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OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Old 08-26-2009, 12:27 PM
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GWHR
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

I am in the process of converting a Thunder Tiger .10 FP and it seems the engine loads up easily. After running for short periods and stalling, the engine still has enough fuel to run a few seconds without the fuel line connected. I need to experiment with it more.

You mentioned you have converted an OS .10 LA. Does this engine run well upright? How is the lower end of the RPMs [where I often run]?
Old 09-11-2009, 01:17 AM
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asen59
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

anybody have a drawing of detail this convert cyl head?as I heard ,diesel cyl head have a contra cyl n contra piston,
pls advise.
tq
asen
Old 09-11-2009, 07:26 AM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Could you please post some pics of your TT 10?
Old 09-16-2009, 06:27 AM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Kostas,

Here's a video of the OS .10 with a .15 piston and liner installed and converted to diesel with my own design head. It hasn't been flown, but extensivley bench run. Never had a problem with the rod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpit...e=channel_page
Old 09-16-2009, 10:49 AM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Thank you@
Old 09-16-2009, 09:02 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

@
ORIGINAL: AndyW

Kostas,

Here's a video of the OS .10 with a .15 piston and liner installed and converted to diesel with my own desing head. It hasn't been flown, but extensivley bench run. Never had a problem with the rod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpit...e=channel_page
@ andy

can u share yr own design head drawing?.is it have a contra liner & contra piston also ?

how to hold the contra piston not drop in the original liner when the piston suck ( go to bottom direction ) ,is it just hold by oring with hard fit in?

pls advise.
thank u
Old 09-16-2009, 09:09 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?


ORIGINAL: AndyW

Kostas,

Here's a video of the OS .10 with a .15 piston and liner installed and converted to diesel with my own desing head. It hasn't been flown, but extensivley bench run. Never had a problem with the rod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpit...e=channel_page
@ andy

I saw yr video , why the last run the engine like the rich fuel when u full throtle?is just the needle seting or must we adjust the compression again?
pls advise.
thank u
Old 09-17-2009, 02:34 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?


ORIGINAL: asen59

@
ORIGINAL: AndyW

Kostas,

Here's a video of the OS .10 with a .15 piston and liner installed and converted to diesel with my own desing head. It hasn't been flown, but extensivley bench run. Never had a problem with the rod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpit...e=channel_page
@ andy

can u share yr own design head drawing?.is it have a contra liner & contra piston also ?

how to hold the contra piston not drop in the original liner when the piston suck ( go to bottom direction ) ,is it just hold by oring with hard fit in?

pls advise.
thank u

Guys,
what do we mean with the phrase "contra liner/contra piston" ???[]
Old 09-17-2009, 09:01 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Kostas, I think he is referring to the fact that some factory built Diesels, (PAW) have the contr-piston in the cylinder, Conversion heads have the contra-piston in the head with the contra piston cupped to match the slope of the squish area outside the contra piston.

Andy, I you look closely you can see that the fuel tank is just about empty causing the lean surging.

Here are three heads from Davis, MVVS and Irvine, the Davis head on the left is for a SuperTigre .90 and is unrun, the MVVS .61 head consists of four pieces and the Irvine .40 is of conventional construction. I have Davis heads on the MVVS and the Irvine. The SuperTigre .90 is not broken in yet.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:01 AM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Asen, Kostas,

I'll try and take some pictures and make some drawings later and get back to you. I use Viton O-Rings to seal the contra-piston and also to hold it in place. Buna-N, neoprene and nitrils will also work but Viton has a higher heat resistance so that's what I use.

I have diesel, Norvel .15s for sale but still need to try and perfect throttling on these. This requires 40% ether fuel and that can make it a bit expensive to run.
Old 09-17-2009, 11:30 AM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Hobbsy,

Good catch on that. But, in fact, the tank is set very high and in that case, the bottom of the tank is just 1/2" below the carb's needle. What's actually happening is that the engine cools at idle requiring a higher compression. This causes incomplete combustion and loading of fuel in the case.

OR, as this liner is from another engine, the ports may not be optimized for best atomization. This doesn't show at full bore because atomization is most efficient at higher speeds. But at idle, atomization isn't the best and we have a poor idle and acceleration. Or both. Co-factors can bite you.

This engine was converted back to glow and the poor idle and acceleration followed. BUT, using a hotter plug delivered perfect idle and acceleration. How to duplicate that as diesel is the question.
Old 09-17-2009, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Thanks Andy, it was one of those, (theory thoughts), I know that Diesels are a little more sensitive to fuel level but being able to use a smaller tank covers that pretty well.
Old 09-17-2009, 01:45 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?


ORIGINAL: AndyW

Hobbsy,

Good catch on that. But, in fact, the tank is set very high and in that case, the bottom of the tank is just 1/2'' below the carb's needle. What's actually happening is that the engine cools at idle requiring a higher compression. This causes incomplete combustion and loading of fuel in the case.

OR, as this liner is from another engine, the ports may not be optimized for best atomization. This doesn't show at full bore because atomization is most efficient at higher speeds. But at idle, atomization isn't the best and we have a poor idle and acceleration. Or both. Co-factors can bite you.

This engine was converted back to glow and the poor idle and acceleration followed. BUT, using a hotter plug delivered perfect idle and acceleration. How to duplicate that as diesel is the question.

I would think that increasing the ether content of the fuel would be analogous to using a hotter glow plug for glow.


Ed Cregger
Old 09-17-2009, 02:51 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Ed, adding ether reduces power, I have some stuff here called Gadget fuel from RedMax, while it runs smooth and cool it isn't nearly as powerful as the kerosene ether mix.
Old 09-17-2009, 09:54 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

@ hobbsy

thank fr yr image share,
can u share the mvvs with 4 pieces explode photo's?.(I just saw 1 head w/ cont liner & another ones,)
how for davis?as I know ,there are also have pressure adjustment?can u share the explode photo ?.(I just saw 1 assembly photo ,is it right?)
irvine u mention conventional ,is it mean same with glow engine w/o pressure adjustment?
pls advise
thank you

@ andy
do u sell converting for os 46 ax?.

can I used conventional car diesel fuel w/o ether?
Old 09-17-2009, 10:07 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

@hobbsy
may I know yr email address?
mine [email protected]
thank you
Old 09-17-2009, 11:33 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

Ed and Hobbsy,

You're both right. Adding ether can change timing and where your contra ends up. And like Nitro, it will help throttling. But UNLIKE nitro, it does decrease power. BUT, you have to go a far way to do that, like 60% and that gets kinda expensive. I think the Gadget needed an all ether fuel. And that points out the tremendous cetane boosting power of ether. It lights off at a far lower compression than straight kero, as an example of testing extremes. So that allows something like the gadget to run a "diesel" fuel. Not really, as diesel IS kero based, isn't it? And you still have to light the gadget so I never did see the point.

Asen and Kostas,

Pictured is how I make diesel buttons for Cox and Norvel engines. Both use a head clamp made out of burned out Cox, glow heads or the Norvel glow button clamp. Both need to be bored out to the OD of the diesel button.

Because Cox and Norvel engine pistons ride up level to the deck of the cylinder, the contra-piston bottoms out flush with the bottom face of the button.

In the case of the OS engine, the contra has to intrude into the cylinder bore a bit and that's illustrated by the last picture.
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:07 AM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

@ ANDY

can u make diesel botton for os 46 ax?
how much it cost ?
thank you
Old 09-18-2009, 07:15 AM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Ed, adding ether reduces power, I have some stuff here called Gadget fuel from RedMax, while it runs smooth and cool it isn't nearly as powerful as the kerosene ether mix.


I believe you, Hobbsy. I was just thinking in terms of making the engine behave similarly to using a hotter glow plug when operating in glow mode.


Ed Cregger
Old 09-18-2009, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

ORIGINAL: asen59

can I used conventional car diesel fuel w/o ether?
No, that does not work, you need a special fuel.
The name diesel for our model engines is missleading. They do not have any glow or spark plugs but they are not a diesel engine like the ones we have in our cars.
Old 09-18-2009, 01:37 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?


ORIGINAL: Mr Cox

ORIGINAL: asen59

can I used conventional car diesel fuel w/o ether?
No, that does not work, you need a special fuel.
The name diesel for our model engines is misleading. They do not have any glow or spark plugs but they are not a diesel engine like the ones we have in our cars.

Yes, but maybe not exactly. Diesel fuel from the pumps is, as I understand it, in the same class of fuel as jet fuel and kerosene . It's just less refined. Jet fuel is the most refined. I've used jet fuel, kerosene and pump diesel in my fuel mixes and all ran well with 40% ether added.

I've also been able to run a no ether fuel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R9YL...e=channel_page and that's on a PAW. Notice the ice cube on the cylinder. When it was said that model diesels won't run without ether, what they really meant was that model diesels wont HAND start without ether in the fuel. The trick here was to use a special, prime mix AND an electric starter. Ether does good things in our engines and that's to raise the cetane level. Cetane rating means the capacity of a fuel to fire off on the heat of compression alone. The higher the better for us. That's why an all ether fuel will work on glow engines with the gadget.

In my no ether experiments, I could get the engine to fire off more easily by applying external heat from a heat gun. Doing multiple, prime runs does the same thing, it raises the engine's temperature until the engine starts. What is also required to start that engine without ether in the fuel, is an electric starter. This has, in the past, deemed to be taboo and it is, to a point. IF you apply prime drops ONLY to the intake into a dry engine, and use an electric starter, that prime, if it does NOT fire off, (due to insufficient compression) will be blown out of the engine. Then, when you increase compression and apply more prime, only that fresh prime will be there and no hydraulic lock will occur. As you apply prime TO THE INTAKE, and increase compression, your engine will fire off and you will have found your APPROXIMATE compression setting.

Having said all that, of you wade through my posts, you'll see that a low or no ether fuel will make throttling much harder. AND, in the case of my overbored, OS .10, even with LOTS of ether, throttling can be a problem.

GWHR,

stay tuned, any fix I find may be applicable to your Thundertigre.

Asen,

I assume that you have no source for commercial, model diesel fuel. You can make your own.

39% Kerosene from the hardware store
39% ether from spray cans of truck diesel, quickstart. John Deere is the best, other brands can work well too.
20% castor oil from Klotz or Sig.
2% Amsoil, cetane booster,,, octyl nitrate instead of the usual, impossible to get, amyl nitrate, (a heart drug)

I'm sure you have kerosene available and I suppose they use diesel trucks in Indonesia? But it doesn't get cold there so it may not be possible to get ether in spray cans.

Both the oil and the Amsoil can be ordered on-line and I'm guessing that there should be no problem in getting it shipped to you.

But we have no idea what it's like to be a modeler in Indonesia. I assume you have clubs and hobby shops?

And if you want to spend many hours reading up on the subject, here's a thread that ran for quite some time. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_45..._1/key_/tm.htm
Old 09-18-2009, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?


ORIGINAL: asen59

@ ANDY

can u make diesel botton for os 46 ax?
how much it cost ?
thank you
Asen,

Your best bet is to get a head from Davis Diesel Development. They can also supply the fuel OR if shipping that to your country is not feasible, I believe that DDD will supply you with a formula to make your own. I'm an amateur with ideas of my own, Mr. Davis is the professional.

Having said that, I could give it a try but I would need the entire engine. I would need to make the head and test it to make sure it works and to make sure that it will throttle well. Unless throttling is not a requirement for your use, of course.
Old 09-18-2009, 08:56 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

@ mr cox
thank 's for yr info.

@ andy.
this 'll be more difficult & expensive if I must buy the fuel fm ddd,my local hs just sell nitro fuel (byron,coolpower ,coolmax...)I don't saw anyone use diesel engine for rc here,i'm used w/o nitro for my plane w/ os 46 ax, I just mix metanol & castorl oil ,4: 1 .
but for my heli ,need more accel for soft 3D flight.. I used coolpower 15 % nitro.
the nitro fuel become higher n higher day by day, I think if diesel engine can cut high cost,can do just with kerosine n castor,
not every one can easy get the ether ,amsoil ,amylnitrat ....
the other thing is ,I curious to know diesel cyl head ,

in yr opinion, what is the benefit from diesel engine?
pls advise ,thank you.
Old 09-18-2009, 09:06 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?

In most cases a Diesel will do the same job on about 50% les fuel, the Diesel will be quieter while turning a larger prop. Once a Diesel is set correctly they almost never dead stick.
Old 09-18-2009, 11:23 PM
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Default RE: OS 10FSR conversion to diesel?


ORIGINAL: asen59

@ mr cox
thank 's for yr info.

@ andy.
this 'll be more difficult & expensive if I must buy the fuel fm ddd,my local hs just sell nitro fuel (byron,coolpower ,coolmax...)I don't saw anyone use diesel engine for rc here,i'm used w/o nitro for my plane w/ os 46 ax, I just mix metanol & castorl oil ,4: 1 .
but for my heli ,need more accel for soft 3D flight.. I used coolpower 15 % nitro.
the nitro fuel become higher n higher day by day, I think if diesel engine can cut high cost,can do just with kerosine n castor,
not every one can easy get the ether ,amsoil ,amylnitrat ....
the other thing is ,I curious to know diesel cyl head ,

in yr opinion, what is the benefit from diesel engine?
pls advise ,thank you.
Asen,

Ah, I see where you're going with this. The high cost of nitro fuel. Unfortunately, that can be a problem with diesel. Ether is absolutely essential if you need good throttling. And you DO need good throttling with a heli.

We can get ether here, but it comes in a spray can for 7 ounces at a time. You would need, for your .46, perhaps, at least 20%. That may be enough to give good throttling but I don't know if the .46 will do that. I don't have any experience with the OS .46, I'm afraid. I'm sure that Mr. Davis has experience with diesels in helis, he's just about the best and most knowledgeable person on diesel conversions. I make my own heads mostly because I can and also because Davis doesn't make heads for most Norvel engines.

As Hobbsy says, your mileage can be up to double that of glow in the same engine so it's a good idea you have but there CAN be problems. Diesels fire off at a higher compression compared to glow so they have more punch when they fire off and this delivers more torque. But that might mean that unless you re-gear your heli, you won't have much of an advantage over glow. If you run a converted diesel with the same propeller as you did when the engine was glow, you won't see the advantages that diesel offers. Your fuel consumption will be the same. The same if you don't re-gear the heli. You have to REDUCE the gear ratio because diesels prefer to run slower, with more torque. By prefer, I mean that they operate best at lower RPMs.

I did a search for, "diesel conversions for helicopters" and I got this result. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&so...meta=&aq=f&oq=

The first item is an OLD one, going back over 20 years. I know because I HAD a GMP Competitor. [:@]

The piece is copyrighted by Davis Diesel Development so I won't reproduce it here. So Mr. Davis has extensive experience with all aspects of diesel, including use in helis.




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