Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Famously fast deltas currently out of production or defunct:
Holy Smoke (kit)
Whiplash (arf)
Phenom (arf)
Diamond Dust (kit)
Outlaw (kit) then (arf)
Screaming Demon (?) (kit)

Sad [&o]

Can you think of others?

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Most have tried the limited market and and gave up. Production costs, sales and profit margin.

Holy smoke (midwest kit?) long out of production. Midwest has not added to the product line in a very long time.

Whiplash ACM has been swamped with orders for target drones.

Phenom... well mine was very heavy. 5.5 pounds never flew on a speed prop. I dont know if Oakdale is still around

Not to many guys want hand launch - belly land planes.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

The Mach Racer not as fast as the others due to its thick wing.

Sold by hobby people is no long available.

The Swallow Jet and Falcon clones from NitroPlanes are both out of stock...
Copies of the Weston UK Velocity & Magnum.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

The Holy Smoke at one time was from Top Flight then perhaps Midwest. It may have been cloned as a Skyfire 40 (discontinued) by Four Pi Inc.(gone) and sold through Radical RC Kits.

Forgot a few, the Laser Arrow delta (discontinued), remember the black gold and white tiger scheme? I'd like to get a "cherry" one of these, Ive got a K&B 1.00 DF and tuned pipe laying around.
And the Bullet, that clear red thing, mostly done as electric thou.

Found one, Wild Wiz 40 http://www.radicalrc.com/category/Kits-145

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Yeah it really stinks that they seemed to have dried up, but I'd have to agree that the amount of work and production costs for the amount of profit margin is not good for small operation kit manufacturers (Screamin' Demon) comes to mind.
Oh well have to do more scratch building I guess.
My Screamin' Demon is still alive and well after a great flying season with it!

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Where HAVE all the deltas gone....?

That's good question.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Is the BTE kit or ARF in production ???

It was big has landing gear but not what you call a speed plane...

I had a second hand kit built some time ago fun to fly easy to land.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

The first couple of Diamond Dusts I ever built were just scaled off of build thread photos I saw at this forum....way back when I first joined RCU. Those planes sure seemed pretty awesome with OS.32 power.
I flew one once at a new construction job site at night shift break time and skid landed it [with aluminum plates glued to the belly] on a freshly paved concrete parking lot. It looked cool to see it skid land and the screech it made was pretty loud. It was cool to see it flying long passes over pavement instead of over a hay field.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

The BTE Delta Vortex kit is still available, but currently out of stock. (It must still be popular, as they seem to sell out periodically and then re order. At least twice in the last couple years.)

I just got an Outlaw, but they only had the U.S. Navy version left in stock. They seem to sell out and reorder a lot, too.

I think deltas would be more popular if more guys understood their flying qualities- very broad flight envelope. If the wing is not too thick, they are very fast, but can be slowed down to a walk for landing because of the deltas ability to fly at high aoa.

I got into deltas with laddie Mikulasko's "Arrow". It has a thinner wing than his Northstar and is quite fast (90mph) on a 46. I recently got foam core wing panels for it from flyingfoam.com, and am building a second hull with electric power. The hull is really easy to build- just a great big box with an engine stuck on the back. The wings were the tedious part, and with foam cores, that becomes a non issue.

I like the Arrow so much that I designed my own land based fuselage with retractable landing gear. ("Bullet") It is loads of fun.

Deltas rule. I can fly my Outlaw out of a baseball field surrounded by fences, and yet it will do over 70mph and flies away by itself on launch on a Rimfire 25/4S.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

The Outlaw is one of the best deltas, not overly fast but very agile. I started building them 10 years ago when Jerry was selling his first version of the plans. Right now I have three versions of it flying, An ARF in the Blue Angels theme, A highly modified one on floats and a scratch enlarged one with twin MVVS .40 pylon motors. I also have two resized/ highly modded DD's, one small with a .61 and one small with a S400 motor. I don't consider the Northstar a delta but I have one of them too. And a couple of Magnums... Deltas are still fun.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Do Lanier Shrikes count?

(they have stab-elevator just a bit aft of the wing)

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I don't count them as delta's. For me a delta has elevons.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

have

Yep, you wont be rolling in gold making RC kits or planes, you got to have passion to make and share something amazing or....gov. grant money. It takes time and skill that most don't or can't pay for. I love kits or arf's, they're a deal. When you buy the low volume materials to scratch build yourself, it's very costly when you add up all the nickle and dimes.

The Whiplash and more so the Phenom were on the bit heavy side which make them a harder to get airborne without planting it in . Both are probably the fastest out of a dive because of weight, low and clean frontal area. Around the field thou, the Diamond Dust and Demon are much more agile if one knows how to set up the throws.

Hand launch and belly landings have always been things that I don't look forward to, but for the most part have conquered. Gee, I can't imagine why a newbie wouldn't want to let go of a screaming meat cutter! But I guess that's what weeds out the speed junky from the sport flyer.

Mostly, I think it's fear of speed and crashing why there are fewer glow powered deltas are sold. Also, are the mistaken beliefs that they are hard to fly or have bad flying characteristics, nothing can be further from the truth, it's all in how radical you want it and throttle setting. Fly a properly setup Outlaw and your a delta fan for life. Some of the larger wheeled Deltas are real puddycats.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I don't disqualify the Shrike as a delta because it has a tail, but because the root chord of the wing is too short in relation to the tip chord to give it the high alpha delta characteristics (due to vortex flow). If you get a bit slow with the Shrike, and get the nose up too high, it will stall and spin just like a straight wing aircraft. (Experience talking :D) Deltas just sink when you do that.

An example of a true delta with a tail is the A-4 Skyhawk, and another is the Northstar. I'm sure you guys can come up with others.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I had a Shrike 40 ARF with a Webra 55, I sold it before I killed it. It had a nasty high speed stall if you pulled hard. It also liked to land a bit hot, if it was too slow it would stall and splat without notice. Looked cool. Yup, not a delta.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I killed a Whiplash with a terminal flat spin. I slowed it down(my first mistake) to see what it would do with sticks in the different corners (mistake #2). I was real high, so I thought I could get it out of anything (there's #3), well I tried everything and only managed to spin it faster. Defiantly no joy when it went spat on the tarmac. Amazing how fast it could descend with that much area presented in the direction of travel. It ain't no Outlaw, that will pop right out.

The Whiplash was a tough plane, cut a lot of brush and dirt clods with it, but it couldn't take the punch from the bottom.[&o]

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I loved my Whiplashes very tough!

Even better for the desert flyers...the bottom skin does not shred like monokote.

Now if Composite-ARF could build a light weight , under 4 lbs all up, x and sell for ~ $200.00. Woo Hoo!

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

The Ultra Coat on the Diamond Dust does not hold up well to a startled 20 pound kitty as I found out. Other than that, I replace the covering every 170 flights or so, along with the CA hinges, Soon I'll have to do the third recover on the same dust! Dang thing wont be killed. Always doing little patches on the bottom even with music wire skids.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I am just building a screamin deamon, I found here on RCU.
And I had a hard time finding any delta. To the costs - this one does not come with any hardware, no pushrods, hinges, screws.
Basically just some balsa sheets and profiles and the laser cut ribs. Most deltas are designed very simple, so I don't know
why they all disappear. Delta kits shouldn't be that expensive.
Maybe the chinese read this and put an ARF together for 50 bucks - I'd take one ;)

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

This one might be interesting. I considered it before I bought the Outlaw:

http://www.radicalrc.com/category/JGRC-E-Kits-244

A bit on the small side- 400 size electrics or what looks like an .061, but maybe it could be scale up???

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

That's a good looking model...!

I've built a few in that size range for .049-.061 and they are great fun.

I crammed a OS CVA .15 into one with 22 inches of span [that was originally powered by a COX .049] and it flies just fine, even though at first glance it looks like too small of a plane.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

A heavy Whiplash in a spin would have it's flywheel effect pretty hard to put a stop to. I've had deltas that opposite rudder couldn't stop from spinning and even with full down elevon just continued to land like a frisbee.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

i just got a holy smoke at a yard still in the orig. box i built one 30 yrs a go

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

i have 2 balusa usa deltas one with a byron ducted fan the other with a pusher both flys great

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I dunno, pig. I have a .15 CVA on my Sig Wonder, and it's way overpowered. You just may have the record with that combination. Don't blink your eyes, man.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

That's the best engine wings I've ever seen, lol, love it.:D

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

APC makes a prop that the CVA .15 really likes....6.5x6 or 6.5x5.5...something in that range.

The best it ever did on that plane was 133 mph, which has to be the most down and dirty way to get a CVA .15 up to 133...?

I never did bother to make that thing look pretty...I didn't think it would survive the maiden, but it's still alive and ready for more abuse.
Balsa wood, kite tube spars, glass cloth and a little glue is amazing stuff

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I see you're experementing with those one-bladed props? :D Todd

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Balsa USA: Force One Enforcer and Northstar... all should be available

NitroPlanes: Kangaroo (semi-clone of the Force One, the Enforcer is the 60-90 size)

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

PICTURE ON RIGHT: I have built the Balsacraft "Rapier" with a Nelson Q40 that was a bit on the big side for a .40 size delta but the speed was impressive coming out of the split-S. Shown here in yellow. I have two kits still on my shelf.

PICTURE ON LEFT: Mike's R/C "Screamin Demon" is light and IMHO a better platform than the DD ever was. Shown here in flourescent orange and black/white checkers. Again my engine of choice the Nelson Q40. Documented 187 in SLF. Many can "claim" speeds of over 200 MPH but having proof is another milestone for anything above 180 in SLF as Combatpigg will acknowledge. This model weighed in a 2.9 pounds RTF and was awesome!

PICTURE IN MIDDLE: I love the "Shrike". Not a delta but one of the very best handling models in this arena for 150+ MPH thrills. Shown here in red/white/black with another great powerplant. The K/B 7.5cc RE DF. I have 4 unopened Shrikes on the shelf. One is going on the building board this winter. It will be a full mod build with thinner airfoil and a few other "tricks" to make it lighter and cleaner aerodynamically.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Speedy, hard to improve on the looks of that Rapier..!

That model should have sold very well if they did a better job of getting the word out. Advertising cost is a big gamble, though.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Can anyone tell me a good CG starting-point for a small, fast delta, as a percentage of MAC?

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Here are my current Shrikes, both I kit-built. They fly as well as expected, and are surprisingly easy to launch and land. The other pic is my EuroMach. 19lb. turbine powered. I built this all-wood kit in about two weeks and flew it shortly after. It flew OK after some tweaking, but didn't slow down worth a damn. A real floater. I sure hope the Outlaw isn't gone for good, as I was about to order another. My first was in the Navy colors, but was kinda hard to see at times. Think I'll go for the red and white this time. My first one died when an elevon servo packed up. I've had 2 or 3 Laser Arrows. Not super-fast, but cheap and fun. Used piped .32's on all.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Those are some real nice planes...
I used you idea on catapults to build one for my PQ Stingray, my version of one of Mike Connors planes.
A hybrid Delta/Flying wing.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

What I wouldn't give to have another Laser Arrow!

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

rcguy59:

I can only provide you with what the CG's are on my Arrow and Outlaw, and there's quite a bit of difference.

The drawing shows how it's done for the Arrow: root chord is measured on the centerline; MAC is plotted on the wing and the CG extended out to where they intersect; the distance from the LE to the intersection is the actual CG location; CG distance from LE divided by MAC is the percentage.

Arrow: 9%

Outlaw: 15%

I think angle of sweep on the LE has a lot to do with this. The Arrow is 40 degrees, the Outlaw 50. The greater the sweep angle (assuming the tip chord doesn't get too small) the greater the wing area aft, which is what determines pitch stability on a delta.

Hope this helps. I had fun doing it. :D

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

As long as we're including Shrikes, here's mine with my Outlaw.

This is my FIFTH Shrike, built from the plans and a set of rib templates that a fellow RCUer was kind enough to provide. Previous were a kit 40; kit 10 (Norvel .061); ARF 40; kit 10 (Astro 020). This ones a keeper. The trick appears to be keep them as light as possible by moving everything aft and using the lightest possible powerplant, and balance right on the recommended CG.

I used 3/8 CF tubes for spars on this one, as square holes are hard to drill in the ribs. :D I've mixed a touch (less than 1/8") of up elevator trim with the flap switch on my Tx, so she establishes a nice nose up angle on launch. Stock OS46AX on the factory muffler. Turns a 10x6 APC about 14,500. Only about 80mph, but that's way fast enough for me. I tend to prop my deltas for thrust rather than speed. Thrust is what gets me out of trouble when I get into it.

rcguy59: the Outlaw is currently available in the Navy scheme like this, the others are sold out. I'm sure they've got another order in for more, but it could be awhile. (I think the last time was about 6 months.)

My outlaw is converted to E power, using a Rimfire 25 and a 4S 3300 pack. Took a couple days to build the nacelle/cowl onto the nose to hide the motor and protect it from dirt. (Sand in an outrunner = instant lockup. Only compressed air seems to clean it all out.)

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Here's one I'd forgotten about. This is a composite Shrike 10. I got it in a trade about 3 years ago and its been waiting ever since. It weighs 21 oz. as is, so I'm thinking .32-.36, piped of course. I built a Shrike 10 from a kit several years ago with a shortened nose, 3/4" dowel spar and .32 engine. I used to fly it just to scare the old guys. :) I don't know who made the mold for this thing but the buddy I got it from might. He said this is one of just a few before they lost interest or something. One of these days I'll get it going. It's unique!

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

Thanks, Mustang. I've had both and they each flew well in their own way, though the Outlaw is by far my favorite. I'm looking to do a sort of Outlaw clone for a Norvel .074 and I'd also like to scale one up for a .77 DF engine and pipe I have. I appreciate the info.

RE: Where have all the deltas gone?
 

I actually took 2nd place in static judging at the TOLEDO R/C Expo a couple years ago with the "Rapier" in Sport Plane. This plane would be awesome with a JETT 60LX rear exhaust. The bigger prop would help with the initial launch and getting it out of the hole better. Takes a hard throw to get a 4+ pound model on it's way with only a 7" diameter prop! Once it was on it's way for the first 100' it was like someone shot it out of a cannon. After the first turn out to the left it was haulin the mail!!

The Screamin' Demon is still the hottest delta I have ever flown.

BTW...I would be interested if anyone had a JETT 60 LX RE they wanted to get rid of.

Here is a picture of the business end of the K/B powered Shrike and the Q40 Screamin Demon.

SPEEDY