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diesel finally on the way??

Old 06-12-2008, 08:55 PM
  #26  
Jim8ightT
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??


ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Jim,

Don't worry about a loss of top end. A diesel spinning a small prop (low load) will sometimes out rev a glow. Or if that doesn't work well in a car/truck, you could always experiment with gearing. I'm sure that Davis has this all sorted out. He knows his stuff.
thank you

the vid was nice to so you can run on bio wich is nice

I think that this will be the future with the way the oil market is going plus nitro is "imo" overrated for glow engines. from what i have learned I would like to see more use of it in future models
Old 06-12-2008, 09:09 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Hi Jim,

BioDiesel isn't practical yet, but you never know.
Old 06-12-2008, 09:25 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

I haven't posted here in a long time. There are good reasons but I have to clear some things up before things get silly around here.

Nobody cares about the cost of their model fuel. If they did, everyone would buy a four stroke. Fuel efficiency is superb, but alas initial cost of the engine is high and since nobody tracks fuel usage, they don't know they save money that way.

Diesels are not going to be the next fad. Not until someone figures out how to make them as easy to use as glow, with a fuel that doesn't go bad.

We did a lot of experimenting with alternate fuels. Nothing is remotely acceptable other than formulas with reduced ether content. No model diesels run on biodiesel, yet.

If you think there will be a LiPo "shortage" then, you should probably go back to NiCd, since nobody uses them they must be almost free.

I agree we need new blood in diesel suppliers, but even 50% of the tiny market share is still nothing.

Good luck. And don't expect diesel to be front page news on MAN next month.
Old 06-12-2008, 11:42 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

I suspect that we modelers sometimes lose sight of the fact that our Diesels aren't true Diesels, any more than our glow engines are true spark/gasoline/petrol engines. They are animals of a breed apart. While our model Diesels appear to share similar characteristics to true Diesels, they are not.


Ed Cregger
Old 06-13-2008, 02:19 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??


ORIGINAL: SGC

freeair,
The John Deer starting fluid is available here in Toowoomba- I just bought another 10 cans last week, if you really want to fly your diesels then check your local JD agent for starting fluid.
Stewart
Stewart, thanks for this info. could you please tell me what this starting fluid is made up of ? like is it straight ether ? thanks.
Old 06-13-2008, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Hi Greg,

For me, it's the journey not the destination. Imagine a teleportation machine. No fun in that. No scenery to watch go by, no interaction with fellow passengers, no applause when the wheels touch down, no clickety clack to put you to sleep on a cross-country rail trip. No adventure, no fun.

All of us here have a fascination for the machine. Inert bits of metal of various sorts. Shape those bits in the right way, assemble them, feed them, give them the breath of life and watch them perform. My neighbours tell me I act like the mad scientist on RobotChicken. It's aliiiive! It's aliiive!

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Old 06-13-2008, 10:23 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

What makes John Deere starting fluid desireable as an ether source is that they print right on the can, that it's guaranteed, 80% ether. The balance is unknown to me but I treat that as a kerosene component. But even then, when I mix, I just treat it as straight ether. Say 40% ether and really, it's 32% but that's close enough. A true percentage would be 50% of the spray yielding an accurate 40% in the mix. Or thereabouts.
Old 06-13-2008, 10:40 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

What ever the 20% is,its a gas maybe the propellant (Heptane??) when you spray it on a piece of white paper there is no oil spot or any type of residue after it evaporates
some of the other ether starting spray use some sort of liquid hydrocarbon hyped as upper cylinder lube just a way to make it cheaper for them to cut down the ether martin
Old 06-13-2008, 01:39 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

A while back, someone posted the MSDS for John Deere Starting fluid.

Was that you, Martin?

Thanks to whomever, anyway...

There was mention of 1 oz (mass not volume) of Butane dissolved in the di-Ethyl ether. I've had a bit of trouble for the first day or so after mixing fuel using the JohnD - apparently until the dissolved Butane gasses out... After that, works just fine.
Old 06-13-2008, 02:20 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Lou, I posted the MSDS. If you care to look at it 80% ether is really more like 90-99% once you let the propellant out. These sorts of details is what makes the adventure an adventure rather than a productive experiment. Not checking out and following through on details will lead nowhere and take forever to get there.

Every time the idea of new fuels comes up for diesels I have to make the point that nothing we do as modelers is ground breaking. All of the experiments and data exists. Somebody has been there and done that, and has the tee shirt and patent to prove it. Somebody who cares about model engines needs to apply it.
Old 06-13-2008, 02:35 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Thanks Greg,

That explains why we're all having so much luck using JD ether. And that might explain why many of us are able to run and fly diesel engines when otherwise it would be very difficult to do so due to the unavailability of fuel from a local source.

No harm in going over old ground, not all of us have been there, done that. Some of us just dive in and have fun.

Better atomization seems to be a big factor in diesel operation. Methanol and nitro evaporate and atomize easily. Not so kerosene and especially not so BioDiesel. I have an idea that might improve atomization for both. That might even help to reduce the percentage of ether required.
Old 06-13-2008, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Greg did not look up the MSDS specs but I do remember the posts, side port entry of the charge can not achieve the fine atomization of a full size injected diesel
even the old injection system at 1550 to 2000 psi did a pretty good job, but you still had the loud diesel rattle. with the new electronic injection system pushing better than 15000 PSI
you get a very fine mist and I guess a very smooth flame front just listen to an old cummins vs a new one my 2006 cummins is super quiet in comparison I guess our mixture is "gravel size" compared to that. I did try a mix just by subing the kero with #2 low sulfur the smell was greatly reduced but did have some soot and carbon engine did run ok
Mr Davis has suggested adding some lamp oil or candle fragrance for those who find the odor not to their liking to our traditional mixs commerica,l or home brew
For the new folks if you are getting lots of smoke and black oil out the exhaust you are too rich over compressed or both/ most of mine have a light grey exhaust and a very lght coloe oil out the stack no more than a 4 strk glow

If you look at his truck conversions on u tube 3.3 traxxax and 4.6 HPI very clean running
The bottom line is we do get more power and better fuel economy and lower operating temps

this may be redundant but some may not have seen the previous posts by lot of you guys had on here

martin
Old 06-13-2008, 03:33 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Thanks to Greg, I ventured to have a look at JD's starter fluid MSDS. I found the company that provides the fluid to John Deere.

Company Technical Chemical Company
Technical Chemical Company/TCC
Contact Name Glori Wilcoxon
City Cleburne
State / Province Texas
Country United States
Phone (800) 527-0885 x
Email [email protected]
Web http://www.technicalchemical.com

A toll free number is provided so I called. Glori listened with amusement to my query but she understood fully what we were doing.

According to her, the fluid they provide JD is, by percentage,

83.59 % ether
.68 % oil
9.7 % propane/butane blend
6% carbon dioxide.

She explained that the C02 evaporates virtually instantly no matter what method you use to evacuate the can. However, the butane/propane blend will stay in solution for some time, especially if you freeze the can.

I take an 8 ounce jar and punch a small hole in the lid. Then I replace the original spray button with one that uses a tube, I think that's from WD40. Just spray into the jar through the hole in the lid and that guarantees that virtually all of the other 20% is evaporated off. She confirmed that this was a good strategy.

Meanwhile the MSDS lists the main ingredient as 1,1-Oxybisethane. So I asked her about that. Well, even she was taken aback a bit but after a few minutes on hold she told me that the number under that word, 60-29-7 is the CAS number. This is a number assigned to every chemical that lists all the names given to a particular chemical. So I looked it up.

Here, http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/E2340.htm

We find,

1. Product Identification
Synonyms: Ether; ether,anhydrous; Diethyl ether; 1,1'Oxybisethane;ethyl oxide; diethyl oxide; Ethyl ether anhydrous;
CAS No.: 60-29-7
Molecular Weight: 74.12
Chemical Formula: C2H5OC2H5
Product Codes:
J.T. Baker: 9238, 9244, 9246, 9248, 9250
Mallinckrodt: 0848

Further, she advised that the best site for information on chemistry is, www.chemfinder.com

So I looked up ether and got this,

http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com/result.asp

Greg is right. Not doing a thorough job in your research and then passing off mis-information doesn't take us to where we want to be. Thanks Greg.




Old 06-13-2008, 03:49 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Martin,

Your right, no way that our engines atomize our fuel as well as "real" diesel engines. However, and I'm talking conversions (which hold their own), porting design has been optimized for glow fuel. I'm just wondering if redesigning the porting of our glow conversions might not yield some interesting results.

That's where the Norvels come in. As the pistons are nickle plated, you can use them in your engine of choice but make a new cylinder out of aluminum and anodize it. It won't be hard anodized to the quality of a Norvel but it'll function well enough for the experiment. Pictured is the adaptation of a Norvel .15 cylinder into an OS .10. I just need to make a duplicate but with changes to the porting design to see if that would help. I have to find the right grade of aluminum though.

I used 6061 to make some pistons and then I anodized them. I used a lap with diamond paste and got a good result. The engine ran real well inside a chromed brass cylinder but as it ran, it sagged and slowed down. I built in some decent pinch that, when hot, became extremely tight. So tight that I could barely turn it over. As the engine cooled, it regained it's normal fit. So many times I've read that ABC works because the brass expands more than aluminum with heat. Not so with all grades of aluminum.

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Old 06-14-2008, 04:16 AM
  #40  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??



Sorry to have to burst your bubble, guys.

As much as I would like to see model Diesels 'taking off' and becoming mainstream; this does not seem to be happening...

It is continuing as a 'team-race only' item and even with Bob Davis' ingenuous introduction of the conversion head, in the early '80s, then featured on MAN magazine; and proven to provide higher torque, to use less fuel and to emit lower noise, compared to its glow counterpart; Diesel users remain a cult of some sort.

Fuel (goo, smell, cost, availability, Etc.) is only one of its drawbacks...


And Martin, I don't see Chinese Li-Po production fading away.
In fact, The Li-Po+brushless motor combo has become much safer than before and as already 'exposed' in the Glow Engines forum, it is eating away very heavily from internal combustion engines.


A beginning modeler is now about 5 times more likely to buy a 'newfangled' electric combo, than he is to buy a glow engine...

In comparison to Diesels, this modeler is ~1,000 times as likely to buy electric.


With a ".46 size" electric set (a motor, an ESC, two Li-Po packs and a balanced-charger) totaling ~$170 from HK/China; and no fuel expenses, no mess, no Windex, not rags, no starter, much simpler field box, no noise and no adjustments/starting... Can anyone blame them?

This is the 'Plug-N-Play' age...


There are many die hards lurking in the pages of this forum (myself included - I would never miss a chance to play with a Diesel...), but looking at it realistically, a loosing battle is being fought...

I find it hard to get more people interested.
Old 06-14-2008, 05:38 AM
  #41  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

You're right Dar,

I ran into a piece in one of the mags where Jason Shulman took out an electric pattern ship at one of the World Championships not long ago. It was regarded as a publicity stunt by the organizers and pilots. Post Jason's first flight, that all changed. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone competing in this event or any other (except Dave Platt in scale) using a diesel engine.

But that's just fine. At one time, pre Internet, those of us with niche interests might have lost interest or ran into stone walls with problems. I'd bet that exposure on the Internet to our shenanigans has attracted SOME new followers. PAW is doing great business and Davis's business has exploded.

And I'll bet that many beginners that started with electric, once they get the bug, will venture to try other plane motivators. Just a smidgeon of those might even wonder, why diesel ? ,,, and try it to find out.

Following up on improved atomization, here's a clip from Tanaka, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pj8Kbwk424&NR=1 describing how they reduced emissions by atomizing the fuel better along with a catalytic converter in the muffler. Going to have to see exactly how they did that. That may improve the performance in my own Tanaka, diesel conversion. Neat.
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:14 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Diesel finally on the way ? Sorry Martin but the answer is definitely no!

I reckon the future is electric and petrol powered. Electric power is becoming cheaper and cheaper. There seems to be a growing interest in petrol... now there's economy even compared to how much a model diesel uses.

Lipos unobtainable from China ? No way. The better regarded cheap brands are sometimes difficult to get hold of as they sell so quickly, current favourites appear to be Loong Max and Zippy. I use Loong Max and they are very good, and also very cheap. Batteries, motors, Esc's are very cheap vis Hong Kong and some brands have established a good reputation for quality and reliability.

There is something to do with China Airlines. It appears that they are not transporting Lipos by air during the Olympic Games, otherwise they are readily available.

Nitro shortage ? Don't know, haven't seen anything about that and the price of glow fuel here in the U.K is steady while diesel is steadily getting dearer.

Andy...
Bio-Fuel... if you are going to try it again then try heating it by one of the means you mentioned in your post. There was a guy on U.K T.V. recently who bought an old diesel Mercedes. He used a baby bottle warmer around the fuel filter and some other heater, somewhere in the fuel system and was running on straight vegetable oil. He was filtering used cooking oil through a 5 micron filter prior to use. he has done 9,000 miles without problems. There is a company over here (probably more than one) who do conversions for modern diesel cars (turbo, intercooled,etc) so they will run on straight vegetable oil... no processing of the oil at all. Basically... it is heaters for the fuel system and another small fuel tank. The small tank is to hold normal diesel fuel. The car's original tank is filled with the vegetable oil. The car is started and run untill warm on diesel and then is switched straight onto ordinary cooking oil from the main tank. They recommend... 2 minutes before stopping the engine switch back to normal diesel fuel. This enables the car to start easily next time. They reckon the cooking oil is some 5 times more viscous than diesel oil and that is the ONLY problem with using the stuff. Heat it to get it thinner and away you go.

As stated by Greg... most people coming into the hobby now will go electric. Electric power is becoming so cheap and is certainly viable up to .40 size, very large setups can get very expensive. Four stroke is great for quietness and economy,but, there is a very expensive lump of metal up at the impact end ! Diesel... very few are going to be attracted down this route. Petrol... is rapidly becoming very convincing, especially for large models. Turbines... oh if only I had the money !

More and more electric power is spreading into all facets of the hobby here. Having finally ventured into it I can see why. ....

It looks a good flying day. Charge my lipos... cheap chargers in a bank of 4 do the job in 3/4 hour. (chargers cost $6 or so and are "foolproof") Packs come off the cheap chargers fully balanced and ready to go. No Rx battery. Go fly. Come back several hours later and put the plane away... no cleaning, no smell... dead easy and convenient.

Converting some of my gliders only increased their weight by an ounce or two. Remove noseweight and replace with electric motor. Take out Rx pack and replace with lipo and Esc which together weigh just a little more than the Nimh Rx pack

A small own design model goes in the car fully assembled. Take out, fly for 20 minutes, replace lipo, fly for 20 minutes,etc, go home, no cleaning or mess or smell.

Reg
Old 06-14-2008, 06:01 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Yes electric has brought many into the hobby. when you can buy a whole setup in the box EVERTHING for less than $200 it is a quantum leap in RC. After a taste some will go into IC power glow. petrol,and yes some will try diesel, the fact still stands that Enya is selling their diesels and Davis has had a leap in demand for conversion heads. Shulman with his big electric is factory sponsered and yes it does prove a point,Astro flight has some big motors out and a price to match . I do not think this is the death knell for those gas Desert Aircraft engines however. OS is expanding and bringing out new engines ditto for Thunder tiger, I would guess they did their homework on sales projections before dumping money in new projects. OS does still sell at least 250,000 units a year playing with numbers if just 1% were converted to diesel that is 2500 heads martin

I do not think PAW is going belly up either

One more point some of the arfs just released have electric or wet options
Old 06-15-2008, 02:13 AM
  #44  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Reg,

Many thanks for the tips. One thing I can try is to install some copper tubing inside the muffler. The cool fuel goes in and comes out hot and thinned out. This looks like a better idea than wrapping the tubing around the cylinder. I may have to use a device that will pump the fuel more efficiently than just muffler pressure though. We'll see.

I'm imagining that under full power, more heat will be applied to the fuel than at idle. BUT, because the fuel will be flowing through the tubing more slowly at idle, it'll get a chance to pick up more heat and this alone may keep that incoming fuel at a consistent viscosity.

Part of the reason for trying this was that there were a few queries on one of the Biodiesel forums for a small engine that ran on the fuel that could be used for demonstration purposes at high schools and science project fairs. Like myself, some had tried with not much luck.

In the end though, if this is true, http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...67011147&hl=en an all electric world may be a ways off yet.

Old 06-15-2008, 07:27 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Andy -informative stuff. Slope soarer, its whats works for you the idea is of course to fly and have fun regardless of what spins the prop
About 2 years ago we had a big open field in Orlando Fl ( alas now a shopping center) but is was a mecca for RC at least 20 would show up weekends, mainly electric but it was big enough
to fly 40 size glow and diesels ( me of course with the diesels the mighty apache ll with the irvine 40 diesel) Its 10 years old now and upped the power to an irvine 53 with a davis head now kicks a**s. ok back to the story depending on wind conditions sometimes the landing approach was over the Home depot parking lot but never any issues and we got a lot of lookers
I did have my GWS lite stick along with some of the other folks and many had mods. This was the debut of my cub with the OS 10 with the Davis head, being a fuel, flip ,and go and quiet long flights it attracted attention from the electric guys, most were under 30 and did not know diesel even existed. My point unless you run or have seen them fly they are an
unknown martin
Old 06-16-2008, 12:57 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

>Not expensive fuel that stinks, goes bad quickly and is thrown away.

I never throw it away. Stored in glass and properly sealed it will last for years ... the small amount of ether loss each time the bottle or fuelcan is opened can be simply restored with John Deere starting fluid, if no pure ether is obtainable (and it CAN be obtained if suitable reason can be provided, via a pharmacy, for instance) ... and stink? I love the smell of diesel fuel but then .. I've only been using it for about sixty years so maybe it's still a novelty....
Old 06-16-2008, 01:20 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Applehoney the new generation has no knowledge of diesel. Sorry but you can no longer get ether at your local pharmacy) (at least in the US and I am a Pharmacist)
It was made by HUMCO labeled for home and farm use came in a one pt can we still get acetone, 99% isopropyl alcohol , and denatured alcohol from our drug wholesaler made by them
but no more ether the last can I got from them was a couple of years ago and our cost was $16 , the John deere is only about $4.35 a can martin
Old 06-16-2008, 01:53 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

As we've found out, John Deere ether is virtually 99% ether. Good enough. And sealed in a pressure tight can, I think it's safer. With large engines it can get expensive, that's why I stick to the little guys.

But each to his own. There's a certain magic about diesel combustion that fascinates some of us and frustrates others.

It can be about diesel ENGINES or it can be about the science/concept of combustion with no visible means of spark,, conversions.

I run glow, diesel and have flown gasser in the past. What's not to like about any of them? I have one of those Palm-Z, RTF Wal Mart special, biplane electrics. Two channel, backyard fun that's nearly impossible to control. Until I added some fin area and lots of downthrust. Wal Mart also had one of those ornithopter pterodactyls marked down to 9.94 from 59.95 and I couldn't resist. And the stupid thing flys,, flap,flap,flap,, real fun to give the cat some exercise. The odd thing is, when he catches up to it, he freezes like a bird dog on point. Both will eventually be cannibalized and something will be built around them.

No, no, not the cat,,, the electric toys. [:@]
Old 06-16-2008, 04:36 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Whats next a cat that goes on point?? we have been thru wolves (mine) and a pet Dingo from one of the guys down under. Getting back to diesel Davis has his new CNC unit on line
and is catching up on the back orders, understand my OS10LA, OS32FX and ST34 heads on the way. Interesting besides himself, and Art the machinist, looks like he has an apprentice too
Wow a young guy learning a skill instead of playing with an X box, We need a little more of this in this country martin

Just got my Richmond RC flyer they have an all wood high wing 50.6 inch span for an electric brushless one piece wing $59.95 called the nouvo arf 4 channel looks like it might make a nice conversion
for a 10 or 15 diesel and a little texan41" span electric or 06 to 12 IC most of their smaller stuff can do electric or IC I caved in just ordered the PC9Pilatus Aussie markings will get the TT10 with davis head
Old 06-17-2008, 09:26 PM
  #50  
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??


The buses for the local transit system run on BioDiesel so somebody is supplying it in bulk, but I have yet to see a biodiesel pump at any of the gas stations I frequent... when I finally find some at the pump I'll fill a quart can and mix some fuel.

ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Hi Jim,

BioDiesel isn't practical yet, but you never know.

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