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Fuel Container Questions

Old 06-25-2014, 07:33 AM
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Question Fuel Container Questions

Q1) What is the best Glass Container (can you name a store, or at least a product such as "go buy a bottle of Old Duffers Bourbon that bottle is the bees knees!")?

Q2) What is the best Metal Container (same scenario: can you name a store, or at least a product such as "go buy a bottle of Jack Palmer Golf Ball Detergent that metal can is the cat's meow!")?

Q3) What is the best overall container? I like being able to see the fuel in the container but I don't like containers that turn into shrapnel when I use them for a spontaneous non-voluntary gravity test. You know, we've all done it - You just have to make sure that gravity is still working... So what is everyone using - and why do you like it?

Q4) What is the best lid gasket material? I may have a container or two but they probably don't seal well enough. Where can i buy a sheet of XYZ material, or some existing disks or ring-shaped parts, that won't melt in contact with the standard compression fuel components?

Thank you in advance to any and all respondents.

Paul
Old 06-29-2014, 08:01 AM
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i cant help much but i use a old crown acetone comtainer metal can with a metal lid seems to seal pretty well.

Sorry not much help
Old 06-29-2014, 03:17 PM
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The best glass container would be thick, dark glass with a lid that seals effectively.
A medicine bottle works well.
Old 07-01-2014, 03:47 AM
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Look up 'Winchester' bottles - I agree with Greg and a narrow opening seems to be of benefit as it limits evaporation.

The inevitable comment about glass being fragile when dropped never seems to eventuate.

Old 07-02-2014, 04:29 AM
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I was going to say the dark glass 'little brown jug' at first too, but for the ultimate, maybe a glass lined Thermos for the ether based fuels may be better if the fuel doesn't ruin the seal.
Old 07-02-2014, 01:55 PM
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Default storing and sealing diesel fuel containes

Paul,

I mix my own, and use a temporary catch bottle for the ether milked out of a can of John Deere starting ether. Other starting ether products are not suitable - they have other materials that don't do well in our diesels.

This will be more than you need but includes the goodies.

First trick is to find a spray can nozzle that fits the John Deere can, AND has a "straw' tip.

.... then get a jar like used with Planters' Peanuts. It has a nice lid with a seal that stands up to ether for at least a while. Find a spare lid for the jar.

..... punch a hole in one lid, large enough to fit the "straw."

... shake the JD, insert the straw and spray the contents into the jar. This limits loss of ether, which chills on the glass sides of the jar, vents off any propellant and doesn't spray flammables all over the place.

.... when I have enough for a quart or liter of fuel, I simply stop spraying. The remainder is safely stored in the JD can. It usually takes more than one can of JD to get enough ether for a liter or so...

... Seal the catch jar with the un-punctured lid until you're actually mixing your batch.

I mix into a 1000cc lab graduate - very simple; using cc or ml for percentages.

The batch goes directly into a metal screw top quart/liter can. Solder two copper tubes through the cap. One serves as vent; the other, with an extended tube to reach bottom, draws fuel out.

Seal with a U of neoprene tubing. Make sure you open the vent first. Opening the filler first will spray raw fuel on you and anything near you.

Seal the cap by wrapping a few turns of plumbers' Teflon tape around the threads before placing the cap on the can. (Someone on here mentioned a better material than plumbers' Teflon. I forget what that was. The Teflon serves me well enough.)

Keep the filled can out of direct sunlight or other high temperature exposure...

Last edited by Lou Crane; 07-02-2014 at 02:03 PM. Reason: phrasing..
Old 07-02-2014, 10:44 PM
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I used to have 2.5 litre dark glass winchester with a sturdy bakelite screw top. The screw cap had really effective nylon seal under the crown. It orginally was from a chemical supply house and was filled with reagent (GPR) grade di-ethyl ether. So it had to be 'the business'. It never leaked ether.

I used it for my diesel fuel storage for years.

Coming home one Summer afternoon after a great day at the field, I opened the door of my 4WD to collect my kit. The three-quarter full winchester rolled out and smashed on my concrete driveway. Pressurised fuel (from the heat of the car) sprayed everywhere. The smell in my front yard could best be described as diesel heaven. It lingered for weeks. I was so very glad there was not a spark.

It took many hours of scrubbing with a stiff bristle brush and grease remover to get the basket ball sized castor oil stain out.

Since then, I only use screw cap metal cans for diesel fuel storage.
Old 07-03-2014, 03:19 AM
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While all the aforementioned containers are without doubt the best. The 2 liter soda pop pet bottles also work very well for storing ether in. Alan Shing a well known team race man from Sydney Australia stored his ether this way. I bought some from him and marked the container to see if there was any loss. Over 2 years not a jot got through the seal of the standard cap of the last bottle to be opened.
Old 07-03-2014, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by raglafart
While all the aforementioned containers are without doubt the best. The 2 liter soda pop pet bottles also work very well for storing ether in. Alan Shing a well known team race man from Sydney Australia stored his ether this way. I bought some from him and marked the container to see if there was any loss. Over 2 years not a jot got through the seal of the standard cap of the last bottle to be opened.
John,
Presumably stored in a cool dark place??
If only for peace of mind.
Old 07-03-2014, 04:12 PM
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John

That is interesting. Received wisdom is that the ether molecules 'migrate' through any form of plastic over time. Carbox dioxide does. Left too long before consumption and your PET bottled carbonated beverage goes flat.

It seems PET is an exception for ether storage. 'Dark brown glass' coloured PET bottles could be a very safe and convenient storage vessel.
Old 07-03-2014, 05:18 PM
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I also use the standard chemical storage 2.5 litre dark glass Winchester bottles, and the plastic lids come with an effective nylon seal. Our Ether source insists on clean "return" bottles, so I occasionally buy new ones from the local bottle supplier. Last time, to make up the order to minimum value I got some one Litre "Winchesters" as well.

These are great, they mean I don't have to carry the big ones around when I go flying. I just mix a litre of fuel when I need it and it stays in the boot of the car with the minimal flying kit. I don't smell any Ether, it doesn't evaporate, and no one in the family complains. The small volume of fuel means that even the worst catastrophe isn't going to cause much angst.

I gave up on metal tins. I used a Castrol R30 tin for years but it developed a large rust "bloom" on the bottom which was contaminating the fuel. The quality of tin plated steel "tins" seems to have deteriorated sharply in recent years, so I wouldn't bother with them any more. The Acetone one Litre tins are convenient but still rust out rapidly.


Last year we had a serious heat wave, the temperature in my shed reached 44 Degrees Celsius. There was absolutely no smell of Ether indicating a leak in my stash.


Pic shows (L to R) R30 tin (full of R30 oil), One Litre "Winchester", 2.5 Litre Winchester.



I suspect that only the big bottle is a proper Winchester, but I don't know if the smaller one has a name.
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:15 PM
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I wouldn't advise PET bottles for mixed fuels and unless I'd been introduced to the idea by an acknowledged T/R guy as Alan was and wouldn't have thought to use them myself.
Have to say that it works with maybe some loss, but so small it's unnoticeable by eye over a long period. I had 3 of the 2 liter bottles and it was quite a while before I got round to the 3rd and last one.
Old 07-03-2014, 07:38 PM
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I purchased two of these one litre (?) metal cannisters at a C/L & F/F event at Maryborough (Qld) a couple of years ago. They were on sale at a trade display. Stated purpose was for model fuel storage.

I live near the sea. Unlike my other screw-cap cannisters so far they show no signs of rust. Being flat sided they won't roll if knocked over. The top and bottom plates have a golden sheen (not really apparent in the images). I opine they are finish treated with some agent or coating to prevent rust.

I still have a one litre screw cap bottle (like the one in Ray's photo) which orginally contained Nitro-Benzene .

It was old when I acquired it ... complete with just less than the full compliment of said chemical ... at age 13 from the Dad of a neighbour friend. The Dad worked at a Technical Institute and was a chemistry lecturer. He had access to things young modellers needed but could not afford. Amyl Nitrate among them.
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Last edited by fiery; 07-03-2014 at 11:36 PM.
Old 07-03-2014, 08:01 PM
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This may be the reason for the 'can rusting' issues in Australia. From the 'Justcans' web site home page:

"Just Cans imports Tinplate products from China. With the closure of BHP Bluescope Tinplate manufacturing in Port Kembla, Australia in May 2007, all New Zealand and Australian Tinplate supplies are imported from Asia."

http://www.justcans.biz/Drums.htm

I do not know where the can in the previous post was made, but so far ... it's all good.

Last edited by fiery; 07-03-2014 at 08:06 PM.
Old 07-03-2014, 09:24 PM
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A few years ago my old mate, Dave Curry gave me one or two four litre mower fuel tins of an Ether stash he'd had for about 10-15 or so years. I was a little dubious but started using it. Worked fine, and it's all gone now.

I suspect that there isn't really an Ether evaporation problem providing you just take normal safety procedures like those mentioned above.

Mostly it seems to be a North American phenomenon, so maybe it's caused by the Coriolis Force?.



;-)

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Old 07-05-2014, 12:57 AM
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The spun aluminium (probably made from aluminum in the states) water/camping fuel bottles as sold in camping stores seem to work so far. They have a good thick nylon? seal.

I have one that I have tipped the fuel remnants of a days flying in a couple of times, probably a total of 50 mls or so. Absolutely no tell tale ether smell until I open the lid when it gives a hiss as the pressure is released. The fuel starts and runs fine after approx six months of storage.

The disadvantage of course is that the level cannot be seen, but other than that they are (relatively) cheap and very robust.

Your results may vary, but so far it seems to work for me.

Dave H

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Old 07-05-2014, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by gerryndennis
The spun aluminium (probably made from aluminum in the states) water/camping fuel bottles as sold in camping stores seem to work so far. They have a good thick nylon? seal.

I have one that I have tipped the fuel remnants of a days flying in a couple of times, probably a total of 50 mls or so. Absolutely no tell tail ether smell until I open the lid when it gives a hiss as the pressure is released. The fuel starts and runs fine after approx six months of storage.

The disadvantage of course is that the level cannot be seen, but other than that they are (relatively) cheap and very robust.

Your results may vary, but so far it seems to work for me.

Dave H
My only concern would be whether the Aluminium (thanks for the recognition of the alternative spelling choice) has a lining on the inside that might react with the Ether. Water and Aluminium do react over time so it's quite likely that there is one to prevent corrosion. Aluminium Beer cans have such a lining.

Same with PET containers. Short term probably ok but glow fuel stored in them has been known to contaminate due possibly to the leaching of the plastic. Granted that we get our Kero in 4 Litre PET containers.

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Old 07-05-2014, 05:22 AM
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I used an aluminium drinks bottle until the silicon seal stopped.
Old 07-06-2014, 12:21 AM
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Is the Grolsh glass beer bottle still in vogue?

Old 07-06-2014, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Recycled Flyer
Is the Grolsh glass beer bottle still in vogue?


I'd forgotton about them. IIRC New South Wales c/l Racing identity John N was their most enthusiastic user. Tried 'em and they worked fine.

Out here on the edge of civilised society, they were a bit scarce. It's an inner city yuppie beer when all's said and done.

:-)
.
Old 07-06-2014, 02:02 AM
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I think they stopped using the "Yuppy" sealing system. Going to twist tops is of no earthly use to us!
Old 07-06-2014, 11:42 PM
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[QUOTE=raglafart;11834621...The 2 liter soda pop pet bottles also work very well for storing ether in.... .[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this idea. We don't drink much in the way of carbonated beverages. The last time I groped such bottles, the plastic was thin and flimsy. Was surprised today at the rock hard feel of the PET bottles.

The only complication for me may be adding tubes to the cap. I use two, as mentioned above, to avoid uncapping the container for fueling. I have converted screw-cap pill bottles for small benching fuel tanks using 1/8" OD copper tube with tight washers, stretched split ring lock washers, and slow setting J-B Weld. The only change in tanks used with diesel fuels is that the color of the metal filler seems to have leached out. These are not long storage tanks, so any porosity is not a factor. They hold muffler pressure.
Old 07-07-2014, 12:06 AM
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For fueling bottles as opposed to storage bottles I've had good success with the "Decor" brand sauce bottles that are sold here in Australia through Big W outlets. They come in 3 sizes, 1000 ml, 500 and I think 375 or 250.
I like the 1000 ones and use them as a base for my racing quick fill bottles for both diesel and glow, however, don't leave diesel fuel in the bottles, but glow fuel has no effect on the plastics of the bottle or cap.
I'll enclose a picture of one of the smaller valved fast fill bottles, though as I say I prefer the big 1 liter bottles as you get a better squeeze on them than the smaller ones.
I used to make a special plug in dual filter though one or two have become loose I suspect after diesel fuel has been left in them for a long period, though I've done this myself and had no issues so far. Seem the red plastic cap and spout tends to expand. Any way a good fuel bottle even without my fast fill additions if you can get them local.
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Old 07-07-2014, 01:37 AM
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Emptied brandy bottles are the go here.......Glass, metal screw cap, and a dark colour.
Gin bottles with metal screw caps seem okay also, but they are clear glass. Don't really know if that matters, as I've had diesel fuel in one of them for yonks and it's all A OK.
Old 08-07-2014, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by raglafart
For fueling bottles as opposed to storage bottles I've had good success with the "Decor" brand sauce bottles that are sold here in Australia through Big W outlets. They come in 3 sizes, 1000 ml, 500 and I think 375 or 250.
I like the 1000 ones and use them as a base for my racing quick fill bottles for both diesel and glow, however, don't leave diesel fuel in the bottles, but glow fuel has no effect on the plastics of the bottle or cap.
I'll enclose a picture of one of the smaller valved fast fill bottles, though as I say I prefer the big 1 liter bottles as you get a better squeeze on them than the smaller ones.
I used to make a special plug in dual filter though one or two have become loose I suspect after diesel fuel has been left in them for a long period, though I've done this myself and had no issues so far. Seem the red plastic cap and spout tends to expand. Any way a good fuel bottle even without my fast fill additions if you can get them local.

I hadn't seen this till someone pointed it out.

Well you're probably talking about mine that regularly has the Aluminium Alloy plug come loose. At no time have I ever left any sort of fuel in any sort of a plastic squeeze bottle for an extended time. .

I'd say that ultimately the red plastic lids aren't really fuel or solvent resistant, and I've used mine more than others.

:-(

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