case. I suspect that a diesel version, with its higher running stresses and rod loadings, might be too much for a 'shaved' conrod to cope with. This is based on observations of my own G15/19s-and an early (1950s) G20/19 glow like the one sold by brokenenglish above. I agree that the 19 glows are very thin on the ground-whether G20 or G15.......and I'm not yet convinced that a G20/19D exists..........

ChrisM
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:03 PM
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Moi non plus !
Old 04-12-2014, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by brokenenglish
Moi non plus !
C'est ce qu'ils ont dit propos de l'ornithorynque!
Old 04-13-2014, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by brokenenglish
There's never been any doubt about that, I'm selling one on eBay right now, but it's a rare engine, the only one I've ever actually seen.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649
I have the G20 .15 in that removable front housing version as well as a G21 .35 (rear BB, front bushing). I believe my .15 has non-metallic BB's.
If I remember correctly, that .15 was replaced by the "Jubilee" version, then in 1960 by another version. The last two had one-piece crank cases. I do not have a "Jubilee" but here are pictures of the 1960 glow and diesel G20 .15's:

George

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Last edited by gcb; 04-13-2014 at 08:30 AM.
Old 04-14-2014, 04:50 AM
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George, this one is also a G-21 but is a .46.This one had a butterfly over the exhaust port linked to the carb but a .40 sized Swing muffler bolted right on.
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Old 04-14-2014, 03:26 PM
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I have scoured old 'Aero-Modeller' and 'Model Aircraft' magazines from the 60's and 70's and have never seen a reference to a G20/19D.
Old 04-14-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by fiery
I have scoured old 'Aero-Modeller' and 'Model Aircraft' magazines from the 60's and 70's and have never seen a reference to a G20/19D.
As I said earlier I think there are structural limitations that would make it unlikely-the second point is '19' is a US class size limit-not a UK a European one-why would Super Tigre make a .19 diesel for a market in which diesels are hardly used (and certainly so in the era of the 1960s when the G20 was predominantly marketed. Even the G20/19 and G15/19 glows are fairly rare beasts.......and as for the supposed G20/19D RC that would make it rarer than rare............if it exists............

ChrisM
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ffkiwi
As I said earlier I think there are structural limitations that would make it unlikely-the second point is '19' is a US class size limit-not a UK a European one-why would Super Tigre make a .19 diesel for a market in which diesels are hardly used (and certainly so in the era of the 1960s when the G20 was predominantly marketed. Even the G20/19 and G15/19 glows are fairly rare beasts.......and as for the supposed G20/19D RC that would make it rarer than rare............if it exists............

ChrisM
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Mmm, I checked out my three G20/15D's yesterday. One is a 1960, and two are 1970 cases. Only one had 2.5 stamped under the exhaust.

It does seem unlikely that there was a G20/19D then, but not impossible.

Another unresolved Super Tigre issue is whether there ever was a factory batch of G15/15 Diesels as opposed to outside conversions. Engines that look like factory versions do turn up from time to time on ebay.

They're existance may just have not have made it into the modelling press.

A couple of other examples:

Back in the 80's I called into see Ivor F at his place at Doonside, as I was passing through on work business. He showed me a few glow Doonside Mills .75 engines out a batch he was making for collectors.

Another time I was talking to Stan Pilgrim of "motor boy" fame after most people had gone home from a St Ives Burford day. He was struggling to start a diesilized Taipan 15 FIRE Goldhead engine in a model. He'd only refurbished it that morning for the event. He said that it was one of a batch of 100 for collectors that Gordon Burford had made during the 1970's.

I'm sure that if either a Doonside Glow or a Burford Taipan .15 Goldhead diesel turned up on Ebay, then they'd be treated with suspicion as well.

As my old high school science teacher drummed into me, you can't prove a negative!

I'm just reserving judgement on the matter.

Ray

Edited to correct pre-breakfast grammatical errors. The ones left in are just normal. :-)

Last edited by qazimoto; 04-14-2014 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:15 PM
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[QUOTE=qazimoto;11783025
As my old high school science teacher drummed into me, you can't prove a negative!

I'm just reserving judgement on the matter.

Ray[/QUOTE]

Quite true Ray, and a quote that I remember back from my days in law forums was "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:01 PM
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G20 diesel R/C.
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:34 AM
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Derek, that's the way my old G-21 .46 was rigged up, I kept the bushing and the butterfly. I's a baffled engine so I guess it won't ever be a Diesel. My brother bought a 1963 Ford Falcon Sprint in Denver, Colo. and the G-21 .46 was in the trunk on about 12" of a broken off fuse. It was my first RC engine is about 1986.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 04-17-2014 at 03:36 AM.
Old 04-17-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Recycled Flyer
Quite true Ray, and a quote that I remember back from my days in law forums was "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."


and from a scientist in contrast to a lawyer: "and absence of evidence is NOT proof of existence....."

ChrisM
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