RE: Substitute for Ether
 

In light of the preceding, I wonder if adding a LITTLE gasoline to our diesel mix might not aid combustion/ignition despite the slight lowering of cetane rating?

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

The permutations just keep increasing-- there probably is a Holy Grail of etherless diesel fuel somewhere in this!!

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

here are some numbers
Autoignition Point of Selected Substances

* Silane: <21°C (70°F)
* White phosphorus: 34°C (93°F)
* Carbon disulfide: 100°C (212°F)
* Diesel : 210C (410F)
* Gasoline: 257°C (495°F) or 246C (474.8F)
* Butane: 430°C (806°F)
* Magnesium: 473°C (883°F)
* Hydrogen: 571°C (1060°F)

I am guessing a full size diesel truck engine would reach the auto ignition temp of gasoline. it seems like mixing gas and diesel would make it harder to ignite in the model.

i built a flame thrower out of a yard spary tank and I used to mix gas and diesel 50/50 and it was much easier to light and keep the stream lit well. With straght gas it was scary and straight diesel it burned too slow unless I turned the nozzle to spray a mist but then it was a flame thrower:D

I still think a bigger 18cc or so engine would do much better with a good bit more air volume to compress. its still about 2.5 times as big as a .40 engine.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

More food for thought from the January 1986 Aeromodeller magazine (and no, I don't who Lou is)

Diesel Fuel Without Ether

... from an article in the Jan 86 Aeromodeller magazine titled :
“ETHER...OR”

Sub-Headline: Robert Dulake poses some very interesting questions on what
should go in our fuel tanks...

-----------------------------------------------------

Necessity can be the mother of invention. So can bad planning, to wit
the evening when I was caught ready to fly with no [diesel] fuel, save
only a few drops left from the previous Sunday. My ether ration,on order
from the model shop,so far hadn't arrived,so I tried the local chemist
He had a sense of humor, ether at 8.00 Pounds per litre...[$12 per
quart].. no chance, I'm afraid, of making a sale. So what to do? Thinking
back I recalled some bench-bound experiments of the previous winter when,
priming with ordinary fuel, I had managed to make a variety of diesels
pick up and run from cold on a paraffin/oil blend. No startingly new idea,
this, but one implanted in my memory long ago while reading Model
Aircraft (Bowden) under the desk in school, and now was the time to see
how such a fuel would behave in the air.

Garage, kitchen and brain were ransacked until a blend of cooking oil,
Castrol 545 [detergent?], paraffin and isopropyl nitrate emerged which
didn't distress the PAW 19 [England's Fox .35?] too much, so off I went to
the park with my last remaining drops of respectable fuel for priming.
Four flights, one rich cut and three recognizable stunt schedules were
enough to prove the point. Ether IS NOT necessary to fly a diesel.

At this stage, however, the PAW wasn't entirely happy and would labor
if over leaned as only an unhappy PAW can. [dieselers can imagine!]
Cheering it up was the next task and it soon became clear that the
lubricant held the key. Logical, this, as paraffin evaporates very slowly
and stays around to dilute the oil at the bearings giving an effect not
unlike a metallic equivalent of arthritis.

After discarding several mineral oils, and then finding mediocre
results with Shell 2TX [for cars?], I returned to cooking oil, which is a
beautiful natural vegetable oil, a fair lubricant, and above all, cheap.
This time I boiled in small amounts of dish detergent and glycerine giving
a fine, fairly stable suspension of dehydrated and non-paraffin soluble
lubricant to coat the bearings. This seemed to have the desired effect, so
I ran some RPM checks comparing fuel to the following formulation with
MODEL TECHNICS D2000 [a commercial UK diesel fuel]:

I.P.N.... 1%, Paraffin.... 66%, Modified cooking oil.... 33%

I tested three engines, a very down at the heels ME 'Snipe', a well
run-in but still excellent PAW 19 R/C and a newish E.D. 'Viking'. They
gave similar figures, prop for prop, on both fuels, and similar throttle
performance too- where appropriate. Handling was different, of course.
The ether free fuel needed a very rich needle to pick up from cold and a
little compression chasing to nurse it through the first few seconds of
running. [Ahh, diesels...] It was also more sensitive to adjustment when
hot and needed a little more compression advancement. Accepting this, once
fuel was at the spraybar, a prime of ether containing fuel was all that
was needed for a cold start. Hot restarting only needed a heav[y]ish prime
or choke.

As a basis of experimentation the fuel formulation given earlier was as
good as any. Nitrate level might be varied to suit individual motor/prop
combinations and can be increased to improve cold pick up.

The overwhelming advantage gained in omitting ether is economy. The
price of fuel works out at less than 1 Pound [$1.50] per litre and on a
cost/weight /performance basis this must make the diesel a formidable
rival for the four stroke glow motor. Against this is a little extra time
in establishing settings while the motor warms up and an extra tin of fuel
for priming. Power and throttling appear unaffected.

Ether free fuels seem well worth considering for sports C/L and R/C
work where long engine runs are called for [vs. FF] and they offer a
challenge to anyone who just enjoys experimenting with diesels.

As for the diesels themselves,I have never heard them express an
opinion on diet or anything else for that matter but it is quite possible
that replacing all that anaesthetic with calorific value might make them
livelier than usual.


"Why Cooking Oil?"

Vegetable oils come from many sources. Chemically they are very
similar, ie. they are triglycerides of C18 fatty acids. Differences,
except for one very special case, are confined to the degree of
unsaturation. Those with higher saturation, eg, sunflower and linseed are
in demand for their drying properties by the paint industry and are
relatively expensive. Some less expensive types, eg, soya, rape,
groundnut [peanut?] etc. tend to be less unsaturated and find their
way onto the supermarket shelves under the guise of branded cooking oils.

The special case mentioned earlier is that of castor which has little
unsaturation and does not dry but is hydroxylated which makes it thicker
than the other oils, unsoluble in paraffin and important for glowmotors -
soluble in lower alcohols. The other oils dissolve readily in paraffin but
not in alcohols.

In diesel fuel, castor is undoubtedly superior to other vegetable oils,
but needs ether to keep it in solution. Without ether, one is left with a
choice of mineral oil, some synthetic oils, or ordinary vegetable oil. The
mineral and synthetic oils are not at their best in high paraffin fuels
where dilution effects come into play and here they have little, if
anything to offer over the cheapest vegetable oil.

However, when it comes to modifying an oil (it is probable some
chemical change specific to vegetable oil take place as well as physical
dispersion) as in the accompanying article, a simple chemical substance of
known non-toxic properties is much safer to play with than a commercial
2-stroke oil which may contain unknown hazardous ingredients. Add to this
the consideration of cost (some more expensive cooking oil contains
thinning additives and should be avoided) and the question becomes not WHY
cooking oil but WHY NOT cooking oil.

"MODIFIED COOKING OIL LUBRICANT”

1) MIX :-

Water 15 cc

Glycerine 5 cc

Washing up liquid 20 cc ('Fairy' brand cited - I used 'Joy')

2) STIR INTO :-

Cooking oil 1/2 litre [500 cc](Cheapest, thickest brand)

3) WARM IN SAUCEPAN until frothing stops,then simmer very slowly until
all froth disappears.

Stir well all the time (important)

4) COOL AND DECANT

5) DISCARD INSOLUBLE RESIDUE

**TREAT HOT OIL WITH RESPECT. WEAR GLASSES IN CASE OF SPLASHING**


LOU’S COMMENTS after the article:

About 1/2 hour to boil up a liter. Residue settles for a day or more
after boiling. I've run this on DDD's and as-built diesels. With 10% truck
starting ether, starts need no ether prime; but settings must still be
chased. Without nitrate, starts are reasonable hot/cold; need LESS
compression than run setting, (wet prime?). Sooty exhaust- may be the
unscented kerosene.(Exhaust smells like the grille at Joe's Diner!) Flies
like commercial mix, when set correctly. REMEMBER: The recipe is for the
oil ONLY- The FUEL is 20/10/3 parts kerosene/oil/ether (or the 2/1
kerosene/oil + 1% IPN as above).

Lou,

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Graham,,

So many thanks for the wonderful article. It explains a lot about what happened last night. It seems that those that were concerned about the oil settling out were right,, at least partly. Thanks to Global Warming, we in the north have been having truly exceptionally HOT weather this summer. Temperatures have been in the 80s and 90s for three or more weeks. Last evening we had a break, down to a bone chilling mid sixties. Pulled out the old flying jacket and went flying.

Last night EVERYTHING changed. The night I flew the .074 on no ether fuel, was WARM and very windy. After tweaking the top end, I flew at mostly full bore and medium throttle. I recall having a flame out or two but I attributed that to not tweaking the low end sufficiently. I made an ASSumption. Bad science. Last night it was cool and calm and so I settled down to fully adjusting the engine and give the no ether fuel a FULL workout. That's when the fun began. I could easily get a good, strong top end. Power was not up to par but this old .074 was getting on. We all know how anal I am about throttling so I spent a vexing hour trying to get a result that I KNEW this engine was capable of. The idle went extremely rough, occasionally stopped stone cold and it took a full turn 1/4 on the compression screw to smooth things out. But then the top end was overcompressed so I set it at a compromise and went up. I put in one flight that did allow me to idle for as long as I wanted but it was ROUGH with a lot burrp, pop brrrrrr etc. Well, at least it had character.

I had a can of standard mix with me (30/50/20) and so I gave it a try. Everything went good again, top end was stronger, idle and transition came back and I put in a normal flight with full confidence in low level aerobatics. Compression and needles had to be radically adjusted from the no ether mix.

Sitting back contemplating, I noticed my fuel bottle sitting there in the grass and lo and behold NASA, we have SEPARATION. You had to pay attention, but it was there. Worse, as mentioned with the prior freeze test, the separation seemed to show a 40 oil to 60 kero mix. OK, we have an obligation to get to the bottom of this. I went home and transferred the remaining fuel into a glass jar, popped it into the freezer overnight and here we are.

The pics don't show it well but there's obvious separation, no doubt. Interestingly, the dye in the oil, also dyed the kero. OR is this PARTIAL separation with SOME kero in solution with the oil and some oil still in solution with the kero? Probably not, there's a definite line of separation from oil to kero visible.

SO, I flew the .074 with a very high oil content and, relatively, a reasonable kero content. This mix had 2% Amsoil. If the apparent separation reflects the true situation, I may have been getting much higher kero runs at first. As I poured out fuel into my fueller bottle, things got mixed a bit and likely my ratios were not as intended. More kero got in the mix and more oil was left behind till we had NOT our original blend. And this is what we flew last night.

STILL, the engine ran. But here's the rub. As I got home and transfered my no ether mix into the jar, it looked cloudy. This was not noticed in the jug because THAT's translucent. The jar showed this clearly but as I held the jar up to the light, and the mix stirred a bit, it started to clear up. A full shake of the jar produced a clear, fully mixed solution, NO separation visible at ALL and it was also clear. This was in a relatively warm basement so I checked the thermometer and it read 70 degrees plus. So, I left the jar on a top shelf with a bright light and went off to do some puttering. Two hours later, the mix was still clear with NO separation. No mistake, no question. So I popped the jar into the freezer and checked this morning. The result was some serious separation.

I let this sit for an hour and with the jar still quite cold, I gave it a shake. All ingredients went into solution easily. It became cloudy again, so I let it sit for 10 minutes and it was still in solution,,, BUT, here it is, twenty minutes later and we're starting to see SOME separation. This time, the heavier ingredient appears to be predominant but we know these things take time. I'm going to let this solution sit for 12 hours and also warm up to ambient, (about 70) and see what we get.

Bottom line, my ignorance led me to believe that we can run an all kero/castor mix with no problems. Well, maybe we still can. It may be reasonable to assume that we can mix up an all kero/castor mix and as long as we always give the jug a full shake every time we use it, we might have some use for it. The fact that we can store a no ether mix in a plastic jug allows us to monitor its health. Only now, we need to find a CLEAR, plastic jug.

I have to admit that the high ether fuel was a pleasure to go back to. Even with "only" a 30% ether mix, it ran, adjusted easily, and gave me a satisfying flight. But, there's no fun in that, is there? [:@] Maybe the larger engines will respond to a well shaken, no ether mix. That may be the point. Using lots of expensive ether mixes in small engines don't break the bank. Running up to .40's can be expensive. And remember, all of this started with the observation that the Norvel .40 ran well on just 5%. But yes, there were throttling issues and some starting fussiness.

I'm going to let the subject mix sit and warm up for a day or two and see what we get. Then I'm going to add a few drops of ether and repeat the experiment. Just what if that's all it takes. :eek:

But something new has appeared on the horizon. Finally, I have some 50 weight, non detergent, aviation oil. Luke Levaseur, local modeller and homebuilt pilot dropped some off yesterday, after stumbling on this thread. Thanks Luke, and now I know where to get it. As "LOU" in the article reveals, and I found out the hard way, castor won't mix with kerosene. Well, not forever. Anyway, it appears that other oils will. Some time back, I bought some soy nut butter and drained off the oil that had settled to the top. This has sat for some months and looks very clear with some gunk at the bottom. The intent was to make up some biodiesel with an unprocessed oil. Kelly has linked me to some excellent articles about how this is done. As it turns out, it's a little more complex than I'm prepared for, so for now, I'm going to do what Lou did, use it as the oil component in a new, no ether mix,,, one that contains varying amounts of Amsoil.

All is not lost though, for a no ether mix. If we can get aviation type, non-detergent oil in THIS small town,,,, I'm sure ANYONE can. And at three dollars a quart, it's cheaper than castor. Hope it works as well. Then there's that Cool Power OIL that Kelly alerted us to.

Castor was the best, so far, in a non ether mix and yes, it'll eventually settle out. Chit, :([&o] but it was fun finding out for myself.

Thanks again, Graham. Imagine, this article was written in the 80's. I barely knew diesel's existed back then. [:o]

And Colin, yes, it appears that a warm, kero/castor fuel, well shaken, can be made to work. But you've got to pay attention. [8D]

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Graham,
Very interesting article on makeing synthetic castor from cheap vegitable oils, from my vague recolections of high school chemistry the detergent acts as a catalyst to the oil and glycerine to increase saturation of the fats in the oil, it also hydrates the fats when combined with the added water , thus giveing the cheap vegi oil the properties of castor- how fully is beyond my science.
But the question is does this new oil readily disolve/go into solution with just kero or does it also require ether to become soluable ?? The ingrediants to make this syn castor are certainly cheap enough to produce a cheap alternative to castor, and are available EVERYWERE.

Andy,
this syn castor process is the opposite of what is done to produce bio diesel, the by products from which are glycerine and water. So in effect we could first make our bio diesel then take the by products add these to more vegi oil to make our lube. then we would really smell like the local fisn n chip shop or burger joint :)
Stewart

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy,
Getting back to ether, in particular the JD starting fluid, which JD product do you use ? they list 3 types each with different formulars. The 7oz can is 80% ether with butane and propane and lubricateing oil, the 10oz is listed as haveing 30-60% ether with the bulk remaining being hexhane and 1-10% lubricateing oil.
Now Hexane:- from the wikipedia>:" The straight-chain isomer n-heptane is the zero point of the octane rating scale. It is undesirable in petrol, as it burns explosively, causing engine knocking," - from this we can asume its high on the cetane table.
From reading the MDS sheets for the diferent formulations its clear that different fuel mixes are needed for each especially in the area of ignition improvers, as the starting fluids allready contain these in 1 form or other and at varying ratios.
Stewart

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Today was a MOST interesting day. A number of things were learned and one is under suspicion.

First, castor WILL stay mixed with kerosene as long as the temperatures are high enough. It's 12.50 AM right now and the mix that came unglued earlier after getting the Chilly Willy treatment has remained IN solution despite having sat all day. As it warmed up to ambient, after about an hour, I gave the jar a shake and let it sit all this time, 6-8 hours. As can be seen, its clear and fully mixed. No separation line at all. Hope that comes out in the pics. There MAY be something unique with Klotz Benol, their racing castor formula which was formulated for racing bikes and snowmachines. The label says that it'll mix with methanol and gasoline. Does that explain it? The kerosene is hardware store variety meant for camp stoves and the like.

The other thing that was learned, is that the 50 weight aviation, non-detergent oil is equivalent to the castor as far as performance. That run can be seen here.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hopeso

Top end was strong, solid, smooth, no complaints. Idling and throttling became issues. But it wasn't bad, maybe just needs work. However, and that brings us to the third thing.

I flew the aviation oil mix in my .074 this evening. This time I had a lot of time and after MUCH poking and prodding with that stick I mentioned earlier, I got it. Well, briefly. Then I had to fuss with it some more and I got it back. Then it went away. What the *&%$#. What I found was that the screws holding the cylinder in had come loose. One was nearly out and one was just barely bottomed out. That's happened before, a result of repeated loosening and tightening of the head. Most of that was done last week when I went back and forth from glow to diesel testing some new props and glow fuel. SO, tighten it all up and things got a bit better. Only a bit. Did I have a loose cylinder when I ran the ether mix yesterday? Don't know, probably.

So now, with the engine all cinched up, I had a chance to REALLY work on all the elements. As before, with the other engines with no ether, we needed higher compression to start and ether prime was quite necessary. Once started though, the compression screw has to be backed off immediately. What's happening? Why? Well, we made note several times that it appeared that all the engines ran hotter with no ether. Therefore as the temperature comes up, that advances the timing and compression has to be reduced to compensate. Fair enough, what's wrong with that? First it reveals that ether, in significant quantity, contributes a great deal to cooling the engine. This is why, with ether, we don't need to back out the compression so much. Well, even, not at ALL with the .06 and the .074. Except for tonight. With the no ether, av-oil mix, the compression had to be backed WAY off on the .074. So what? Well so what is that this affects the idle.

Here's the deal. Reducing compression forces your mix to go lean and this creates the need to turn out, (richen) the high speed needle to compensate This takes the idle so far rich that even max out on the airbleed screw won't compensate. The proof of this is the sound at idle. Rough, burrp, burrp, pop. It doesn't quit and you do get good transition but you're hanging by your fingernails afraid that the engine will quit on you. Another proof is that as you put the nose up, the idle smooths out to a purr. This doesn't last long as the wing stalls and you fall out, but it's unmistakable.

What to do?? Modify the throttle to go leaner at idle? That can be tried. However, I'm going to approach the problem from the causal end and not the symptomatic end. The medical profession take note. Anyway, the cause? A no ether fuel and hot running. Solution? Provide better cooling. Pictured is a LiteMachines heli heat sink head, reduced and modified to fit the .074 in my small CAP. This engine is fully cowled and needed the heat sink.

Installed on to the Mini-Sport's .074, we're going to give it a go tomorrow.

Stewart,

Our JD dealer has only the one product and it IS the 7 ouncer with 80% ether. That's the one I use. But that hexane sounds GOOD. I'm going to check with the dealer and see if he can get some for me.

I LIKE castor oil and am a believer. The aviation oil performed but does it lube and protect as well? If not, and if I have to order oil, and if castor separates out at low temps, I AM going to give the Cool Power OIL a try. BUT, what if a blend of 25% castor and 75% aviation oil is a good compromise? The one will help the other stay in suspension at low temperatures. Those experiments will have to wait till late fall and winter. Hopefully WWIII hasn't started by then.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Good evening all,

Something Andy mentioned earlier bugged for me a while but I think I have it sorted. When he was talking about mixing Castor and only kerosene he made a comment about the dye in the oil tinting the kero and making it hard to tell if there was separation or not. At first it didn't make and sense to me as any Castor oil I have used has also been a natural light honey colour.

And then he said

And I recalled seeing one of his pictures which clearly showed a Klotz Benol bottle of oil. And I couldn't help but think about all the old stories I had read about Castor not mixing with kerosene.

Light bulb came on, it must be the Benol that Andy is using this allowing him to mix Castor with kerosene.

As an experiment I tried mixing some Sig AA Castor oil 3:1 with garden variety kerosene. Shaken, not stirred and a darn good shaking at that. Intial observation is a very cloudy mix. Not really cloudy however, more like the Castor is in suspension as tiny droplets rather than going into solution with kerosene.

So, it didn't seem to mix very well at all. I will leave it overnight at room temperature and check it in the morning.

More details to follow.

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Hi Stewart,


Never thought of it as synthetic Castor oil but that is a good description. I have been eyeing the various cooking oil products with the thought their use in our fuels, seems like an awful lot of work but they certainly are a lot cheaper than Klotz or Sig castor. I am lucky in that I can get both at the local hobby shop plus there are a couple of good motorcycle shops around that have the Klotz.

Been reading up on biodiesel as well. Very interesting and not that difficult a process. However it does seem like an awful lot work with little realized savings for our use.

However, the 60 weight aviation oil is tempting to try. There shouldn't be any trouble getting that in most area's.

Now, I am particularily interested in the idea of using car/truck diesel which locally for a bit less than $1 per litre compared to $4.50 for kerosone; even a 4 litre jug is still around $12. And it may need less oil added to it also reducing the overall cost.

Lots to try and still more to absorb from Andie's and other's testing.

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

http://www.klotzlube.com/tech/BC-175-1.pdf

If you read the Tech sheet Klotz has for Benol it says the oil will stay in suspension above 35 deg F. This would appear as tiny bubbles in the fuel. It is not dissolving. This is interesting because the fuel doesn't actually dilute the oil and doesn't change it's properties. It also says it dissolves in gasoline up to 7% and methanol up to 20%. Maybe this is OK for us.

A call to Klotz would certainly give a clear answer as they know their oils. I spoke with them about a competitive product at Toledo and they knew what it was and what it could do. I have some Castor 927 by Maxima and it gives similar warnings about mixing and temperature, in less detail.

Greg

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the link and,,,I did just that,,,, called Klotz. Toll free of course, and what a great company. No wonder,, John Klotz is a modeller. I spoke with Jerrod, an RC car guy. He was right friendly and informative. Lacking the tech knowledge, I only caught a small gist of much of it but he wasn't surprised that kero blends with Benol. Not that it was intended to do that but he explained that it's the waxes and soaps and the like in castor that prevents blending. Benol is so very much de-gummed and refined, likely it takes it just there where it WILL blend with kero as long as the temperature is reasonable.

We had a great talk about oils, blends and RATIOS. The link you provided gave specs on using Benol. Note they call for a 20 to 30 to one mix. WHAT?? That's like 5%. Even with average nitro, not more than 20% or so, they had found that very high percentages of Benol were not required. I was sceptical and still am but I DO see another experiment coming. [X(]

Will try a 5% Benol, all methanol mix in the near future on one of my glow Norvels. I WILL tear down the engine to see what broke. [:@] And yes, I have lots of spare parts.

About tiny bubbles. A very careful inspection of my mix shows that it completely dissolved. I did mention the mix as being cloudy at some unspecified temperature and that may have been the droplets in suspension but a good shake and everything went clear and remained that way for over 8 hours at 75 to 80F.

In any event, I'm also going to make up a mix of 5% oil and 93% kero with 2% Amsoil. And test it, just as soon as it stops raining. [:o]

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Good day all,

Good idea actually calling Klotz, information right from the horses mouth and all that.

I checked my castor/kerosene mix this morning and the castor was indeed in solution with the kerosene. Seems the little "bubbles" I was seeing last were indeed little bubbles.

So, I repeated Andy's experiment of putting the mix in the freezer. It didn't take very long nor much of a temperature change before the Castor and kersoene began to separate. The castor oil wouldn not go back into solution until the mix had warmed up to room temperature.

I seems regular Sig Baker AA castor will so into solution with kerosene but only reliably at warmish summer time room temperatures.

I spent some time poking about the net on the subject of Castor oil. Interesting stuff; been around for more than 4000 years. I stumbled across many references to medicinal grade castor and degummed castor oil. Clarenece Lee and many others recommended using only degummed castor oil in our engines but there where some posts on threads on RCU stating that there was no such thing as degummed castor oil but the manufacturers clearly describe some of their grades of castor oil as degummed and Andy made reference to his chat with a gentleman at Klotz who also described their oil as highly degummed.

Perhaps in the early days of model engines and diesels in particular the grade of castor oil commonly used was not as degummed as our more modern oils and that was the reason for the start of the old wives tale that castor oil will not go into solution with kerosene.

In any respect it seems that castor oil and kerosene will mix - Myth Busted! but with certain caveats; keep it warm and it seems that Klotz Benol works a bit better in this than ordinary castor oil.

I couldn't just let Andy be the only one running some tests so I got off my duff and did some running today.

I have messed about with model engines since I was a wee lad. Unlike Andy I have never been so concerned about idling and good throttle response. While those topics are of interest, most of my engine use has and is in control line and climb and glide (1/2A Texaco and Texaco) type of models so throttle and idel have been of little consequence.

I have also gone 30 years without buying a starter but that has all changed. I believed the old Wives Tales about not using a starter with diesels but after ready Andy's and other posts on using starters with diesels I took the plunge and got one and boy an glad I did.

Don't use Starters with Diesels - Myth Busted!!! - again with certain caveats; be careful and think about what you are doing, these leasons from Andy and other users.

I put together a .049 diesel from Cox reedy parts using the RJL diesel head and Davis heavy duty crankshaft, and various other bits and pieces I had laying about. I put a phenolic washer tween the prop drive washer and crankcase so that I could use a starter on this engine.

After a bit of messing around and a couple of tear downs to replace the internal fuel line and fix a leaky tank I got the engine to the point where it would start and run well. Some of my initial problems were caused by it running very over compressed caused the RJL not having enough adjustment to reduce the compression; I added 3 head washers and now is much better.

Initial test's where done initially with my standard mix of fuel 35% ether, 40% kerosene, 25% castor oil, 5% marvel mystery oil, and 2% Amsoil Cetane boost. (I know it doesn't add up to 100% but replace the % with ml and makes it easy to mix)

Starting with the starter was dead easy. After I got the compression and needle valve set I didn't even need to prime. Just fill the tank and put the starter to the engine; a coupe of tries and it was drawing it's own prime/fuel and would start. A short warm up and it would be on peak. Consitent runs at about 11,000 rpm on a Master Airscrew 7x3 prop. Repeat a dozen times just to be sure this all wasn't a fluke.

To carry on the no ether fuel tests, I then tried running this engine on 25% castor oil and 75% kerosene and 2% Amsoil Cetane boost. And, I was able to get it running. It took a bit more trying to get it going using the technique I described above, was very touchy to compression and needle setting and ran noticeably hotter than before. On a hot day like today (hot and muggy) no or low ether fuel will certainly work but I don't think I would have had much luck getting this going on a cool crips Autumn day.

I will have to try low ether and more Cetane boost in various combinations. Awaiting more results of Andy's tests and I will certainly pass on more of my tests as they happen.

Andy, thanks for getting us off our duff's and challanging some of these old Myths and Wives Tales.

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Graham,

Many thanks, you're welcome and glad to have you on board the "sperimentation train". That was fun waren't it? Yes, modern materials, modern chemistry and modern techniques could bring a lot of folks into the fold. We DO have to fight back the "Electric Hoard" don't we? ;) Hey, I"M KIDDING. My servos use motors. :D Some of my best friends are motors. [8D]

OK, castor and temperature. It occurs to me that a lot of what we knew about diesel had its genesis way back in time in Europe and the UK. I might venture to say that "Merry Olde" is not known for it's muggy weather. Hence there's no doubt that the problem of no mix in kerosene was quite true. Not a lot of diesel guys grew up in LaLA land, or Texas y'all, or gator country. Many Brit transplants, surely, and many of them flew diesel and just never discovered how it could be different.

What held me back for some 35 years of my modelling life was the deep mystery of the fuel. Impossible to get even back in the Sixties. Some magazine articles, yes, and didn't Davis get his start back then? But the mystery of diesel, the hard starting, the ether loss, the metal cans, the odd methods of storing and fuelling your engines. On and on and I wondered what the fuss was about. Like many, I wondered why bother? Glow plugs last a season and they're not that expensive. I drove Dave Larkin crazy with questions, prodding, poking and making a pest of myself. Joe Wagner tried, but got fed up with me. Davis tried, but I wouldn't listen. Then a few people, Raj, Dave, Don, Gary, AJ, and others, turned up the dial bit by bit and the bulb got brighter and brighter till I saw the light. It was Raj, though, that was the first to insist that I install a throttle on to a diesel engine of vintage variety. Geez I thought, what a waste. Well, he insisted and I obliged. Around then, I went to the SMALL fly-in in Ottawa and got some genuine, metal can, factory built and correct ingredients, diesel fuel, from Dave. I was more than prepared to pay the price for the gallon but Dave offered me an 8 ounce sample just to try. What a guy. Dave you're a credit to the land of stinky power. Anyway, I took that fuel home and ran Raj's engine. I spent the whole bottle's worth on the learning curve just to get a five minute run but the throttle worked perfectly and the SOUND, on a BIG prop. Lordamighty!! And with TORQUE. You could just feel it blast that air back. And so, I was hooked. Got me a PAW, and some heads for my .049s.

But it wasn't smooth sailing. The PAW didn't throttle to my expectations and yes, they are likely unrealistically high. But why not, I wondered? I had the VA .049 MK1 throttling perfectly on glow. I was still trying to figure that one out when I ventured to dieselize the VA. Three bent rods later and not a single pop and I gave up. No point going diesel if they won't start, never mind throttling well. And those rods were bent while flipping by HAND. Ouch. Well, we all know how dinky that rod was. But, as it turns out, flipping by hand was the problem, along with priming into the exhaust. I won't risk my last remaining MK1s but If I had a few to spare, you never know. But it was the Norvels that let me really do some serious work on diesel. Lots of spares available and the Norvels kept getting better and better. And as I went along, the fuel was being understood more and more. With Norvel's expansion of their line, up to the .40, I just had to give them all a try.

It's been pointed out to me that I admitted to breaking a Norvel .06 crank WAY back in one of my posts. Later on, I discovered that it was actually a Wasp crank installed in a highly modified Norvel. This crank had the intake port cut in a different fashion from Norvel so there's no mistaking it. The point is, that I've NEVER broken a Norvel crank,,, never. And this is with whacking with a starter. This is with taking off, overcompressed, many, many times and putting in an entire flight. This is while flying an 8 X 4 on an .06 on one occasion. Not that YOU won't break something but I've been lucky so far.

Yes, I did bend a few rods during the learning phase. That's when I bitterly complained about the dinky rod Norvel provides. That's when I posted proudly, pictures of custom made, brass bushed rods. Well, I shouldn't have bothered. God, that was a lot of work. Satisfying, but WORK. I've been flying stock rods on two .074s and one .06 for two years now with not a single bent rod. Not after I learned to find the compression setting BEFORE I filled the tank. Not after I discovered that the needle settings can be found on glow first. In some instances, the needle was right on and didn't have to be touched. I've even switched back and forth, glow to diesel to glow, several times, on the same afternoon, and never had to touch the main needle OR the airbleed. Yes, that was on 40% ether,, I'm sure that helped.

ALRIGHT,,, it looks like the rain is letting up. Supper first and then it's off to the test bench. [&:] Still lots of poking and prodding left to do. :D

Thanks again, Graham.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

What do you think DDD is doing right about now?

Greg

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

All of this talk about oil's and various mixtures got me to thinking about some other "conventions" that have been around a very long time.

Firstly there is the amount of oil we put in our fuels - 20% 25% 33% (old English diesel field 1:1:1 mix) and so forth. Recent use of different materials has seen the suggested percent of oil becoming lower and lower right down to 5% with most of the common off the shelf glow fuels being around 18% these days. Time after time the comments you will read when others describe their mixes is to always have some portion of the oil as Castor oil to help in the event of a lean run, to provide that extra bit of protection. Manufactures have a need to be conservative to keep their customer's engines running well, sport fliers want to keep their equipment running well for a long time; racers, well that's something else altogether. I used to build planes to have crash survivability and they where built tough and heavy. That is until I realized that I should be building them to fly instead. Does some of this same mentality apply to the old conventions of type of oil and percentages in our mixes?

I tried to do some ready on synthetic oils and didn't really find a good answer to use them other than our engines run cleaner on them but still castor has some benefit in fuels with synthetic oil. But what mix, how much is optimal. Of course that question is made difficult because we have engines with Ball Bearings and those with plain bearing crankshafts; however, the connecting rod ends are plain bearing and do require proper lubrication in order to survive.

And what of our diesel fuels using kerosene. If we choose to use a synthetic oil, do we really need one that will mix with alchohol is one that mix with gas/kero just as good? The use of ashless aviation engine oil as Andy has describes has merit but is not as easily obtained as the better synthetic or non-synthetic 2 cycle engine oils a lot of which (according to manufacturers we sites) usually contain a lot of additives to promote clean burning.

And just what is Marvel Mystery Oil. I have been using in small percentage in my diesel mix without ill effect. Seems to run cleaner and I am not the only one to use this. A quick search will revel quite a few using Redex which I belive is the same the thing. I haven't found out what it really is but many claim it be primarily detergents. Your guess is as good as mine.

Trouble with synthetics is that there is lots of choice Amsoil, Motul, Klotz, etc. But which one?

So who knows about these oils? what do you think?

I can see that I will have to try some of these fixings and see for myself, details as they develop.


cheers, Graham in embrun near Ottawa Canada.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Graham,

When I was talking with Jerrod, I knew there was something I had forgotten to challenge him on and you've nailed it. The plain bushed rods. It reminds me of a local guy, Pete Meyers, who enjoyed tinkering, like me, but his world was quarter scale, and gas burners. He converted an OS four stroke to spark ignition trying to get the hard way, what we get the easy way, IMO. That is, swing a big prop, at a realistic speed, for a big Tiger Moth. He succeeded and the sound and tone was just about exactly scale, (as I recall ) having seen one fly at an airshow some years prior. Pete mixed his own fuel and experimented quite a bit but he blew a couple of rods. He was trying to see how little oil he could get away with. As I recall, he never had any kind of running problems, no excessive wear and tear, down to,,, and I forget how low he got, but at one point he blew a rod so he upped the oil mix a bit from that and became quite happy with the experiment. So yes, it's not the economy, its the rod.

So that may explain why, despite Klotz's own work, why the oil mix in commercial fuel, is at LEAST 10% for cars and up to 18% minimum for aircraft. But apparently they (Klotz) also took an engine and ran it on 150 to one with the Benol and the engine held together for the duration of the experiment. No doubt, in the air and under load for a season, who knows? I may try that someday, just for fun.

Here's a hint. When you have any fuel of any brand and it's an all castor mix or a blend, what colour is it? Either amber or red, in my experience with four brands. Don't know what that really says except that I have a lot of confidence in any fuel dyed red. But green, (not greed) is good too, in my opinion.

The rain came back and didn't let up appreciably so no fun today. [:o] Maybe tomorrow.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

I am reading this thread with great interest.

The diesel idea is a great one and I experimented with a Davis ST 45 and a PAW .033 years ago. The exhaust note was great and running lamp oil made it very clean. The thing I didn't like was the magic ways of trying to keep the ether in the fuel and the potential cost to run a large 1.60 cu in engine. Otherwise diesel would be for me.

The idea of running a Diesel without ether makes it sound much more user friendly and less expensive.

It would be cool to try a Turbo plug equipped contra piston on a large diesel conversion to see if you could light it off with external heat and not have to chase settings. I don't know how you would energize the plug and move the contrapiston. Maybe the plug could be set toward the outer edge of the combustion chamber if the engine was big enough.

The other way would be to make the compression adjustment like on a Enya four stroke diesel (move the rear bearing to increase or decrease head clearance) and use a glow plug to get things going.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

One more thing.

The lamp oil in the ST 45 would make the coolest white smoke like I was running Super dri smoke oil.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy,
Heres a great explanation on oil's and why castor is so good ,:- http://modelenginenews.org/faq/index.html#qa5 , well worth the read.
Stewart

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Skypilot,

Actually, I've designed just such a device. I tried it, a bug surfaced and am making a change. This will be used on a Norvel .15 and yes, a turbo plug will be used. This eliminates the possibility that the threads of a conventional plug might interfere with the results.

Two contra-pistons have been made, one with a trumpet shaped head for glow and one flat for use as a diesel. But in fact, both will be tried on both fuels to explore all possibilities.

I've been getting hints that compression changes affect the needles of glow opposite to that of diesel. If this can be established as fact, this might explain much when we have problems with our engines.

This experiment is going to get serious and will require a scientific approach to carry it out. Working on that now.

Some variables to consider.

Glow fuel content, as in nitro.
Diesel fuel content. Ether, kero, oil, Amsoil percentages. This is a biggie.
Plug heat ranges/brands.

A hundred combinations to fool with, record, mull over, conclusions to be drawn.

Fun AND work.

But that Enya. That must be new, I haven't kept up.

And hey, thanks for the tip on getting a diesel to smoke. I wonder if there might be an additive that would enhance the effect. I remember blowing a head gasket on my Corolla many years ago. Spectacular.

Say, would a bit of water added to our fuel help? Hurt? Do ANY thing?

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Did anyone read the cloumn about engine oils in RC Report magazine? With the new(Aussie, I think) engine columnist maybe last winter. He is all synthetic, all the way, a Coolpower oil man, but still runs castor in diesels.

I'll have to see if I can get a copy of that artiicle.

Greg

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Diesels smoke when the fuel isn't completely burned. A freezing cold injected diesel will throw white smoke like crazy if glow plugs or air heater doesn't work. This is actually fuel vapor. I had similar smoke with my FS40 early on before I figured out it was so rich that only the excessive compression kept it running.

The Enya 41-4CD doesn't have compression adjustment as far as I know. Mine is here but I have not picked picked it up yet. He is elduing to the idea used on this engine.

http://modellmotoren.homepage.t-onli...VT1D-engl.html

The crank runs in an eccentric which the lever rotates to adjust crank centerline distance to the head for compression adjustment.

Greg

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Stewart, WOW,

Thanks for the link. Much good information on oil AND machine work. Also, compression ratios and how they need to be matched to the fuel you're using. Harder to do with glow but EASY with diesel.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

For several reasons, C/R is one of those parameters where more is not necessarily a good thing. First, the work done compressing the cylinder content requires power, so as little as you can get away with might seem a good thing. Next, the fuel/air mix needs to begin burning before the piston reaches TDC. But we don't want the pressure build-up to be too great before the piston reaches TDC (more power loss). Then there's ignition enhancers to think about. Glow engine fuel generally contains some nitro-methane (apart from "FAI" fuel which cannot contain nitro). This advances the point at which the mix begins to burn. Dave Gierke's book on two-strokes relates a tale of how he was running mid-field at an R/C pylon race, when he accidentally tanked with FAI fuel and suddenly blitzed the opposition, setting a top score for the meet to that point (the others were running the "regulated" nitro fuel). Reasoning that this was because the nitro-less FAI fuel was better suited to his engine C/R, he reduced the C/R by adding a head shim, then set an even faster top score using the regulated nitro fuel. See? Matching the C/R to optimise the ignition point to the fuel is more important than achieving a high C/R.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

Greg,

Thanks for the input. Looks like that CP Oil is a winner. But he still runs castor in diesel. Would love to see the article.

And that SMALL, diesel with the eccentric crank. Neat. Now THIS one could have a glow plug installed. And it's a four stroke,,,,, [8D]

Oh, yes, for all the Aussies having a hard time getting Amsoil, my query to A1 oil returned this response.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

Hi Andy,
Sorry about the slow response, i am in middle of huge move back to
broken hill and am
having to check emails from remote pc.
I have plenty of Cetane Boost in stock and it will definetly give your
Diesel a
boost and keep it clean as well.
It is in storage for next few days but am fairly sure it is $11.00 for
around a half a
litre, but it does go a long way.
Please let me know where you are and i will give full quote inc postage.

Thanking you,
Peter Crossing
A1 OILS - Australia


Quoting andy woitowicz2 <[email protected]>:

> Gents,
>
> As shown here, http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/acb.aspx at the
> American website, is this product available in Australia?
>
> Andy

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy,

Sounds cool.

Greg,

I think the Enya uses the same setup'