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need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Old 12-22-2005, 01:17 AM
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greasybenz
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Default need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

My friend has a nitro hpi rs4 rtr. He blew the motor and i want to buy the car from him and drop a diesel engine in it to test my bio-diesel batches. His motor is a .15 engine can this be swapped with any diesel engine in paticular?

thanks in advance!!!!
Old 12-22-2005, 09:05 PM
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greasybenz
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

anyone anyone???
Old 12-23-2005, 03:30 PM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Hello; First of all, it sounds like you are new to diesels, diesel fuel is kerosene, ether, and oil for lubrication. It isn't like the diesel you buy at the gas station. If you are thinking of converting an existing diesel to run on a "bio-friendly" fuel, you will be the first one that I have heard of. Secondly, I've never seen a diesel in a car/truck/model. I think that starting would be a problem, and you would need a flywheel of some kind to keep it running. I suppose it could be done, but why has no one else tired it?

Nobody said that it couldn't be done, but that's how things evolve, Good luck.
Old 12-28-2005, 03:17 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Ok kerosene is the same exact thing as diesel #1 and jet fuel. diesel #2 (what they sell at the pump)is different yes because it contains cetane and cetane is what k1 (kerosene) diesel #1 and jet fuel are missing. having said that bio diesel is just like K1 diesel #1 and jet fuel its missing those cetane levels so you drop 5% of your mpg's and loose some power compared to using diesel #2.

I fully understand all of this im a diesel enthusiest. So ive been making some small batches of bio diesel in my kitchen and i dont have enough to fuel up my mercedes or my VW tdi so thats why i was looking into a rc car to use the fuel on. But if having to buy a airplance rc with a diesel is the only choice then i guess im stuck!
Old 12-28-2005, 07:22 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Cetane is a specific hydrocarbon that is used as a laboratory standard against which diesel fuel is compared, a reference fuel in other words. Diesel can have a high cetane rating without containing any actual cetane.
Old 12-28-2005, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

A model diesel will not help you with this. They do not operate on the same principles. Further more please study up on fuels. Kerosene is not the same as pump diesel. Fuel grades are required to meet specific properties.
Old 12-28-2005, 10:48 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Since he is experimenting with Bio Diesel fuel, a Diesel engine is the only thing that will help him. I have experimented with it also and can't get it to work very well, maybe he can.
Old 12-29-2005, 01:54 AM
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greasybenz
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Well ive completed an "appleseed" bio-diesel processor (easier to make then in the kitchen) and have made about 30 gallons of biofuel. Ive washed it and is ready to be used. I would easily dump it in my mercedes since its my beater but my fuel lines are old rubber lines and they will crack because the bio-d is a good solvent.

Ive been reading the book "from the fryer to the fuel tank" by joshua tickell, and he wrote about how to make biodiesel and he tested his final fuel on a small RC diesel airplane.

And as for the kerosene, it is the same as diesel #1 its even said in tickells book that diesel #1, kerosene (k1), and jet fuel are the same, here is some proof.

http://www.flashoffroad.com/Diesel/D...iesel_fuel.htm
http://www.ssbtractor.com/wwwboard/v...nmar&msg=11111
http://www.brownoil.com/msdskerosene.htm

Ive ran kerosene in my mercedes diesel before because it was cheaper then diesel #2 at one truck stop.


I guess ill just have to look into diesel airplane RC's thanks for the help guys.
Old 12-30-2005, 01:51 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

greasybenz

Back to your original question. Yes you can get a diesel for the truck. I would suggest contacting Davis Diesel for an engine and a conversion head. I would say that a .10 should prove to be sufficient. Remember, when you convert to diesel, you pick up about 1/3 more torque over a glow of the same size.

As far as the bio diesel goes. At one time here there was a thread that I posted in, talking to a guy that has run a plane on bio diesel. I don't know if it is still here, I have been gone for almost a year. Search my posts, you might get lucky.

Understand that models do NOT use a true diesel, like you would find in a car, truck etc. They require an additive containing lots of either, Castro oil, and amyl nitrate. Here is the reason why. (if you already know, please bear with me for the benefit of those reading that don't)

A true diesel, in a car, truck, has no ignition to fire the fuel. Also, the fuel is not mixed with air until it is in the cylinder. Plain air is draw en into the cylinder to be compressed on the compression stroke. When ever you compress air rapidly you will create heat. The more you compress, and the faster you compress, the more heat you will get. At top dead center (TDC) the heat of the air in the cylinder is well above the flash point of the diesel fuel. Fuel is injected into the cylinder in a fine mist and immediately burns, creating power.

Now lets talk about the model engine.
First, the model engine is a 2 cycle engine. It also uses a carburetor to mix fuel and air. There is no way you will be able to develop enough compression to generate the heat needed to burn Kerosene by its self in a models engine without blowing it up, it just won't handle it. So we CHEAT!! This is how the model engine runs. The fuel is a mix of about 50% Kerosene (In this case BIO-DIESEL), 30% liquid ether, 20% Castro oil and a pinch of Amyl Nitrate. As stated we mix our fuel, and air in a carburetor, then the air/fuel is draw en the cylinder. In the cylinder head there is a contra piston, that can be adjusted by a screw that is in place of a glow plug. This contrapistion allows you to adjust the amount of compression the engine has. Like I said before you cannot get the heat to burn Kerosene, BUT YOU CAN GET THE HEAT YOU NEED TO BURN ETHER!!!!! The trick is to adjust the contra piston, so as when the engine rolls over TDC you have generated just enough compression to get just enough heat to fire the Amyl nitrate, which will get the ether burning which will get the Kerosene burning, get it!!! The Amyl nitrate is the match, the Ether is the lighter fluid, the kerosene is the charcoal in the barbecue.

So back to the question you had. Yes you can run a model diesel on BIO-DIESEL. I would get the engine from Davis, along with the conversion head, and a half gallon of his fuel mix, which is the ether, amyl, and Castro, all ready to go. You just have to mix it with the BIO in equal parts, and dump it in.

I hope this helped and here is Davis Diesels web site http://www.davisdieseldevelopment.com/

Dave
no not related to davis
Old 12-30-2005, 08:20 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Dave, you may have been talking to me, I tried the Bio thing, I could get engines to run pretty well on it but there was always a problem with the compression adjustment. When the compression was high enough for a good idle it was too high at full throttle. When it was lowered for smooth full throttle running it would barely run below half throttle. I have some stuff here called Gadget Fuel I got from RedMax that has the ether castor and enhancer in a quart can, I'll get the %s some time today and post them here.
Old 12-31-2005, 12:57 AM
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Diesel Dave-RCU
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

I am not sure if I was talking to you or not. The person I was talking to was also mixing his own ether/oil mix for his fuel tests.

Hobbsy, after reading your results a few times, I think the problem you are having is not even fuel related. I think you might not have the carb mixtures and head adjusted incorrectly, or you are trying to do this with an old engine that you might have converted to diesel, and the cylinder sleeve is bad.

My 8 years experience with them tells me to lean toward the bad sleeve. If you are using a conversion engine, and your chrome plating on the cylinder wall flakes off it will overheat at full throttle, and cause it to have too much compression. The natural thing to do would be to turn down the compression at full throttle, but then it won't run at idle.

If this is an old engine, or if it has been ever overheated, especially on glow fuel, get a new engine, and try it on a kerosene based fuel to set it up, and take a few readings, so you have a benchmark for the BIO fuel.

I fly several planes with a couple of different conversions on them. For an O.S. conversion engine, these settings will get you in the ballpark FOR A PLANE ENGINE!!! set the head screw to about 1 1/4 turn out. set the fuel mixture to 1/2 of what was used for the engine running on glow fuel. Open the air bleed screw, or lean out the idle quite a bit, and I do mean a lot. Once the engine is set, it should run well at any throttle setting without adjustment. Unless there is a severe temperature change in the weather, like better than 20 degrees, you should not have to adjust it again.

I have an ultra sport 40, with a converted O.S. 61 FX for power. I turn a 12x8 APC prop at 10500 rpm. I get about 20 minutes out of 10 ounces of fuel, and haven't had to adjust it for the past 2 years of flying.

Dave
Old 12-31-2005, 08:45 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Daver, it is a Fox .74 ABC that still runs great on Davis ball bearing fuel, it turns a Graupner 12x8 three blade at 9,000. This engine had about 2 hours on it as a glow engine. On mentioning the airbleed carbs, two of my favorite conversions are my OS LA .46 and .65, I believe the simple porting scheme in the LA's make them very good Diesel conversion choices. When breaking them in on glow the airbleed screw on both was set at halfway across the hole, now both are about 75% open.
Old 01-15-2006, 05:27 AM
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greasybenz
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

ORIGINAL: Diesel Dave-RCU

greasybenz

Back to your original question. Yes you can get a diesel for the truck. I would suggest contacting Davis Diesel for an engine and a conversion head. I would say that a .10 should prove to be sufficient. Remember, when you convert to diesel, you pick up about 1/3 more torque over a glow of the same size.

As far as the bio diesel goes. At one time here there was a thread that I posted in, talking to a guy that has run a plane on bio diesel. I don't know if it is still here, I have been gone for almost a year. Search my posts, you might get lucky.

Understand that models do NOT use a true diesel, like you would find in a car, truck etc. They require an additive containing lots of either, Castro oil, and amyl nitrate. Here is the reason why. (if you already know, please bear with me for the benefit of those reading that don't)

A true diesel, in a car, truck, has no ignition to fire the fuel. Also, the fuel is not mixed with air until it is in the cylinder. Plain air is draw en into the cylinder to be compressed on the compression stroke. When ever you compress air rapidly you will create heat. The more you compress, and the faster you compress, the more heat you will get. At top dead center (TDC) the heat of the air in the cylinder is well above the flash point of the diesel fuel. Fuel is injected into the cylinder in a fine mist and immediately burns, creating power.

Now lets talk about the model engine.
First, the model engine is a 2 cycle engine. It also uses a carburetor to mix fuel and air. There is no way you will be able to develop enough compression to generate the heat needed to burn Kerosene by its self in a models engine without blowing it up, it just won't handle it. So we CHEAT!! This is how the model engine runs. The fuel is a mix of about 50% Kerosene (In this case BIO-DIESEL), 30% liquid ether, 20% Castro oil and a pinch of Amyl Nitrate. As stated we mix our fuel, and air in a carburetor, then the air/fuel is draw en the cylinder. In the cylinder head there is a contra piston, that can be adjusted by a screw that is in place of a glow plug. This contrapistion allows you to adjust the amount of compression the engine has. Like I said before you cannot get the heat to burn Kerosene, BUT YOU CAN GET THE HEAT YOU NEED TO BURN ETHER!!!!! The trick is to adjust the contra piston, so as when the engine rolls over TDC you have generated just enough compression to get just enough heat to fire the Amyl nitrate, which will get the ether burning which will get the Kerosene burning, get it!!! The Amyl nitrate is the match, the Ether is the lighter fluid, the kerosene is the charcoal in the barbecue.

So back to the question you had. Yes you can run a model diesel on BIO-DIESEL. I would get the engine from Davis, along with the conversion head, and a half gallon of his fuel mix, which is the ether, amyl, and Castro, all ready to go. You just have to mix it with the BIO in equal parts, and dump it in.

I hope this helped and here is Davis Diesels web site http://www.davisdieseldevelopment.com/

Dave
no not related to davis

thanks dave ill be looking into those engines as soon as i can! i so badly need that engine in the rc to test the bioD and ill make sure to mix it as you said, thanks again!
Old 02-02-2006, 06:31 PM
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Rossi599
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Hey, i read your message on mising the diesel for R/C engines and i was just wondering if you absolutely need the amyl nitrate and if so where do i get it. By mixing my own diesel about how much would i save, do you know?


Thanks
Old 02-02-2006, 11:21 PM
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Diesel Dave-RCU
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

The Amyl nitrate is only about 2% of the mix. I have heard that it is not absolutely needed, but it does help. I have no idea where you can get it, and for the record, good luck on finding the liquid ether. I know that it can still be bought by the average person in Europe, but not in the States. Unless you are planning to mix your own Bio Diesel, I feel there is no real savings in making your own mix for plain old Kerosene, VS just buying the ready to go stuff from Davis, or Dr. Diesel.
Old 02-02-2006, 11:31 PM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

I wouldn't want any liquid amyl nitrate in my house. People may look at you funny when you ask about it?

It is used as a hallucinogen in "street" situations. It is sold in little ampules. They look like ammonia ampules. It has a lot of Ebonics type nick names.

Enjoy,

Jim
Old 02-03-2006, 10:51 PM
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Diesel Dave-RCU
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Maybe that is why I find running these engines so "enjoyable".

Dave
Old 10-04-2010, 03:09 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

i have a fewold diesel engine here

you may have ithem(3 or 4 peaces)for 5 dollar (ex shipping)
one problem conrod is snapped and there is no flywheel/clutch

if yo want it
els i have a good/working boat diesel that i could sell you
Old 10-04-2010, 04:18 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

ORIGINAL: Rossi599

Hey, i read your message on mising the diesel for R/C engines and i was just wondering if you absolutely need the amyl nitrate and if so where do i get it. By mixing my own diesel about how much would i save, do you know?


Thanks
You can use Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide in place of amyl nitrate.
Old 11-11-2010, 03:46 PM
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DieselFumes
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

Please see this thread on the dangers of MEK and MEKP.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2795299/tm.htm

I am only pointing to what others have posted.
But, they seem pretty adamant that these are dangerous chemicals
Old 11-11-2010, 07:32 PM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

This topic has been discussed in the model forums many times before. This is how I understand it.

Amyl Nitrate and Amyl Nitrite were used as model diesel fuel ignition improvers in the 1950-60's before they were made a restricted substance. They did have some important medical uses when heart stimulation was required. The illicit stuff available is used for the same purpose in recreational circumstances. They are not hallucinogens. They can cause heart problems and even death to a user in poor health.

The "Amyl Nitrate" available from at least one North American model diesel source is I believe normal truck diesel Cetone booster.

The Amsoil Cetane booster is perfectly acceptable for use as a replacement for Amyl Nitrate (AN). Amsoil, I also believe is close to 100% 2-ethyl hexyl nitrate. In fact the AN has no real advantage over it or the other choice, Iso Propyl Nitrate (IPN).

The latter is available from chemical suppliers and may have a slight edge in the older style diesels for racing. It is however much more expensive than Amsoil and may be slightly inferior in modern engines.

To sum up, Amyl Nitrate has no advantages over it's modern substitutes.

Ray
Old 11-11-2010, 07:50 PM
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p51Dpony
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

firstly, I'm at work right now so if I cut off mid-sentence its because I had to go do something. 

Diesels are fun and totally different when tuning, over the years I've had a few mvvs diesel (.15 and .60) and several os engines that were run w/ davis diesel heads.  I had an os .32 in a raptor .30 heli for a long time and it ran great, more reliable than the glow counterpart.  The heli set up is similiar to a lot of car set ups w/ a clutch and essentially a pinion output turning either a big gear or belt-pulley.  the heli was great.  Here's my diesel pointers:
1.  start w/ a good engine.  diesels use higher compression and a weak engine might break, I never broke one but a friend did break the connecting rod in his os .40... not sure which engine it was.  Most car engines have above-average engineering so this shouldn't be a prob.
engine shouldn't be an old worn out one either.
2.  I always used the 'davis diesel' fuel and if it was an old jug most of the ether was gone and the engine did not run near so good as a fresh fuel batch.  -this may be an issue w/ biodiesel.  Maybe if you added ether for the model engine it would behave better, you'll have to see what happens but I've always hate having two unkowns in an experiment both the fuel and the fact you're new to diesels operating issues makes two unknowns.  If you want to be scientific get it running w/ davis diesel fuel first to know what the baseline is, then start experimenting w the biofuel.
3.  the carb on the diesel engine will give max power at about 60-70% open, a full open carb on diesel only makes engine skip and die, you need to program this with your throttle servo travel adjustment or do it mechanically.
4.  Mr Davis Diesel is a talker, if you call him up be ready to listen for awhile.  Another thing he always pushes for maximum power but I always tuned for cool running and reliability which can be done pretty good w a diesel.  DONT go for max power (more compression) until motors broken in because mine always overheated if I went too far too fast.
5.  If you drive to the field w your starter box in you car.... PUT THE WINDOWS DOWN or the ether will put you so sleep while you drive, if you wake up at all it will be in the ditch with your underwear on backwards...
6.  vent the exhause away from vehicle as far as reasonable because the oily black exhaust residue will NEVER COME OFF without a lot of work.  My white monokote plane had black stripe under one wing permanently..[8D]

have fun.
Old 11-11-2010, 10:06 PM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

"My white monokote plane had black stripe under one wing permanently .. "

Welcome to the oily rag society!
Old 11-15-2010, 06:54 AM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!

I had to do a double take when I saw how early on this thread was started. Back in the fall of 2006 I got a Norvel .15 to run on pure, B100 Biodiesel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgxIywcu7UQ There was no ether, nor kerosene, not even oil in the mix. Only 2% Amsoil Cetane Booster was added.

As can be seen, the run is strong and steady. BUT, any deviation, such as throttling, would threaten the run. It would take a lot of anguished pleading to Zeus before the engine would clear its throat and continue to make the music you hear in this video.

I'm convinced, as has been pointed out, that atomization of the fuel is the culprit. Neither kerosene and especially not BD, will vapourize easily. Ether is very volatile and serves that purpose well. But we want a virtual, one component fuel. One way to achieve that is to pre-heat the fuel as it enters the carburetor. Then, with the heat of the running engine, further vapourization may take place.

The result of running pure, B100 to the engine, has been premature wear in the crank to case fit. MUCH compression is needed to run B100 and with the many attempts to start the engine we now have a lot of slop n the crank to case fit. We will, going forward, use a ball bearinged, Norvel .15 utilizing the more robust and bronze bushed, Enya rod.
Old 11-15-2010, 05:52 PM
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Default RE: need help with diesel rc engine!! help asap!!


ORIGINAL: AndyW

I had to do a double take when I saw how early on this thread was started. Back in the fall of 2006 I got a Norvel .15 to run on pure, B100 Biodiesel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgxIywcu7UQ There was no ether, nor kerosene, not even oil in the mix. Only 2% Amsoil Cetane Booster was added.

As can be seen, the run is strong and steady. BUT, any deviation, such as throttling, would threaten the run. It would take a lot of anguished pleading to Zeus before the engine would clear its throat and continue to make the music you hear in this video.

I'm convinced, as has been pointed out, that atomization of the fuel is the culprit. Neither kerosene and especially not BD, will vapourize easily. Ether is very volatile and serves that purpose well. But we want a virtual, one component fuel. One way to achieve that is to pre-heat the fuel as it enters the carburetor. Then, with the heat of the running engine, further vapourization may take place.

The result of running pure, B100 to the engine, has been premature wear in the crank to case fit. MUCH compression is needed to run B100 and with the many attempts to start the engine we now have a lot of slop n the crank to case fit. We will, going forward, use a ball bearinged, Norvel .15 utilizing the more robust and bronze bushed, Enya rod.
Andy, so I am assuming that you intend to run the intake tract close to the heat of the exhaust to transfer that heat and so increase the atomisation of the fuel?
(Or more easily run the exhaust plumbing around the intake as a preheat manifold.)

Cheers.

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