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diesel finally on the way??

Old 06-09-2008, 10:53 PM
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AMB
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Default diesel finally on the way??

With the Nitro shortage, lithium batteries from China being cut off. looks like diesel may have an upswing, Davis is gearing up with added new CNC tooling. not only for aircraft but also the car and truck market conversions Enya deserves credit for bringing out their diesels think their gamble payed off, PAW will see some more of their stuff out there too.
Really think some of the glow folks will take a hard look, better fuel economy and more power out of the engine vs glow

we may not just be the few too much longer martin

maybe they will take a look at Peter Burfords little gem too
Old 06-09-2008, 11:44 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

I hope you are right, but I'm a bit skeptical. The smell and the difficulty in obtaining fuel is still a big problem. Although, the smell can become something of joy after one acquaints themselves with it (again) and also once one gets used to ordering fuel to the front door instead of picking it up at the local hobbyshop.

I found a local dealer for John Deere starting fluid. Now to catch up with a shop that sells Sig castor oil at a fair price. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

In my present situation, the added quietness of a model Diesel engine is really a big factor in its choice. My Enya .25D is still NIB. Can't stand that much longer. I wonder how it would power a .40 sized Telemaster ARF? Probably just fine.

Ed Cregger
Old 06-10-2008, 12:15 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

i have had a half a dozen deisel engines sitting around for the last few years as i can not buy ETHER anywhere. years ago i could obtain this from certain chemists without any problems but now they seem to think its a drug.
Old 06-10-2008, 12:34 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

freeair,
The John Deer starting fluid is available here in Toowoomba- I just bought another 10 cans last week, if you really want to fly your diesels then check your local JD agent for starting fluid.
Stewart
Old 06-10-2008, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??



Sort of the same problem here. Starting fluid isn't as easy to find since it is the fuel of choice for those who cook down antihistimine tablets to make chrystal meth. [] And anything remotely connected to explosives is a trigger for a Homeland Security inquiry.

ORIGINAL: freeair
i have had a half a dozen deisel engines sitting around for the last few years as i can not buy ETHER anywhere. years ago i could obtain this from certain chemists without any problems but now they seem to think its a drug.
Old 06-10-2008, 04:18 PM
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Jim Thomerson
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

But commercial fuel is somewhat readily available in the USA: Eric Clutton, Davis, Aerodyne. I just don't care to mix fuel when commercial is available.
Old 06-10-2008, 09:45 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Hi Jim, Please add Red Max to the list. In addition to their available formulas, they'll mix your favorite brew if you wish.
Tony G
Old 06-11-2008, 08:47 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

I would love to see more diesel power out there but I think we need to work with one of the fuel suppliers to get a fuel that doesn't have the residual smell. I know that the people who fly diesel all the time kinda like the arroma but if glow flyers are going to switch there needs to be an option for this type of fuel. From what I have experienced it is the kero that has the lingering arroma. The ether flashes off and burns clean but the kero residual gets in the oil and lays on the plane and also gets on clothes. Maybe substiuting biodiesel for the kero will work. I know that this has been done and the fuel runs OK (may need 30% ether), has anyone run this in the field and what does the ship smell like after a flight (and the helpers clothes)?

Best, Dennis
Old 06-11-2008, 07:46 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

There is an issue with biodiesel at least for model use there does not seem to be a standard (feedstock for lack of a better term) . This came up with a conversation with Bob Davis
the Kero is consistant so no issues ,the new #2 low sulfur fuel has almost no odor however the typical diesel formulas for the last 50 years or so and the Davis mixes for better than 30
are the Kero base it seems this this still the best way at this point. If the exhaust is piped away the plane stays clean,a little care and you do not get it on your clothing

martin
Old 06-11-2008, 10:51 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Piping away exhaust, etc., is typical of the behavior of Diesel enthusiasts - a relatively small number of people. For Diesel to make serious inroads into the glow engine group, lots would have to change in operating a model Diesel engine. The stink is obvious, but there are other problems as well.

Pricing model Diesel fuel at twice the price of glow fuel, simply because the engine will run a prescribed amount of time on only half as much fuel, when compared to glow, is one of the things that is killing model Diesel popularity. Being less greedy would greatly expand the number of consumers. Money could then be earned by selling accessories for model Diesel engines at an increased rate. Expensive fuel goes into the carburetor and then out of the exhaust port. That is money that will never be seen again. I would rather have it invested in engines, conversion heads, model Diesel powered models and etc. Not expensive fuel that stinks, goes bad quickly and is thrown away.

In other words. It is time for a paradigm shift. We need new blood in the Diesel businesses. Those that are not married to the past.


Ed Cregger
Old 06-12-2008, 12:06 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??


ORIGINAL: AMB

With the Nitro shortage, lithium batteries from China being cut off. looks like diesel may have an upswing, Davis is gearing up with added new CNC tooling. not only for aircraft but also the car and truck market conversions Enya deserves credit for bringing out their diesels think their gamble payed off, PAW will see some more of their stuff out there too.
Really think some of the glow folks will take a hard look, better fuel economy and more power out of the engine vs glow

we may not just be the few too much longer martin

maybe they will take a look at Peter Burfords little gem too

I'm not into electric so I haven't been following the goings on but you say lithium batteries from China are cut off? Can you elaborate, provide links?

Old 06-12-2008, 12:15 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??


ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger

Piping away exhaust, etc., is typical of the behavior of Diesel enthusiasts - a relatively small number of people. For Diesel to make serious inroads into the glow engine group, lots would have to change in operating a model Diesel engine. The stink is obvious, but there are other problems as well.

Pricing model Diesel fuel at twice the price of glow fuel, simply because the engine will run a prescribed amount of time on only half as much fuel, when compared to glow, is one of the things that is killing model Diesel popularity. Being less greedy would greatly expand the number of consumers. Money could then be earned by selling accessories for model Diesel engines at an increased rate. Expensive fuel goes into the carburetor and then out of the exhaust port. That is money that will never be seen again. I would rather have it invested in engines, conversion heads, model Diesel powered models and etc. Not expensive fuel that stinks, goes bad quickly and is thrown away.

In other words. It is time for a paradigm shift. We need new blood in the Diesel businesses. Those that are not married to the past.


Ed Cregger
I second that emotion. If anyone's familiar with my YouTube submissions, some 80 in all with much of that devoted to diesel, you might deduce that I've been trying to come up with solutions to some of the objections to diesel.

Such as the fear of using electric starters. No fear, just a bit more care. A strong connecting rod helps too and that only pertains to Norvel conversions.

Use of biodiesel showed some promise.

No ether in the fuel proved to be a real hard nut to crack. BUT developments this spring may offer at least a partial solution.

Then there's the possibility of an entirely new fuel blend. This too has showed promise.

Unfortunately, I've lost nearly a year due to personal and family issues.

I'll try to resume the work and just maybe we'll have something.
Old 06-12-2008, 07:00 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

The lithium battery thing came up in the Nitro shortage post on the glow site, as far as cost goes diesel fuel contains about 30% ether this is where the cost is and the cost of running diesel is still about the price of glow based on consumption per unit of time vs glow, and glow is increasing in price it most likely will approach $20 a gallon shortly
I know for a fact Davis is looking at possible changes thru Rand D projects. His standards are simple 100% right 100% of the time, this proves out in all his products heads, fuel,
You will not see an "off shore head": to save a buck, his rods for the traxxax is also an example , something is right since he has now launched into heads for the car and truck market qualilty products made in the USA are his standard period. The other makers here have also increased prices. The price of diesel fuel in the UK is twice that of here so "greed is not an issue

The advantage of diesel need not be repeated we are lucky we do not have the problems of our friends"down under" in the fuel thing , the money thing ( fuel cost) is not limited to to Davis, Redmax and cluttons are more too

My beaver if set up as an electric would have been around $400 and for a 10 minute run??land and insert an other battery for $90 or more??
I really think based on operating costs per hour this is not an issue

In closing this is not a plug for Davis, PAW is alive and well . and if you so desire you can transform a good base engine to diesel with a connersion head

Also in the electric fray ENYA has launched a diesel line 11,15, and 25 in 2 Strk I have all 3 to complement my Davis conversions martin


Old 06-12-2008, 07:07 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Martin, check PM Thanks, Dave
Old 06-12-2008, 10:16 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

A couple of years or so ago, someone reported an odorless kerosene substitute in Home Depot or Lowe's that was for kerosene space heaters. Has anyone tried that? I did not pursue it because I use commercial fuel.

I think most of us accept the smell as part of the hobby.

George
Old 06-12-2008, 10:20 AM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

I had a run on WD40 at one point. Got to try that again. You could buy it in gallons for a reasonable price. Maybe with lots of cetane booster and no ether?
Old 06-12-2008, 02:18 PM
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Jim Thomerson
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Some disagreement with Ed Cregger. First, I don't think there is price gouging on diesel fuel. It is something produced in small batches, no economy of scale. I would rather presume that the suppliers are honest businessmen who set a fair profit on their product. The argument that you can get twice the mileage out of diesel fuel has nothing to do with price, except to reduce demand. I've never had diesel fuel go bad and have to be discarded. If this is your experience, it was not because of any failing on the part of the fuel. No argument on the smell.
Old 06-12-2008, 02:24 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Just got off the phone with Davis diesel they are slammed with orders for heads both aircraft and car/truck. This may be the result of the nitro thing?? Most likely there will be a
spillover with PAW also and at this point they are not showing up with questions on this site, get ready guys for Qand As martin
Old 06-12-2008, 02:38 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

crazy question but can you run bio diesel as in corn oil?? I found that diesel coast just as much as nitro and you don't get the same high rpm... I am a noob in the world of diesel i like to try a diesel conversion if i can get the fuel for less thanks for reading James
Old 06-12-2008, 03:05 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Jim, the advantage to a larger prop running at lower rpm is that you get about twice as much flying time from a gallon of fuel or the Diesel burns half as much. Which ever way you prefer to look at it. Diesels rarely dead stick unless out of fuel and even then if you cut the throttle quick enough it will usually idle until you land.
Old 06-12-2008, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??


ORIGINAL: Jim Thomerson

Some disagreement with Ed Cregger. First, I don't think there is price gouging on diesel fuel. It is something produced in small batches, no economy of scale. I would rather presume that the suppliers are honest businessmen who set a fair profit on their product. The argument that you can get twice the mileage out of diesel fuel has nothing to do with price, except to reduce demand. I've never had diesel fuel go bad and have to be discarded. If this is your experience, it was not because of any failing on the part of the fuel. No argument on the smell.




Price gouging - you may be right.

I wasn't referring to throwing the fuel away because it went bad. I was referring to blowing it out of the exhaust stack, never to be seen again. Lost money, but especially so IF the fuel is more expensive than it need be. Your reasoning sounds good.

Anyone would be a fool not to charge as much as they could for their own time or any object/product they might sell. I couldn't resist using the word greedy because I knew it would set off someone and bring forth some dialogue. Is it being a troll if you're trying to stir up positive activity in the forum? As they say in Hollywood, "There no such thing as bad publicity". <G>


Ed Cregger
Old 06-12-2008, 04:02 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Jim, the advantage to a larger prop running at lower rpm is that you get about twice as much flying time from a gallon of fuel or the Diesel burns half as much. Which ever way you prefer to look at it. Diesels rarely dead stick unless out of fuel and even then if you cut the throttle quick enough it will usually idle until you land.

I run 1/10th and 1/8th trucks and i need top end...
I don't mind a small loss of the high rpm but just how much is the question
Old 06-12-2008, 04:39 PM
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ORIGINAL: Jim8ightT

crazy question but can you run bio diesel as in corn oil?? I found that diesel coast just as much as nitro and you don't get the same high rpm... I am a noob in the world of diesel i like to try a diesel conversion if i can get the fuel for less thanks for reading James
Jim,

Here, http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=VbUKT9etnQM you can see a Norvel, diesel conversion running on 100% Biodiesel fuel. Not even any oil added. It ran but was a real bear to get started. and a lot of the fuel was simply going out the exhaust. I think that the issue is that the higher viscosity of the BioDiesel doesn't allow full atomization. One solution would be to pre-heat the fuel. This could be done with coils around the cylinder or inside the muffler. This will be tried this summer, hopefully.
Old 06-12-2008, 04:42 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

Jim,

Don't worry about a loss of top end. A diesel spinning a small prop (low load) will sometimes out rev a glow. Or if that doesn't work well in a car/truck, you could always experiment with gearing. I'm sure that Davis has this all sorted out. He knows his stuff.
Old 06-12-2008, 07:25 PM
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Default RE: diesel finally on the way??

For the car guys (well everybody) go on UTUBE pull up diesel hpi 4.6 and traxxax 3.3 diesel so much for speed issue

martin

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