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SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

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Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Old 12-11-2010, 07:53 PM
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combatpigg
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Default SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

It's 2010 and I just got around to hacking up my 2005 attempt at a speed plane into little toxic waste chunks that fit into a garbage can.

Here we go again.........

I just want to get something thin and simple into the air and see what happens.
This time the horsepower is there........
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Old 12-12-2010, 04:25 AM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Nice way of doing the cutting, especially when your by yourself.
Will be watching, its about time somebody started an actual speed plane thread again instead of all the propjet blurbs.
Old 12-12-2010, 02:04 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Want me to bag that wing in CF?
Old 12-12-2010, 10:20 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Is that what some guys are doing? Sounds expensive. I like Ed Smith's recipe. He sheets the wings with balsa and minimal FG underneath along the TE. Then a liteply/CF sandwich spar is inlaid full depth. Then a few partial layers of 2 oz FG and 3/4FG on top.
Figure that a plane like the one I'm building won't see half the stress of a pylon racer and I need to remember that as the material bill is put together. I will lay some CF cloth into the fuselage.
I've got a little bit of carving done on the fuselage plug. I used cedar. It works easily, but it also dents easily.
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:36 AM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Looking good so far. Your layup schedule for the wing sounds good CP.
Old 12-17-2010, 06:29 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Thanks Dave. It's easy to go overboard. Last year my flying wing with the multi-layers of FG, CF spar, etc. ended up so heavy that I ended up Swiss cheesing it with 30 one inch holes and it still held up to a Jett .46 [for several flights] before folding.
This wing...the foam panels were joined with 3M77
2 oz cloth, 2 inches wide was 3M77'd to the trailing edge [top & bottom]
The center section has a strip of 2 oz cloth
3/32" balsa sheets glued [West Systems epoxy] over the whole works [top & bottom], then bagged.
The leading edge and wing tips got block sanded perpendicular and true with a 2x4 block wrapped with a 50 grit sanding belt. Use the work table to support the sanding block as you move it back and forth against the edges of the wing.
Then balsa stock was Gorilla glued to cap off the leading edge and tips.
1 inch dowel was inlaid where the wing screws will go.
A 30 inch long slot was cut in the wing for a 1/8" thick hemlock spar. Sitka spruce is better, but this will have to do....
The leading edge and tips have 1.4 oz cloth 3M77'd and epoxy'd before the wing goes in for the vacuum bag session
I'm waiting on kevlar cloth to arrive [for hinging the ailerons] before going any further.
The cowl plug got a coat of epoxy
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:00 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Wasn't it you that use to say "If you don't fold a wing every once in a while, your building too heavy"

Always got a kick out of that.
Old 12-17-2010, 08:26 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

.093 thick wood and glass...Jimminy Crickets man! [X(]
I would've sent you some Kevlar if you wanted.

You comin out to the rally or going all the way to Krautlaund with that thing?
Old 12-17-2010, 08:27 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

That was me. When I first got into AMA control line combat 25 years ago, the entire first batch me and a friend built would fly fine for a given amount of time but spontaneously explode with no warning. IIRC, we used pink foam and a full depth 1/16" plywood spar. The wings were about 1 3/4" thick at the high point. The Fox.36s would fly them about 100 mph.
RTF, about 19-20 ozs.
Anyway, our strategy was to fly them at our first ever contest with our fingers crossed. There wasn't time to build a better batch.
It was hotter than ever at the contest and the planes were blowing up sooner than ever...like during the first manuever after the horn was sounded. They sounded like a bull whip cracking.
Lots of laughs for 100 some odd onlookers....what made matters worse is we had the only PINK planes out there, maybe the only pink planes in the history of AMA C/L combat....
We were extremely embarrassed and one of the "old pros" came over to console us with his sage advice, "If you don't fold one now and then. you're probably building too heavy"
Old 12-18-2010, 07:41 AM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Vic, thanks for the offer. By the time I sanded the balsa skin to the final shape, it's quite a bit thinner in spots.
Today, I'll tackle the stab. This wing is 400 square inches and 1/7th the area is 56 sq in. So, I'll play with some sizes that look similar to the shape of the tapered wing. I'm thinking 14 inches is enough span for a stab made out of 1/4" thick balsa.
Old 12-18-2010, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

What do expect speed to be CP?
I see your LE is sharp(ish), should cut like a knife.
Good stuff.
Old 12-18-2010, 05:34 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

I'll be using a AAC Nelson.40 with 190 degrees of exhaust and Eliminator 7x7 props to begin with.
Pretty much the same as what was used on the Screamin' Demon.
I've got a basic expectation of 200 mph and more would be a bonus.. The average FAI pylon racer with the MB40 engine on straight alky does about 210 mph. I don't know what the fastest speed a Nelson ever hit.
With 2 engines and enough spare parts to almost cover 2 overhauls, this project has a good chance of flying.....but not much room for engine handling mistakes. It doesn't take much of an error in judgement to burn one of these up and spare AAC parts aren't made by Nelson any more.
Old 12-18-2010, 06:06 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Looks like the wing will be pretty robust...

I noticed you mentioned plug as far as the fuselage, going with a molded fuselage?
Old 12-18-2010, 06:32 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Yep, molded fuselage. I hate to be wastefull, [considering what goes into the molds] but I figure molded is the best way to conserve interior space and get the best strength -to- weight. I did a fuselage last year with 1/16" balsa, then glassed it inside and out. It turned out pretty good, but this long, skinny, speed plane fuselage would be too tricky for me to glass inside.
Old 12-18-2010, 06:38 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Wow!
I think your right about this being the best way to get strength to weight.
Going with glass or something more exotic?
I have yet to get the final finishing touches on my "attempt".
Here is how it looks right now.


You should wind up with a very interesting aircraft...
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Old 12-18-2010, 07:08 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

WOW! She turned out great !! Looks like it's ready to fly?
Hopefully Mike Conner is doing OK and will be able to witness what developes with your take on that design. Don't forget that there seems to be some kind of a curse.......

Between the old "Let's Build a Speedplane" thread and sahartman's thread about buildingthe Q40 "Proud Bird" in the Pylon Forum, this is what 99% of my reference/guidance is for this project.

slomo-77, Der Stuermann, ILJ.....have all contributed heavily to what I'm attempting here. It is true that only 1/3 of what you read the first time gets processed in......I find myself going back to those threads with pen and paper to get the more details and "weigh out" the differing opinions.

Old 12-19-2010, 11:00 AM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

It is close to finished, a couple more coats of clear and then I can do the accent colors on the fin stripes (florescent orange) they are now white, and the same wing pattern on the bottom as the top in the orange as well. That just leaves the battery hatch needing a coat of paint, Iw ant it to look like the cargo bay doors on the shuttle (you may have noticed the shuttle like paint job) and it will be ready to go as far as the finish. I've taken a lot of time trying to get as smooth a finish on it as possible, and have am just now sanding it before the last coat of clear lacquer goes on, the orange is an enamel so it goes on last so right after I buff out the last clear coat it goes on. Other than that all that I have to do is install the servos and linkage and it will be ready to try out. I just hope that the structure I used helps the flutter issue that took out Mike's first one, and limited the top speed of the second version. I was concerned about the stiffness of my control surfaces so I embedded some .02 carbon fibber rods in the elevon skins, so it is about as rigid as I could make it not using a lot of composite construction. From the beginning I had it in my mind if it held together I could use it for a plug to make a mold. I had sent Mike that same photo, he likes how it looks, he has taken some time off from flying for a bit but we have stayed in touch. He has two other versions of the design ready to go, one is close to his first two versions, and the second one is a BWB version, both of them came out pretty nice, it will be interesting to see how those work out.

Your design looks really well thought out, it clear to see you have worked out a lot of details before you started.
I think your 200 estimate is very conservative...
It will be interesting to see where it tops out.
Any estimate as to the AUW for this bird?
Old 12-19-2010, 11:27 AM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

I think 4 pounds is the round figure to shoot for. That's probably 3# 10 oz before paint?
Old 12-19-2010, 11:36 AM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

That sounds like it will work out pretty good, it looks like a lot of wing so your wing loading and AOA both will be pretty low.
Old 12-19-2010, 01:27 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Awesomeness!
Old 12-22-2010, 04:46 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

SRV, thanks for the vote of confidence. At this stage, much time has been spent, but you don't see much results.
The wing has been finished for now. There still is lots of detail work before it's ready to paint. It came out weighing 13 ozs.
After 5 or 6 Bondo sessions with my finger for a spreader and 50 grit wrapped around a hunk of 1/2" copper tubing, the wing fillets are coming along. They will need to be glassed before the wing can be popped free.
The stab needs to be glassed yet, then fitted to the fuselage.
Still lots of work ahead before I can make a fuselage mold.
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:18 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Time, and lots of it... spent on these things isn't there CP, but its starting to really look like something, like a Speed Cup Racer.
Cool!
Old 12-22-2010, 05:19 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

This is what will make the plane go up and down.

3/32" music wire, brass sheet and a couple of brass "buttons". Silver soldered.

I'm not sure if this will work with a "top skin" hinge. It might be smarter to go with a centered hinge?
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:13 PM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Center Otherwise you need to make the rod able to release from the glue. I've had trouble like this with some of my V-tails.
Old 12-23-2010, 06:49 AM
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Default RE: SPEED PLANE ATTEMPT

Nice!
I'd keep the hinges centered as well...

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